Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Stop moaning ffs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I watch Sky News on Youtube sometimes. Does anyone know why they keep playing Jingle music in the background?

It’s a xylophone player on college green. He has some repertoire

J Mysterio

Patser wrote: »

France's reply to Johnson is brilliant, sorry no renegotiation of deal, but if you want to meet to have a chat about what happens after you leave fine. That's a nonchalant reply to all Johnson's bombastic we're leaving on 31st October, one way or another! France: Ok, see ya, what's next for us.

https://reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UL0DH?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A%2BTrending%2BContent&utm_content=5d3ab1f0ba8d0400013c7240&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

And here is the same woman - Amélie de Montchalin - at the NI border.


https://twitter.com/AdeMontchalin/status/1152149808330805253



"On the Irish-UK border with my Irish colleague @HMcEntee

After the #Brexit, France will be the European country closest to Ireland. This will only strengthen our already dense links on vital issues for citizens"

Professor Moriarty

Tell me how wrote: »

Once again I'm inclined to think this morning of the fiasco Labour is.
If Johnson's plan us to dramatically restructure the civil service or whatever the exact angle is, to have Labour so so inept in flagging the risk or demanding counter-action is downright contradictory to their supposed ideals.

They would be the security guards who are hiding in a stationary cupboard while a burglar ransacks the building.

Maybe, just maybe, Corbyns plan is to let the Tories absolutely destroy everything so then he can build the government system he desires from the ashes. Interesting concept maybe but scary approach it is true. And he'd want to be in government until he's 100 to see it through.

General elections are becoming more personality driven, basically presidential, across the world - the UK included. Thus, Corbyn is increasingly making Labour unelectable. Whatever about Johnson being a liar, he will destroy Corbyn at the despatch box and outshine him on television. Like him or loathe him, Johnson has charisma.

By comparison, Corbyn is dithering and monochrome. In fact, if there is a no deal, I would primarily blame Corbyn's ineptitude as opposition leader and his watery commitment to Europe and, of course, the gutless Labour MPs who wouldn't take him down.

MrMusician18

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

General elections are becoming more personality driven, basically presidential, across the world - the UK included. Thus, Corbyn is increasingly making Labour unelectable. Whatever about Johnson being a liar, he will destroy Corbyn at the despatch box and outshine him on television. Like him or loathe him, Johnson has charisma.

By comparison, Corbyn is dithering and monochrome. In fact, if there is a no deal, I would primarily blame Corbyn's ineptitude as opposition leader and his watery commitment to Europe and, of course, the gutless Labour MPs who wouldn't take him down.

Performances in the Commons only matter to political hacks, whose views are entrenched anyway.

TV performance, walkabouts, soundbites and gaffes are more important than the one upmanship that takes place in the chamber.

Sadly, policy doesn't really feature in the hierarchy of importance.

robinph

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think we're also reading too much into bunker. Churchill also had a bunker and the phrase "bunker mentality" is quite common and does not refer to Nazi Germany.

Doesn't matter if he was talking about Churchills bunker or Hitlers bunker, he's still invoking WW2 and trying to claim he's in a fight against evil Germans now.

Bit cynical

robinph wrote: »

Doesn't matter if he was talking about Churchills bunker or Hitlers bunker, he's still invoking WW2 and trying to claim he's in a fight against evil Germans now.

I've already conceded that he could have been evoking the last days of Hitler in the Furherbunker.

Professor Moriarty

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Performances in the Commons only matter to political hacks, whose views are entrenched anyway.

TV performance, walkabouts, soundbites and gaffes are more important than the one upmanship that takes place in the chamber.

Sadly, policy doesn't really feature in the hierarchy of importance.

Johnson's performance at the despatch boc was splashed across the British media. Johnson's oratorical skills and charisma were in stark contrast to Corbyn's mealy mouthed and grey mumbling. Personality has replaced policy and there will be only one winner between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

Stop moaning ffs

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson's performance at the despatch boc was splashed across the British media. Johnson's oratorical skills and charisma were in stark contrast to Corbyn's mealy mouthed and grey mumbling. Personality has replaced policy and there will be only one winner between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot air

Professor Moriarty

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot sir

Hopefully. But imagine if he had been facing Starmer? Or Thornberry?

