Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Mr.Wemmick

Blame all in sundry, but isn't that what they've always done. The reason why they are in this mess, blaming the EU for all their austerity woes since the year dot.

The media have a lot to answer for, and the UK are full to the brim with politicians who aren't accountable for what is happening, it's always someone else's fault. Even the remainers are throwing up their hands and giving up.. Soubry and her new-ish party (whatsitname) failed to get behind the Lib Dems and support the country. Party first, so more of the same old tribal crap.

I am just hoping there will be some gumption and power in the back benches from now on to expose showman Boris and his nutcase of a team.

Stop moaning ffs

J Mysterio wrote: »

It seems clear that Varadkar and Coveney have decided they have had enough, and that they are going to up the rhetoric.

Varadkar stating outright that that NDB will break the UK.



Coveney saying BJ's comments unhelpful and that they set UK on a collision course with Ireland/EU.



While these discussion points are not new, I think there is a change in tone to be observed, and a hardening of sentiment.

Two schools of thought I guess: a) keep schtum and allow their rope to run out or b) speak your mind and call out the bull****.

Well, we have been quite diplomatic for 3 years now, making the salient points, but reasonably gently. There has obviously been some calculation on this in the Irish cabinet... Perhaps they want to make a splash on this in UK media to better highlight the issue in UK national discourse? Boris obviously wants to swat the issue away and undermine it for UK public.

Seems as though inflammatory speech and hard sentiment has done well on both sides of the Atlantic (UK/US). Political discourse seems to be degenerating globally in recent years into a sort of battle royale. Maybe the Irish government have decided to enter the game? I dont think I would neccesarily reccomend or encourage this, but I'm not shocked either and - tbh - there is a small part of me that enjoys seeing it given back, even if I regret the lowering of international diplomacy and multilateralism.

Well all I am seeing is in effect ‘WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE??)THE BLOODY PADDIES BETTER KNOW THEIR PLACE!’

Turned up to 11 after Leo and simons comments.

54and56

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1154859919713218560

They should correct that to "to discuss killing the NHS".

My immediate thought on this is that the US won't start trade talks until after Brexit as by then, assuming a no deal Brexit, the UK will have had to declare their WTO tariffs and should they decide to lower them the US will have little motivation to do a deal unless the big prizes they want (unrestricted agriculture trade, open up the NHS etc) are on the table as they'll already benefit from the WTO tariffs.

Also, there is no way Trump will have either forgotten or forgiven Boris for calling him an incompetent idiot (can't remember the exact quote) so he's going to completely school Boris on the trade talks and serve his revenge nice and cold.

Preparations for new trade deals with the US are now on the way.

Trump: US and UK working on 'very substantial' trade deal
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49135045
US President Donald Trump has said talks about a "very substantial" trade deal with the UK are under way.

He said a bilateral post-Brexit deal could lead to a "three to four, five times" increase in current trade.

There are no details about how this would be achieved.

After a phone call with Boris Johnson on Friday, Mr Trump said the new prime minister would be "great". He added US-UK trade had previously been "impeded" by Britain's membership of the EU.

Once the UK leaves, he said, the UK can expect to do "much more" trade with the US, he said.

Mr Johnson and Mr Trump said they would begin formal negotiations "as soon as possible" after the UK leaves the EU.

While the UK is in the EU, it cannot sign its own trade deals. Brexit is due to happen on 31 October.

Meanwhile, provisional trade deals are being made in preparation for a "no deal" Brexit.

As a member of the EU, the UK is part of about 40 trade agreements the EU has with more than 70 countries.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal it would lose these trade deals immediately - worth about 11% of total UK trade.

So far the UK has agreed "continuity" deals with 12 countries and regions: Central America, Andean countries, Norway and Iceland, Caribbean countries, Pacific Islands, Liechtenstein , Israel, Palestinian Authority, Switzerland, the Faroe Islands, Eastern and Southern Africa and Chile.

These areas account for 64% of trade currently covered by EU agreements for which the UK is seeking continuity, the government says. The agreements mostly replicate EU trade deals.

In addition, the UK has also announced a deal in principle with South Korea, which is "expected to be signed shortly".

It will be very interesting to see how many more deals are done before Brexit is done as the more external provisional deals there are, the less damaging a no deal Brexit will be to the British economy.

J Mysterio

What is remarkable is that the North has been reasonably muted. Little to no protests or bother of significance.

Ok, Lyra McKee was shot in an obvious tragedy, and there was the Derry car bomb (obvious warning), but not much besides? These are quickly forgotten about in the endless news cycle.

The Orange 'season' has passed with little trouble and it can be said that most people do indeed crave stability and peace so they can just get on with their lives, but NI has had the Sword of Damocles hanging over it for some time now, and no functioning government for years (enjoying the honour of a world record for this). Westminster has begun to make laws for NI, even if the most recent ot these seem to favour Nationalist sentiment.

I'm actually surprised that the dissident elements haven't tried to focus minds a little more? That they haven't really woken from their light slumber? Obviously I dont want to precipitate violence but I guess there may have been calculations on the IRA side that to cause trouble might be counter productive as the UK is the weak element in negotiations. That might change however with the hardening of positions and the UK's intransigence on NI...

LeinsterDub

J Mysterio wrote: »

I'm actually surprised that the dissident elements haven't tried to focus minds a little more? That they haven't really woken from their light slumber? Obviously I dont want to precipitate violence but I guess there may have been calculations on the IRA side that to cause trouble might be counter productive as the UK is the weak element in negotiations. That might change however with the hardening of positions and the UK's intransigence on NI...

Don't interrupt your enemy while they are busy making a mistake

FrancieBrady

J Mysterio wrote: »

What is remarkable is that the North has been reasonably muted. Little to no protests or bother of significance.

Ok, Lyra McKee was shot in an obvious tragedy, and there was the Derry car bomb (obvious warning), but not much besides? These are quickly forgotten about in the endless news cycle.

The Orange 'season' has passed with little trouble and it can be said that most people do indeed crave stability and peace so they can just get on with their lives, but NI has had the Sword of Damocles hanging over it for some time now, and no functioning government for years (enjoying the honour of a world record for this). Westminster has begun to make laws for NI, even if the most recent ot these seem to favour Nationalist sentiment.

I'm actually surprised that the dissident elements haven't tried to focus minds a little more? That they haven't really woken from their light slumber? Obviously I dont want to precipitate violence but I guess there may have been calculations on the IRA side that to cause trouble might be counter productive as the UK is the weak element in negotiations. That might change however with the hardening of positions and the UK's intransigence on NI...

I was in Asda, Enniskillen yesterday and had an issue with a product and had to speak to a manager about it. I couldn't resist asking him about the obvious sign that the store was quiet and Brexit. He said business has been steadily falling over the last few years and has most recently fallen off a cliff, particularly from the south. He reckoned that Asda won't hang around if targets aren't being met, and sadly I don't think you will see vocal public reaction until visible things like that start to happen.

woohoo!!!

The blame game is well established and it's also a movable feast. After Brexit and the WTO reality bites, they'll hitch their wagon to Trump and start denouncing WTO, best to get that US trade deal and drown out concerns about good standards and the NHS. A brave new global Britain yada yada.

Stop moaning ffs

Re the imaginary US/UK trade deal
Impeachment investigations on trump were just announced and also remember Pelosi said there’ll be no trade deal with the uk of its a no deal brexit that threatens the GFA

All trade deals have to go through through the house.

So trump is talking out of his back end.

In a shock to absolutely nobody

Stop moaning ffs

woohoo!!! wrote: »

The blame game is well established and it's also a movable feast. After Brexit and the WTO reality bites, they'll hitch their wagon to Trump and start denouncing WTO, best to get that US trade deal and drown out concerns about good standards and the NHS. A brave new global Britain yada yada.

Prepare to see them take on ‘the 51st state’ as a monicker and they’ll be spinning it and proud of it

Tell me how

Straightforward summation of the state of readiness in the UK at the moment.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1154761529516003328

Stop moaning ffs

Tell me how wrote: »

Straightforward summation of the state of readiness in the UK at the moment.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1154761529516003328

The telegraph actually reporting facts?

We truly are in end days

Tell me how

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The telegraph actually reporting facts?

We truly are in end days

I wonder how do the journalists from the respective papers and positions interact when they are in a press room or waiting for an interview or whatever.

Surely any semblance of bias which they aim to mask when publishing their work is in plain view and I imagine they don't just spend the time waiting talking about Love Island or Man Utd's transfer dealings before doing their work.

Surely the likes of Ian Dunt has no time for making small talk with Brendan O'Neil. Or Isabel Oakeshott and Jon Snow either. I wonder have there been many shouting matches and accusations of being a shill between media 'professionals' behind the scenes.

declanflynn

Any chance the DUP would agree to some type of border in the Irish sea and claim to have saved the union europe and ireland

Mr.Wemmick

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The telegraph actually reporting facts?

We truly are in end days

Giving Boris the backing for an extension. The papers are preparing the road for him, how kind..

Stop moaning ffs

declanflynn wrote: »

Any chance the DUP would agree to some type of border in the Irish sea and claim to have saved the union europe and ireland

Not a hope. They’d wrap a tricolour around themselves and then set themlves alight before that will happen.

But the sea border is gonna happen and Boris stab them in the back yard to get his brexit

Joe_ Public

There's no doubt that a US FTA is one of the big prizes for many of the staunch brexiteers and a big reason for the sustained push for a no deal crash out. Last year a right wing US think tank called Cato published the following paper setting out the basis for such a deal with Daniel Hannan's name attached to it. The paragraph quoted below was slipped in almost surreptitiously towards the end, but it leaves no doubt what the stragegy is. Not only will the brexiteers tolerate the wholesale sell off of the NHS to US corparate interests, they will, after a period, actively endorse it. Let there be no mistake about that.

https://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/ideal-us-uk-free-trade-agreement-free-traders-perspective

"As for other services areas, health services are an area where both sides would benefit from openness to foreign competition, although we recognize any changes to existing regulations will be extremely controversial. Perhaps, then, for other areas the initial focus should be on other fields such as education or legal services, where negotiators can test the waters and see what is possible. That said, we would envisage a swift, time-tabled implementation of recognition across all areas within 5 years."

Strazdas

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Elements of the UK media really ramping up the anti-Irish vitriol. Here's Richard Littlejohn of the Daily Mail.

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/1154709546834812929

Suspect we'll see a lot of this in the coming months.

Gavan Reilly reports that the Barclay thing never even happened, so our friend Littlejohn is lying on top of everything else.

Sam Russell

Strazdas wrote: »

Gavan Reilly reports that the Barclay thing never even happened, so our friend Littlejohn is lying on top of everything else.

Isn't lying a requirement in the Kipper infected world of Brexit?

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

Isn't lying a requirement in the Kipper infected world of Brexit?

The two go hand in hand. The whole Brexit project is built on a web of lies and being in a state of denial.

If they came clean about what it really entailed, it would fall apart within five minutes.

upupup

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Re the imaginary US/UK trade deal
Impeachment investigations on trump were just announced and also remember Pelosi said there’ll be no trade deal with the uk of its a no deal brexit that threatens the GFA

All trade deals have to go through through the house.

So trump is talking out of his back end.

In a shock to absolutely nobody

The US/UK Trade will happen followed by Mexico paying for the wall,North Korea,China and Iran then bow down to the mighty Trump and all the Muslims leave the US.....Yes.talking out of his back end as usual

maynooth_rules

Why is the question never put to Trump about how he feels about the prospect of the Good Friday agreement being pissed on by Boris. Democrats have already stated there will be no trade deal if the good Friday agreement hasn't been respected. Why hasn't Trump done so. Why did we role the red carpet out for him to come here and try and gain the green vote in the US. Does he care about peace on this island?

Stop moaning ffs

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Why is the question never put to Trump about how he feels about the prospect of the Good Friday agreement being pissed on by Boris. Democrats have already stated there will be no trade deal if the good Friday agreement hasn't been respected. Why hasn't Trump done so. Why did we role the red carpet out for him to come here and try and gain the green vote in the US. Does he care about peace on this island?

Don’t think for a blink of an eye moment he knows what the GFA is.

He didn’t know what the NHS was when he said they were taking it on his trip to the uk

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile, provisional trade deals are being made in preparation for a "no deal" Brexit.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal it would lose these trade deals immediately - worth about 11% of total UK trade.

Add to that 11% the EU to whom go 46% of UK exports, 54% of imports.

Also add Turkey who are in the Customs Union. They make Ford Tansit vans.

The UK exported £7.1bn ($9.4bn) worth of goods and services to Turkey in 2017, according to the UK’s Office for National Statistics, while importing £10.4bn ($13.7bn).

The rest is mostly China, the US and India who will all want major concessions.

Other UK areas are dodgy banking and arms sales. A future EU crackdown won't help either.

bilston

J Mysterio wrote: »

What is remarkable is that the North has been reasonably muted. Little to no protests or bother of significance.

Ok, Lyra McKee was shot in an obvious tragedy, and there was the Derry car bomb (obvious warning), but not much besides? These are quickly forgotten about in the endless news cycle.

The Orange 'season' has passed with little trouble and it can be said that most people do indeed crave stability and peace so they can just get on with their lives, but NI has had the Sword of Damocles hanging over it for some time now, and no functioning government for years (enjoying the honour of a world record for this). Westminster has begun to make laws for NI, even if the most recent ot these seem to favour Nationalist sentiment.

I'm actually surprised that the dissident elements haven't tried to focus minds a little more? That they haven't really woken from their light slumber? Obviously I dont want to precipitate violence but I guess there may have been calculations on the IRA side that to cause trouble might be counter productive as the UK is the weak element in negotiations. That might change however with the hardening of positions and the UK's intransigence on NI...

I don't think leaving the EU itself is what gets peoples' backs up, after all not many people feel much of an attachment to the EU.

However it's the consequences of leaving the EU that are the issue, and you won't see those consequences until the UK (inc. NI) have left. That's when people will start getting angry.

Water John

That clip of Peter Foster is the best piece of straight taking Iv'e seen in a long time, thanks for that.

lawred2

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But he did quietly reply and it still has them all aflutter.

I'm in no way suggesting we should abandon our first class diplomacy of the last 5 years but we should also not hide what we think is right, especially when it concerns citizens of ours that are being sidelined by this English Nationalist omnishambles.

So if they don't like the reality or being told about it, then that's their problem. Not ours.

This is a fact often overlooked. Especially by Westminster. There are Irish citizens living in the north whose rights are being actively eroded without their accord.

Damn right that the Irish government speaks plainly and firmly for them.

Sam Russell

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Why is the question never put to Trump about how he feels about the prospect of the Good Friday agreement being pissed on by Boris. Democrats have already stated there will be no trade deal if the good Friday agreement hasn't been respected. Why hasn't Trump done so. Why did we role the red carpet out for him to come here and try and gain the green vote in the US. Does he care about peace on this island?

Why did nobody react to Dominic Raab's revelation that he had not read the GFA at all, despite it only being 38 pages long and him being the Secretary of State for Brexit - which project is being held up by having to respect the GFA?

If the SoS for Brexit does not see the need to read the GFA, it is not surprising that the POTUS does not read it either.

Has anyone asked B. Johnson if he has read the WA in total or even some of it?

Seth Brundle

Sammy Wilson speaking his mind again...

The hysterical and self-centred response from the Irish government to the reasonable demands of the prime minister to have the backstop removed from any exit deal from the European Union speaks volumes.

Mr Wilson said the “megaphone reaction” demonstrated “blatant attempts by Leo Varadkar and Co to use the Irish border as a means of undermining Britain’s referendum has backed fired on them and they know it”

He said: “The Irish Government walked the world stage and styled themselves as the victims of British aggression. ‘Poor little Ireland’ may have worked in the past but people are growing tired of the same old tune.”

“The game is up. They have overplayed their hand and they need to change course.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-accuses-government-of-poor-little-ireland-act-on-brexit-1.3969709

Seth Brundle

The Guardian is also reporting that the usual call that takes place when there's a new leader in the UK or Ireland to their counterpart hasn't yet happened after four days...

Boris Johnson yet to make a phone call to Irish PM Leo Varadkar