Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

ambro25

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I'm not going to get at Juncker here but to be accurate, although Juncker is from Luxembourg, German is one of the official languages so he might well have been addressed as Herr Juncker. Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

As a Luxembourger, Juncker would never get addressed as "Herr Juncker" anywhere else than in Germany.

German is an official language in Luxembourg, but in actual use, a very distant third to the other two official languages, Luxembourger and French. And practically, still further down the line behind English and Portuguese. The correct and time-honoured greeting in Luxembourg is Monsieur Juncker.

Juncker's father was, like many Luxembourgers, Alsatians and Mosellans, a Malgré-Nous (force-conscripted into the Whermacht, else his family would be deported to labour camps). That is because the 3rd Reich considered that neck of the woods to be Reichland (1870-1918) rather than occupied countries, wherein it annexed it to the Reich in 1940, making all local males of age subject to military conscription (the 'forced' bit came in later, in view of the scale of absconding and passive resistance).

Mark Francois is an imbecile, and I'll bet €10 to €0,01 that he's completely unaware of the region's history, in particular the plight of the Malgré-Nous (needless to say, they weren't exactly welcome back home in 1947-1952, as the (few) surviving ones were gradually returning from Russian captivity in Tambow...and communists in western Europe, politically very active at the time -and influential in eg France- weren't exactly keen on their gaining PR exposure and talking about their captivity conditions in Russia).

But I'm confident that Monsieur Francois would have done exceedingly well under Hitler's regime, like so many knuckle-dragging amoral opportunists of his type did back then.

Stop moaning ffs

Strazdas wrote: »

This point is being completely overlooked by the likes of Dan O'Brien and Eoghan Harris. Even if the Irish Govt. conceded on the backstop, it probably wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the ERG,

If it wasn’t the backstop or if we even took it out it would be just be something else they’re after.
Can’t remember who said it. Might have been Coveney

Peregrinus

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

If it wasn’t the backstop or if we even took it out it would be just be something else they’re after.
Can’t remember who said it. Might have been Coveney

It was various ERG members (including Francois). This isn't an accusation made against them; it's a claim they're making for themselves.

mickoneill31

Bit cynical wrote: »

He said Här Juncker in the bunker. The Luxembourgish Här sounds very similar to the German Herr which is the reason I think some of us are getting confused.

Sounds identical to Herr to me

Note. The audio doesn't play for me properly if I play on the browser. If it opens in twitter it plays properly (might be just me though).

If he meant Här for Luxembourg what does the bunker bit refer to?

https://twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status/1154522392041009152?s=09

Patser

Herr (or Här) Juncker in the Bunker is all about war effort, defeat the Huns, imagery.

Herr Jean-Claude doesn't sound right though does it, not if you want to make an anti-German dig. He knew what he was doing.

VinLieger

Bit cynical wrote: »

He said Här Juncker in the bunker. The Luxembourgish Här sounds very similar to the German Herr which is the reason I think some of us are getting confused.

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I'm not going to get at Juncker here but to be accurate, although Juncker is from Luxembourg, German is one of the official languages so he might well have been addressed as Herr Juncker. Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

He said Herr, he thinks he's German, trying to pretend francois isnt an odious racist little troll obsessed with past British glories is really just pathetic

Stop moaning ffs

The Brits are really waking up to the the DUP now. Nobody’s happy and everyone’s realising its gone by to cost them a lot of money

https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1154350891421622272?s=21

Leroy42

Its Mark Francois.

Har, Herr. You are putting far too much nuance onto it.

The man has a serious issue with Germans, Germany, WWII and the rest. Juncker sounds German, he runs the EU and therefore is part of the Franco-German axis of power.

woohoo!!!

Interesting Cummings cannot stand the ERG and had them take a back seat for the 2016 campaign. Keep the Rottweilers on a short leash, now and for a while now Doris and Bob are nodding approvingly so they're let off the leash. Ho hum

lawred2

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its Mark Francois.

Har, Herr. You are putting far too much nuance onto it.

The man has a serious issue with Germans, Germany, WWII and the rest. Juncker sounds German, he runs the EU and therefore is part of the Franco-German axis of power.