Stop moaning ffs

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hopefully. But imagine if he had been facing Starmer? Or Thornberry?

Just on that.
At what point does Corbyn go for the good of the country I need to step down and hand this over?
The Tories are delighted he’s leading labour. He’s been neutered as a threat utterly in a sustained campaign against him on all fronts for years.

If I were him I’d step down

J Mysterio

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot air

Including when he was asked again why he had met Cambridge Analytica in 2016 and responded 'I dont know' before sitting down again. Yeah, that's perfectly acceptable.

Rjd2

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

To be fair Johnson has been castigated for his awful blustering and non answers to most of the questions yesterday. That will continue and reveal the void blatantly on view trying to hide behind all his bellowing and hot sir

Charisma is so important in 2019 no matter if you have nothing of substance to say so yeah a good day for Boris. Majority of voters don't have the time to watch in depth or sit around debating it in detail sadly.

Corbyn looks stale these days, the attacks are pretty easy to swat away and his weird stance on Brexit is helping nobody. Someone as shrewd as Cummings and a thriving Lib Dems must be loving it.

I'l give Corbyn the benefit, he has some time off so I think he will in the next few weeks endorse a second referendum. He may not want to do it, but to many important people in Labour are rightfully getting angry, 9 years in opposition and if they mantain their current stance it could be another few years ,,,that's unacceptable.

kunst nugget

J Mysterio wrote: »

Including when he was asked again why he had met Cambridge Analytica in 2016 and responded 'I dont know' before sitting down again. Yeah, that's perfectly acceptable.

Why would he bother his hole answering it? His supporters don't give a shít and the British press are probably going to ignore it anyway.

BobbyBobberson

Anyone watch the great hack yet? Going to have a look tonight at it.

My uncle revealed himself as a brexit voter over the weekend and was despairing over the fact that Johnson would be PM. "Doesnt seem to have a plan" said the brexit voter without any hint of irony. He is an accountant that works for....wait for it....an international logistics company. I mean.....**** me.

Professor Moriarty

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Anyone watch the great hack yet? Going to have a look tonight at it.

My uncle revealed himself as a brexit voter over the weekend and was despairing over the fact that Johnson would be PM. "Doesnt seem to have a plan" said the brexit voter without any hint of irony. He is an accountant that works for....wait for it....an international logistics company. I mean.....**** me.

Soon he'll be an accountant that used to work for an international logistics company.

Oafley Jones

Rjd2 wrote: »

Charisma is so important in 2019 no matter if you have nothing of substance to say so yeah a good day for Boris. Majority of voters don't have the time to watch in depth or sit around debating it in detail sadly.

Corbyn looks stale these days, the attacks are pretty easy to swat away and his weird stance on Brexit is helping nobody. Someone as shrewd as Cummings and a thriving Lib Dems must be loving it.

I'l give Corbyn the benefit, he has some time off so I think he will in the next few weeks endorse a second referendum. He may not want to do it, but to many important people in Labour are rightfully getting angry, 9 years in opposition and if they mantain their current stance it could be another few years ,,,that's unacceptable.

I don't know how anyone could give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt at this stage? Maybe he'll be "energised" as well? The most incompetent shower of Tories have been in power during his leadership and look what he's managed.

There was a great reader's comment on the Guardian on Wednesday; "the only way this cabinet could be more Pro Brexit, is if Corbyn was on it."

Seth Brundle

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Anyone watch the great hack yet? Going to have a look tonight at it.

My uncle revealed himself as a brexit voter over the weekend and was despairing over the fact that Johnson would be PM. "Doesnt seem to have a plan" said the brexit voter without any hint of irony. He is an accountant that works for....wait for it....an international logistics company. I mean.....**** me.

Out of curiosity, does he actually realise what fate might face him or what kind of short to medium term future does he think the Uk will have?

BobbyBobberson

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does he actually realise what fate might face him or what kind of short to medium term future does he think the Uk will have?

Well pre Brexit vote he spoke about thinking of voting. I explained that it was more than likely a **** show and that value of pound would drop etc. This is a guy who has an apartment in Spain and goes to Europe three times a year.

I asked last week what was he hoping for and he said and he said he would have taken the WA even though he felt it was not enough.

He just had all the normal comments but delivered more assuredly "I think it will be fine" or "there might be a tiny bit of an upset". My wife was nudging me to leave it because she could see where it was going to end up :pac:

Roger_007

There has been much discussion about the role of the civil service and how it might be diminished under the Johnson/Cummings regime.
It might be instructive of the PM and his senior ministers to watch some old episodes of Yes Minister. It is widely acknowledged in British political circles that those story lines were very close to the truth in the way they portrayed the power that the Civil Service can have over ministers and governments. Their power stems from their knowledge and experience, and the total reliance that ministers have on them when making any public pronouncement.
If there is any attempt to sideline the civil service, I suspect that there will be a kickback from them.

IAmTheReign

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Also, although he was born after the war, his father served in the German army in the Second World War. Doesn't make him a Nazi, of course, but it might be part of the reason for Francois' remarks.

Maybe it's me but this came across an awful lot like you're implying his father was a Nazi. "Now I'm not saying his dad was a Nazi, but he was in army during the war..."

trellheim

Both Cummings and Johnson believe they are BY FAR the smartest people in the room

for an idea of what i am talking about watch here - it is a stunning video about how Vote leave managed to do what they did - seriously - its brilliant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=552&v=CDbRxH9Kiy4&fbclid=IwAR3HWc31AxZy7RALpdJsj-Buvecr2AItgJBr2PJR-ucPk5zsBWZggeEY6qo


( oh and very very scary )

EKRIUQ

trellheim wrote: »

Both Cummings and Johnson believe they are BY FAR the smartest people in the room

for an idea of what i am talking about watch here - it is a stunning video about how Vote leave managed to do what they did - seriously - its brilliant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=552&v=CDbRxH9Kiy4&fbclid=IwAR3HWc31AxZy7RALpdJsj-Buvecr2AItgJBr2PJR-ucPk5zsBWZggeEY6qo


( oh and very very scary )

The leave campaign was brilliant and Cummings did a brilliant job, they tapped into the man on the street, came up with the "Take back control" slogan, built it so this was a vote of patriotism, sovereignty and taking back control of the borders.

That complemented the 30 years of propaganda by the UK press and the arrogance of the UK politicians who were remainers. Who didn't have a clue what the single market or the EU was either.

But that was all 3 years ago, people have had enough time to educate themselves, and where are they??? Boris Johnson as PM and heading for a worse path.

trellheim

EKRIUQ wrote: »

The leave campaign was brilliant and Cummings did a brilliant job, they tapped into the man on the street, came up with the "Take back control" slogan, built it so this was a vote of patriotism, sovereignty and taking back control of the borders.

That complemented the 30 years of propaganda by the UK press and the arrogance of the UK politicians who were remainers. Who didn't have a clue what the single market or the EU was either.

But that was all 3 years ago, people have had enough time to educate themselves, and where are they??? Boris Johnson as PM and heading for a worse path.

you've answered your own question there. Johnson ran the same campaign with Cummings to get in as PM and that is the strategy here I would think to move to a position of strength.

Sam Russell

Is Cummings a committed political activist or a gun for hire?

Does he believe this stuff he pushes?

MrMusician18

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is Cummings a committed political activist or a gun for hire?

Does he believe this stuff he pushes?

He's run a blog of his ideas. He's is using leave to create chaos to achieve his goal of complete reform of what he considers an unfit for propose civil service.

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is Cummings a committed political activist or a gun for hire?

Does he believe this stuff he pushes?

He's a PR man. He once worked for Michael Gove. He'd be the sort who was satirized in The Thick of It.

Sam Russell

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He's run a blog of his ideas. He's is using leave to create chaos to achieve his goal of complete reform of what he considers an unfit for propose civil service.

So an anarchist rather than a right wing Tory.

Interesting.

MrMusician18

Sam Russell wrote: »

So an anarchist rather than a right wing Tory.

Interesting.

Libertarian might be more accurate although there are a lot of crossovers these days.

Sam Russell

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

So an anarchist rather than a right wing Tory.

Interesting.

Libertarian might be more accurate although there are a lot of crossovers these days.

The labels change but the basic intent remains. The end point might differ too. No sane person now believes that Trotsky was right, but Trotskyists still exist.

trellheim

Have a look at the YT video I posted and if you can, All Out War - you'll get the idea