Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

May 2018

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/leo-varadkar-offers-guarantee-of-no-border-on-island-of-ireland-1.3496592%3fmode=amp

Ohh you mean when no deal was not being discussed as a real possibility by anyone credible and the Backstop was 6 months from being signed off on?


Have you ever noticed how things can change given new information or events?

FreudianSlippers

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

May 2018

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/leo-varadkar-offers-guarantee-of-no-border-on-island-of-ireland-1.3496592%3fmode=amp

You didn't bother reading that article did you?

“We stand by the backstop, we stand by the text of Northern Ireland Irish protocol as it is and we must insist that it be included in the withdrawal agreement unless there is a better alternative,”

Wonder what has changed since May 2018? Oh that's right... everything has changed including the PM being unable to get the agreed deal past parliament on multiple occasions. Varadkar has zero control as to whether there is a hard border on this island.

Jamie2k9

VinLieger wrote: »

Ohh you mean when no deal was not being discussed as a real possibility by anyone credible and the Backstop was 6 months from being signed off on?


Have you ever noticed how things can change given new information or events?

Which is why you don't make such promises when nothing was agreed by all sides.

FreudianSlippers

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Which is why you don't make such promises when nothing was agreed by all sides.

He. Didn't. Make. Any. Promises.

FrancieBrady

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am in favour of serious reform of EU. Right now would I vote leave no however in 5-6 years time and nothing changes then yes I would vote out.

So, as somebody who thinks we should stay in. How do we protect the Single Market?

Never mind what the UK is or isn't doing. How do WE fulfill our obligation to protect the fundamental core of the EU?

Russman

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

May 2018

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/leo-varadkar-offers-guarantee-of-no-border-on-island-of-ireland-1.3496592%3fmode=amp

So, what does it matter if events (a no-deal crash out) lead to us being obligated to put up a border, and someone says "....but you said" to Leo ?
I don't really think anyone cares tbh. Everyone knows that's what must happen if the UK crashes out, its certainly not by choice that we'd erect a border. The world doesn't stop because of the sensibilities of a few who don't get it.

FreudianSlippers

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am in favour of serious reform of EU. Right now would I vote leave no however in 5-6 years time and nothing changes then yes I would vote out.

I find that people who say this normally can't list 5 reforms they'd like to see. I'll soft-ball it for you and ask for 3.

First Up

There won't be a hard border but there won't be un-fettered access to the EU via Ireland either. Procedures at Irish ports will see to that.

Some slippage across the Irish border will probably happen but nobody is losing sleep over that and surveillance of paper trails will catch enough of it to be commercially un-viable.

Nobody is bothered if Mrs A in Newry gives a few eggs to Mrs B in Dundalk.

FreudianSlippers

Russman wrote: »

So, what does it matter if events (a no-deal crash out) lead to us being obligated to put up a border, and someone says "....but you said" to Leo ?
I don't really think anyone cares tbh. Everyone knows that's what must happen if the UK crashes out, its certainly not by choice that we'd erect a border. The world doesn't stop because of the sensibilities of a few who don't get it.

I'm not sure anyone thought we'd be where we are now in May 2018... such simpler times!

FreudianSlippers

First Up wrote: »

There won't be a hard border but there won't be un-fettered access to the EU via Ireland either. Procedures at Irish ports will see to that.

Some slippage across the Irish border will probably happen but nobody is losing sleep over that and surveillance of paper trails will catch enough of it to be commercially un-viable.

Nobody is bothered if Mrs A in Newry gives a few eggs to Mrs B in Dundalk.

How do procedures at Irish ports prevent movement of goods to the EU across the border?

Valhallapt

On sky news twice this morning that Dublin/ Brussels considering a 10 year time limit on the backstop, anyone see any other source for this?

Lackadaisical

I would generally take any rumors in the UK media about Irish-EU relations and discussion with not only a pinch of salt but a few buckets of the stuff

Time and time again these tend to turn out to be wishful thinking by Brexiteers.

What happens is someone speculates and it gets reported as fact. That’s been a repeating phenomenon for the last couple of years.

I wouldn’t pay much attention to it unless confirmed by a more reliable non UK source.

Jamie2k9

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I find that people who say this normally can't list 5 reforms they'd like to see. I'll soft-ball it for you and ask for 3.

* Migration
* Elections & Top Jobs
* Budget Reform
* Legislation Process
* Individual Member State Power Restored

FrancieBrady

Valhallapt wrote: »

On sky news twice this morning that Dublin/ Brussels considering a 10 year time limit on the backstop, anyone see any other source for this?

Which would mean Ireland completely surrendering on it's 'A backstop with a time limit is not a backstop' position and Boris surrendering on his 'we want the entire backstop gone' position.

Dubious about that report to say the least.

Lackadaisical

There are two simple figures that Irish commentators speaking to the UK need to keep hammering: 11% of Irish exports go to the UK but 46% of UK exports go to the EU. We are not the ones who are highly exposed in this mess.

Jamie2k9

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, as somebody who thinks we should stay in. How do we protect the Single Market?

Never mind what the UK is or isn't doing. How do WE fulfill our obligation to protect the fundamental core of the EU?

If it avoids a border then all Irish goods have checks entering mainland Europe however they are given priority to reduce disruption unlike those from UK/NI or rest of world.

