Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please don't just paste tweets of Brexiters looking silly here please. This is a discussion forum, not a link repository.

Leroy42

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

J Mysterio

Alistair Campbell has an article in the Guardian today about being not just 'post truth', but also 'post shame'.

Farage, Johnson et all have been caught out on so many lies and deciets but just keep going, no shame no embarrassment. Whatever about Johnsons dead cat on the table comment. This stuff also relates to Trump.

It's this dumbing down of discourse which leads any idiot to think they are capable of being a leading politician. Theres an unbelievable gaggle in the EU parliament now. I would love to see a deep analysis on the Brexit Party candidates - a thorough expose if you will - where do they come from? What are their qualifications, their experience? But, there they are, voted in in huge numbers, not a bother. No manifesto needed, just shout 'Brexit! We wont Brexit!'.

Political discourse and the calibre of politicians themselves have really gone right down the toilet. At least in France the Gilet Jaunes were entertained as far as the protests were concerned, but when it actually came to sending them to the EU parliament? Haha, no.

First Up

J Mysterio wrote:

Alistair Campbell has an article in the Guardian today about being not just 'post truth', but also 'post shame'.

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

J Mysterio

First Up wrote: »

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

I guess it's a fair point, but at least on Brexit, he is on point.

Stop moaning ffs

First Up wrote: »

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

No harm in taking the advice of a former master poisoner when he’s trying to alert you to novice but powerful poisoner at work

lawred2

First Up wrote: »

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

If anyone else said what he said - would you still disagree? The above reads like playing the man and not the ball.

J Mysterio

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

Bizarre. Do you have a link?

Professor Moriarty

J Mysterio wrote: »

I guess it's a fair point, but at least on Brexit, he is on point.

My enemy's enemy is my friend.

Leroy42

J Mysterio wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

Bizarre. Do you have a link?

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1150835579925540864?s=09

Joe_ Public

If both Johnson and Hunt are insisting on the backstop being removed, does that make no deal a more likely outcome than a GE? How likely would either be to pass a vote of confidence on the basis they were intending to run the clock down to a halloween crash out?

I believe in the HoL today they were discussing the Northern Ireland bill and debating a crucial amendment that would ensure the Commons had to sit in September and October, thus ruling out the option of proroguing. Not sure what has happened but it did have cross party support. Also, heard Andrew Adonis on sky earlier insisting parliament would pass legislation in october not just to rule out no deal but to enable a referendum. I don't know the basis of his conviction on that, but i dont know that it can be ruled out either as we seem to be moving into unprecedented territory here.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Pedant that I am, I went to their About page:

....

Love this bit:

After the referendum, Leave voters were accused of being either thick, racist or too old to matter. .

A sentiment that reflects the opinion of about 50% of the UK population and about 98% of the posters in this thread.

Cookie_Monster

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand this post correctly : NZ lamb is cheaper in the UK than it is in NZ?

Yep, even with transport costs it is much cheaper, literally half the price and GST or not thats crazy. The quality is better too in general, all the best stuff gets exported from here

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/sainsburys-new-zealand-lamb-chops--basics-800g
GBP5.70 per kg is NZD 11
https://shop.countdown.co.nz/shop/browse/meat/lamb/lamb-chops
NZD19 per kg, 16.5 before tax...

anyway, off topic at this stage, apologies.

ancapailldorcha

Posts deleted. No more insults please.

A Dub in Glasgo

Hunt and Johnson are leading the UK up the garden path on the backstop

J Mysterio

John Crace on latest Tory leadership debate. I'm sad I missed it and must find it soon.

Guardian wrote:

Brexit dominated the first 45 minutes and as expected neither man had any answers. But then a lack of realism has been the default position of both Boris and Hunt throughout and they weren’t about to change now. Brexit was something that would happen providing you believed in it enough. What had been missing was someone who would look the EU in the eyes and tell them we were mad and self-destructive enough to trash the entire country to get things done. Of course there would be casualties along the way, but true patriotic Brits should be prepared to lay down their lives so that everyone who survived could be made poorer.

On and on the nonsense went. Both men unilaterally ditched the Northern Ireland backstop and put their faith in alternative border technologies that did not yet exist. Boris even promised to take back control by increasing immigration. Not exactly what many Brexiters had voted for, but trust in politics is now so low that no one really cares what anyone says. Coherence is a state to which no one now even aspires. Lying is now truth.

Link

Professor Moriarty

J Mysterio wrote: »

John Crace on latest Tory leadership debate. I'm sad I missed it and must find it soon.


Link

Very succinct but captures their disingenuous stupidity beautifully.

Asitis2019

Why is our own parliament not sitting for a full eight weeks. It is ridiculous that parliament resumes only a couple of weeks before the budget and six weeks before Brexit.

J Mysterio

Asitis2019 wrote: »

Why is our own parliament not sitting for a full eight weeks. It is ridiculous that parliament resumes only a couple of weeks before the budget and six weeks before Brexit.

Not much for us to discuss RE Brexit to be fair. Ball is firmly in the UK's court. Almost feels like nothing is worth talking about besides as this is the major issue of the day and changes everything.

We are currently just past the mid point of the 2nd extension granted the UK in their application to leave the EU under the formal article 50 process.

April, May, June, and half of July gone. August, September and October left. The Tory leader will be decided soon and we can look forward to a triumphal parade and lots of fist waving.

Use this time wisely said Tusk...

Strazdas

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Hunt and Johnson are leading the UK up the garden path on the backstop

It does tend to rubbish the 'Ireland should have conceded on the backstop' stuff. Weren't Dan O'Brien & Co saying we should have offered concessions like a time limit etc? Now Hunt and Johnson are saying even that wouldn't be acceptable to them.

J Mysterio

Strazdas wrote: »

It does tend to rubbish the 'Ireland should have conceded on the backstop' stuff. Weren't Dan O'Brien & Co saying we should have offered concessions like a time limit etc? Now Hunt and Johnson are saying even that wouldn't be acceptable to them.

It seems shocking that they have said this. You just feel as though it has been just casually thrown that out there: "oh, I would never accept a backstop". Eh... this is a fundamental principle underpinning the WA.

As far as I'm aware, the EU have stated unequivocally(?) that there will be no third extension if not for a very good reason e.g. a second referendum or a GE.

The big question is the potential of further extensions though, I suppose. The EU is still surviving and continuing in its work, despite "the saboteurs". Might they, on the EU side, actually be prepared to draw this out for some time? In theory, the longer the issue is drawn out, the more desperate it becomes for the UK as regards the uncertainty etc. It is not quite as painful in for the EU.

As time passes and matters become more clear, the truth really dawns, or it should trickle down eventually. Already opinion polls are swinging. This might yet all be stopped and be a terribly embarrassing situation that we should all forget about and never mention, like 'the war'.

But a potential 3rd extension? It would potentially become an election of Johnson Tory Brexit V Corbyn Labour Brexit, and at that point there would have to be detail on both sides. If at all possible.

Strazdas

J Mysterio wrote: »

It seems shocking that they have said this. You just feel as though it has been just casually thrown that out there: "oh, I would never accept a backstop". Eh... this is a fundamental principle underpinning the WA.

As far as I'm aware, the EU have stated unequivocally(?) that there will be no third extension if not for a very good reason e.g. a second referendum or a GE.

The big question is the potential of further extensions though, I suppose. The EU is still surviving and continuing in its work, despite "the saboteurs". Might they, on the EU side, actually be prepared to draw this out for some time? In theory, the longer the issue is drawn out, the more desperate it becomes for the UK as regards the uncertainty etc. It is not quite as painful in for the EU.

As time passes and matters become more clear, the truth really dawns, or it should trickle down eventually. Already opinion polls are swinging. This might yet all be stopped and be a terribly embarrassing situation that we should all forget about and never mention, like 'the war'.

But a potential 3rd extension? It would potentially become an election of Johnson Tory Brexit V Corbyn Labour Brexit, and at that point there would have to be detail on both sides. If at all possible.

Well at least Johnson and Hunt are now admitting that the "concession" they want from the EU is for the backstop to be ditched completely and never mentioned again.

There is a school of thought of course that this is all a big bluff by Johnson and he will say anything to become PM. Goodness knows what will happen in the autumn. He is a slippery customer and it's anyone's guess what he is really up to.

Mr.Nice Guy

Strazdas wrote:

It does tend to rubbish the 'Ireland should have conceded on the backstop' stuff. Weren't Dan O'Brien & Co saying we should have offered concessions like a time limit etc? Now Hunt and Johnson are saying even that wouldn't be acceptable to them

It was the DUP position as well, which makes these pronouncements by Johnson and Hunt very interesting.

...a senior lawmaker from Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party, which props up the Conservatives in parliament and opposed May’s deal, said last month the party was not looking for “earth-shattering” changes to the backstop.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-leader-backstop-idUSKCN1UA24W?utm_campaign

And this was Jeffrey Donaldson speaking to RTE last month:

He said he is asking for a time frame on the back stop so people will know that it is temporary and not indefinite.

“The Irish Government is refusing to budge on the time scale. That’s the only problem. (British) parliament could agree if that was removed,” he said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-ireland-created-backstop-impasse-says-donaldson-1.3925602

Uh oh. Not been a good week for Arlene and co.

I'm curious to hear how they will work their way around this latest development because they're now propping up a government intent on putting NI through the most painful Brexit possible.

marno21

There needs to be a revolt in the Labour Party. This circus in the Tory party has been unopposed for far too long.

A proper leader who can actually lead would have ripped these fools to bits at this stage.

Strazdas

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It was the DUP position as well, which makes these pronouncements by Johnson and Hunt very interesting.



And this was Jeffrey Donaldson speaking to RTE last month:



Uh oh. Not been a good week for Arlene and co.

I'm curious to hear how they will work their way around this latest development because they're now propping up a government intent on putting NI through the most painful Brexit possible.

Good spot. It shows that the DUP red lines and the Johnson / Hunt red lines on the backstop are two completely different things.

It also wrong foots everyone in Ireland who claimed the Irish Govt were intransigent and would cause No Deal to happen

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

Ah. But time limits and unilateral exit rights are not on offer. Nor were they ever likely to be.

It costs Johnson and Hunt nothing to reject what is not on offer, and it makes them look hard - at least, in the eyes of the audience that they are currently pitching to.

And, arguably, the more they establish themselves as "hard", the easier it is for them later to sell a necessary compromise, on the thinking that if a committed hard brexiter tells you some compromise is necessary, it really is necessary.

Nody

"Strazdas wrote: »

It also wrong foots everyone in Ireland who claimed the Irish Govt were intransigent and would cause No Deal to happen

Sorry but this is Brexit, the tune will now change to It's Ireland's fault for not accepting the generous technology solutions offered by UK that's the reason for No Deal happening. Remember it's always someone else's fault and facts have no place in these arguments.

Leroy42

Peregrinus wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

Ah. But time limits and unilateral exit rights are not on offer. Nor were they ever likely to be.

It costs Johnson and Hunt nothing to reject what is not on offer, and it makes them look hard - at least, in the eyes of the audience that they are currently pitching to.

And, arguably, the more they establish themselves as "hard", the easier it is for them later to sell a necessary compromise, on the thinking that if a committed hard brexiter tells you some compromise is necessary, it really is necessary.

Totally agree but what it does do, as alluded to in previous posts, is remove that area of uncertainty and blame. There was always this talk about time limits and need for opt out which the EU were being intransigent for not discussing.

But clearly, and many knew this was the case already including I suspect the EU, this means that there really is nothing to renegotiate.

It has completely removed any potential pressure from Ireland regarding the backstop as what the UK are asking for is to basically be absolved of any rules.

amacca

J Mysterio wrote: »

The big question is the potential of further extensions though, I suppose. The EU is still surviving and continuing in its work, despite "the saboteurs". Might they, on the EU side, actually be prepared to draw this out for some time? In theory, the longer the issue is drawn out, the more desperate it becomes for the UK as regards the uncertainty etc. It is not quite as painful in for the EU.

Is the uncertainty for the EU side what might happen with Italian economy etc, instability, potential further break up or have countries/electorates like that looked at the UK's experience so far and are not anxious to go down that path despite the rise of populism etc

sandbelter

Leroy42 wrote: »

Totally agree but what it does do, as alluded to in previous posts, is remove that area of uncertainty and blame. There was always this talk about time limits and need for opt out which the EU were being intransigent for not discussing.

But clearly, and many knew this was the case already including I suspect the EU, this means that there really is nothing to renegotiate.

It has completely removed any potential pressure from Ireland regarding the backstop as what the UK are asking for is to basically be absolved of any rules.

I think what's going in Cyprus with Turkey's gas drilling in Cypriot waters is probably becoming more pressing with every passing day.