Takes some amount of mental gymnastics and self delusion to convince yourself that Mark Francois said and meant anything other than what he quite plainly said. The man does not have levels. He is what it says on the tin.

Peregrinus

VinLieger wrote: »

He said Herr, he thinks he's German, trying to pretend francois isnt an odious racist little troll obsessed with past British glories is really just pathetic

I'm kind of assuming that Francois was bullied in the playground on account of his foreign name, and that he has been compensating ever since.

Patser

France's reply to Johnson is brilliant, sorry no renegotiation of deal, but if you want to meet to have a chat about what happens after you leave fine. That's a nonchalant reply to all Johnson's bombastic we're leaving on 31st October, one way or another! France: Ok, see ya, what's next for us.

https://reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UL0DH?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%2BTrending%2BContent&utm_content=5d3ab1f0ba8d0400013c7240&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

For Forks Sake

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I'm not going to get at Juncker here but to be accurate, although Juncker is from Luxembourg, German is one of the official languages so he might well have been addressed as Herr Juncker. Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

You are crediting Francois with a far higher level of thought than he possesses.

trellheim

I'd recommend Tim Shipman's books especially All Out War which was the story up to the Brexit referendum. He has a very very good insight into the Tory Party , the effects of Cummings in particular is required reading at this point


( Can't stand shipman's politics at the mo, hes gone away from being unbiased to hard brexiter ), however the books are very very good indeed.

ancapailldorcha

trellheim wrote: »

( Can't stand shipman's politics at the mo, hes gone away from being unbiased to hard brexiter ), however the books are very very good indeed.

I've not followed him aside from reading his books. He voted remain which makes this surprising:

https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/944691219099193347?lang=en

Professor Moriarty

For Forks Sake wrote: »

You are crediting Francois with a far higher level of thought than he possesses.

You leave Mark alone. He's my new hero:

Mark Francois: “If there were any attempt to revive the withdrawal agreement, even without the backstop, the ERG would vote against it.”

Kirsty Wark: “Hang on, any attempt to revive without the backstop, you would still vote against it? So you’re holding Boris Johnson’s feet to the fire already?”

Mark Francois: “He said many times during the campaign that the withdrawal agreement is dead. I believe him.”

trellheim

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've not followed him aside from reading his books. He voted remain which makes this surprising:

https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/944691219099193347?lang=en

My view is that he thinks the WA is a bad deal. Dues to the man though it is getting harder and harder to find an unbiased journalist on this, and although I never ever thought I'd say this Sky News are the least biased for me at the moment although Beth is no Faisal Islam ( how the fk they let him go was a mystery ) she's excellent.

Poor old Adam boulton having a mars bar on the back of his trousers day before yesterday was funny tho (google for pics).

Laura Kuenssberg is not biased ( **** BUT **** refuses to say a lot of what she knows for fear of upsetting contacts which for her is more important than getting the word out, you can see this in a lot of her stuff is gossip not news for this exact reason, its not bias theres another word for that which escapes me atm)

trellheim

Followup re above

see THIS extract from Shipman's book and the cautionary note from the tweeter

https://twitter.com/AdamDyster/status/1154160384342974464

Professor Moriarty

trellheim wrote: »

My view is that he thinks the WA is a bad deal. Dues to the man though it is getting harder and harder to find an unbiased journalist on this, and although I never ever thought I'd say this Sky News are the least biased for me at the moment although Beth is no Faisal Islam ( how the fk they let him go was a mystery ) she's excellent.

Poor old Adam boulton having a mars bar on the back of his trousers day before yesterday was funny tho (google for pics).

Laura Kuenssberg is not biased ( **** BUT **** refuses to say a lot of what she knows for fear of upsetting contacts which for her is more important than getting the word out, you can see this in a lot of her stuff is gossip not news for this exact reason, its not bias theres another word for that which escapes me atm)

There is no doubt that Emily Maitlis is virulently anti Brexit. Marr is less obviously so but biased nonetheless.

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

Followup re above

see THIS extract from Shipman's book and the cautionary note from the tweeter

https://twitter.com/AdamDyster/status/1154160384342974464

So he wants to blow up the civil service? That is the British civil service which is the envy of the world, he thinks they need an overhaul. Good thing he is not in a position of power then.

kunst nugget

Enzokk wrote: »

So he wants to blow up the civil service? That is the British civil service which is the envy of the world, he thinks they need an overhaul. Good thing he is not in a position of power then.

Is it the envy of the world? Wouldn't have thought it was much different to any other civil service in the west... I've never looked at Britain and thought 'Oh, I'm so jealous of their civil service.'

That said, Cummings plan sounds very, very dangerous and sounds like the beginning steps of an authoritarian government.

Bit cynical

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Sounds identical to Herr to me

Note. The audio doesn't play for me properly if I play on the browser. If it opens in twitter it plays properly (might be just me though).

If he meant Här for Luxembourg what does the bunker bit refer to?

https://twitter.com/cliodiaspora/status/1154522392041009152?s=09

The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

Tell me how

Bit cynical wrote: »

The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

Give Francois's previous comments about WW2 spirit, and his army 'career'.

I don't think there is any doubt but that he was trying to invoke war time sentiment.

hill16bhoy

Bit cynical wrote: »

The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

You're totally deluded if you think Francois was referring to anything other than the last days of Hitler when he used the word "bunker".

Enzokk

Bit cynical wrote: »

The two sound pretty much the same to our ears, the "ä" sounding like an "e" in English so the confusion is understandable, Luxembourgish being a dialect of German.


I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

Really, you think the man that tore up a letter from Airbus and stated his forefathers didn't beat those Germans in the war for them to tell him what to do is not thinking about the war?

Bit cynical

Enzokk wrote: »

Really, you think the man that tore up a letter from Airbus and stated his forefathers didn't beat those Germans in the war for them to tell him what to do is not thinking about the war?

OK he may have meant Führerbunker.

CrabRevolution

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I'm not going to get at Juncker here but to be accurate, although Juncker is from Luxembourg, German is one of the official languages so he might well have been addressed as Herr Juncker. Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

This is a good example of the "Brexit is a Religion" mindset I mentioned before (https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110339919&postcount=592).

There's a great Halloween episode of the Simpsons where Bart is practically omnipotent and can bend reality to make anything he wants happen. Obviously everyone is in fear of Bart and seeks to please him. After a school test, his teacher explains to the class that the correct answers are whatever Bart wrote on his test: so the USA is now called "Bonerland" and was founded by "Some Guy" etc.

It's pretty much the same with brexit; where brexit conflicts with facts, it's the facts that have to yield.

So when a prominent brexiter like Francois states something that's patently wrong; tough. Luxembourg is now part of Germany and Jean Claude Junker can justifiably be called a Nazi.

trellheim

kunst nugget wrote: »

Is the envy of the world? Wouldn't have thought it was much different to any other civil service in the west... I've never looked at Britain and thought 'Oh, I'm so jealous of their civil service.'

That said, Cummings plan sounds very, very dangerous and sounds like the beginning steps of an authoritarian government.

If you look at the what Michael Gove has been appointed to - Chancellor of Duchy of Lancaster , and where Cummings is, its basically a writ to carry out exactly whats in that extract - rewrite the civil service in their vision

ancapailldorcha

trellheim wrote: »

My view is that he thinks the WA is a bad deal. Dues to the man though it is getting harder and harder to find an unbiased journalist on this, and although I never ever thought I'd say this Sky News are the least biased for me at the moment although Beth is no Faisal Islam ( how the fk they let him go was a mystery ) she's excellent.

I watch Sky News on Youtube sometimes. Does anyone know why they keep playing Jingle music in the background?

Tell me how

Once again I'm inclined to think this morning of the fiasco Labour is.
If Johnson's plan us to dramatically restructure the civil service or whatever the exact angle is, to have Labour so so inept in flagging the risk or demanding counter-action is downright contradictory to their supposed ideals.

They would be the security guards who are hiding in a stationary cupboard while a burglar ransacks the building.

Maybe, just maybe, Corbyns plan is to let the Tories absolutely destroy everything so then he can build the government system he desires from the ashes. Interesting concept maybe but scary approach it is true. And he'd want to be in government until he's 100 to see it through.