FreudianSlippers

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

* Migration
* Elections & Top Jobs
* Budget Reform
* Legislation Process
* Individual Member State Power Restored

What does any of this mean?

LuckyLloyd

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If it avoids a border then all Irish goods have checks entering mainland Europe however they are given priority to reduce disruption unlike those from UK/NI or rest of world.

So we exit the single market? No thanks.

VinLieger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If it avoids a border then all Irish goods have checks entering mainland Europe however they are given priority to reduce disruption unlike those from UK/NI or rest of world.

This is absolute insanity, separating ourselves like this and reducing our competitiveness will kill our economy.



Also without a border there's no point in treating us differently to the UK/NI or rest of the world as thanks to the tariff free state of the UK for the foreseeable future if the go no deal literally anything can come through Ireland via the open border in the north and the EU will have to treat us like everyone else.

lawred2

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am in favour of serious reform of EU. Right now would I vote leave no however in 5-6 years time and nothing changes then yes I would vote out.

Can you detail these reforms?

lawred2

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

* Migration
* Elections & Top Jobs
* Budget Reform
* Legislation Process
* Individual Member State Power Restored

I see you started a list...

Can you add detail under each of these exceptionally broad headings?

The last one is particularly hilarious given that Ireland's diplomatic strength has never been higher. This is the first time in our history where Westminster can not ride roughshod over our wishes. We stand with the weight of the most successful geo political union firmly behind us. So what 'Individual Member State Power' should Ireland see restored?

Or do you really mean - that you'd like to smaller nations see their power reduced to near colonial levels? As would be the expected norm of those Empire yearning living in the past types?

Leroy42

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I find that people who say this normally can't list 5 reforms they'd like to see. I'll soft-ball it for you and ask for 3.

* Migration
* Elections & Top Jobs
* Budget Reform
* Legislation Process
* Individual Member State Power Restored

Nice words.

What does it mean?

Migration. You want an end to FoM?
Elections and top jobs. You want more EU elections? UK have a turnout of 35%, so it would seem most are not bothered. And top jobs. Would you a EU wide election?
Budget Reform? Ok, everybody says that everywhere. Its a nice slogan.
Legislative process. How so. Such a broad term could mean anything.
Individual state power. I point you to UK. This is what happens when individual think they should be allowed di whatever they want. UK are more than happy to bully us. Should each country be allowed to make and change rules whenever they want?

Leroy42

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, as somebody who thinks we should stay in. How do we protect the Single Market?

Never mind what the UK is or isn't doing. How do WE fulfill our obligation to protect the fundamental core of the EU?

If it avoids a border then all Irish goods have checks entering mainland Europe however they are given priority to reduce disruption unlike those from UK/NI or rest of world.

So Ireland leaves the EU then?

VinLieger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

* Migration
* Elections & Top Jobs
* Budget Reform
* Legislation Process
* Individual Member State Power Restored

LOL so much to unpack here.

Firstly I saw your original list, nice ninja edit btw, but its quite obvious you've ripped this from somewhere else as the 5th point has mysteriously changed from "Welfare" to "Individual Member State Power Restored"

Secondly what reforms exactly, all these topics bar your new 5th one are so broad that you could mean literally anything. For instance on point 1 do you want more immigration?

Thirdly what exact individual state powers do you feel we are lacking that needs to be restored?

Jamie2k9

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL so much to unpack here.

Firstly I saw your original list, nice ninja edit btw, but its quite obvious you've ripped this from somewhere else as the 5th point has mysteriously changed from "Welfare" to "Individual Member State Power Restored"

Secondly what reforms exactly, all these topics bar your new 5th one are so broad that you could mean literally anything. For instance on point 1 do you want more immigration?

Thirdly what exact individual state powers do you feel we are lacking that needs to be restored?

Member State power would include welfare which is why it was changed.

Calina

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I was answering the question asked and gave 5 areas. Here is not the place to discuss the details about changes. I will get banned if I do.

I believe you can open a new thread on the matter and I would like it if you did. I think this bears discussion.

I don't tend to trust the I'll get banned excuse though.

First Up

FreudianSlippers wrote:

How do procedures at Irish ports prevent movement of goods to the EU across the border?

Everything boarding a ship going to the EU will have to show it is either of EU origin or is imported in compliance with EU requirements.

VinLieger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Because I'm on a warning...

LOL you were warned for low quality posting, refusing to give details when asked is literally just more low quality posting.


Sure you could move it here if your that concerned though


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057994069&page=6

FreudianSlippers

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If it avoids a border then all Irish goods have checks entering mainland Europe however they are given priority to reduce disruption unlike those from UK/NI or rest of world.

Honestly, if we were to do this we may as well leave the EU and join the UK. I suspect partially that's your end-game here anyway?

FreudianSlippers

lawred2 wrote: »

I see you started a list...

Can you add detail under each of these exceptionally broad headings?

The last one is particularly hilarious given that Ireland's diplomatic strength has never been higher. This is the first time in our history where Westminster can not ride roughshod over our wishes. We stand with the weight of the most successful geo political union firmly behind us. So what 'Individual Member State Power' should Ireland see restored?

Or do you really mean - that you'd like to smaller nations see their power reduced to near colonial levels? As would be the expected norm of those Empire yearning living in the past types?

You clearly have more patience than me today! :pac: