Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

People thought the moon landings were pivotal, but they weren't. They ended the space race, and started a 50 year retreat from manned space flight.

Well, that is your opinion.

The moon missions ended because they were pointless as there was no future in them. Technology at the time had been overstretched. Men currently occupy the Space Station as it circles the earth, and many unmanned missions have been successful.

However, there have been many missions (unmanned) such as Voyager I and II that have brought us huge value in terms of knowledge about the Solar System, and about the Universe.

Plans are there for manned missions to Mars - if ever they go ahead.

Kermit.de.frog

Sunday Times saying UK govt going to go all out for No Deal with no negotiations until the EU drops the backstop.

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/R-ofAjJIHtaB0unSz-ljNQ/https/storify.com/services/proxy/2/cCZW6SWMICBQ2xO2-Z6E7w/https/media.fyre.co/ZKNn62Tl6lE1ob4cBhig_stpp2807n001-01_1564258219_001.png

Prepare for a lot of nastiness coming Ireland's way. What we have seen so far is just the start.

There is no way they actually want to leave with No Deal. This is just a charade for the hard core Brexiter base.

hill16bhoy

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1155222882223624192

This from the Times. Telegraph leads with story on Javid splashing the cash on no deal. Three years ago people voted for the best deal ever, now its destination No Deal. Mental.

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1155223245618077696

Ooh, a "war" cabinet.

It's like The Day Today.

Did the Brits say "the Irish are ramping up the rhetoric"?!

Zubeneschamali

Nothing on Brexit since Christmas has had anything to do with the EU. It's all just for effect on Westminster politics. The EU just has to nod and smile until the next deadline forces the UK to acknowledge reality long enough to ask for another extension, and then go back to nodding and smiling.

Strazdas

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

People thought the moon landings were pivotal, but they weren't. They ended the space race, and started a 50 year retreat from manned space flight.

Brexit feels historic, but it is still possible that it never even happens and in 5 years Brexit and Boris are remembered only as farce.

My gut feeling is the UK is heading for something really bad. I could easily imagine riots in cities all over the country directly linked to Brexit (maybe that is the thing that would snap them out of the nuttiness).

Water John

Kermit, we have no way of knowing whether they would actually leave with No Deal. More importantly, we shouldn't be wasting any time trying to find the answer. Just play the game in front of us.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In five years time (if it happens) Brexit will be seen as the first step in the reversal of corporate globalisation, or the replacement of the EU with the US as the external influence over the UK.

I quite literally do not understand where this unadulterated nonsense comes from.

Brexits sole purpose was to remove tax directives from the EU from the UK sphere.

Coupled with that it's an ample opportunity for diaster capitalism, which will be a collective sell off off bits and pieces of the UK national services property etc to international hedge funds.


The pretence that this is not going to be a local coup with global money is laughable. I can't understand how someone can think this will make the UK some sort of North Korea isolated and void of foreign influence.


Gas stuff altogether. Do you come up with this yourself or is it twitter?


Reverse globalization ! Excellent!lol

reslfj

Deleted User wrote: »

.... Brexit will be seen as the first step in the reversal of corporate globalisation, ....

Not a chance in hell. Globalisation is her to stay. It's just like the Luddites in 1800-1825 did not succeed in removing any new technology for more than a few days or weeks.

Globalisation has nothing to do with the EU or US as organisations/states, but is driven by technology that has made it possible:

• To get a full container with goods from Asia/China to Europe or USA for around $1000.
• To fly to Australia return for under £500
• To browse almost for free even the .cn, .jp, .au or .nz web-domains from servers in these countries.
• etc, etc....

This is not going to change - not now, not ever.

I and most people will buy inexpensive clothes, shoes and phones ... from Asia or in some years from Africa. We will not - as in never - care about or buy any local production unless they they are strictly competitive. You simply can't save jobs by closing a country.
Protectionism is very much a dead-end and is* really only useful when doing trade deals to force trading partners to give up protectionism too.
The EU is the world leader in free trade keeping standards and safety high while most tariffs very low and for much trade at zero - ( e.g. EBA, high 0% quotas ...)

* Farm and food protection is to a degree needed to ensure countries can feed themselves if need be.

Deleted User wrote: »

or the replacement of the EU with the US as the external influence over the UK.

The US can't - not by a million miles - replace the EU in UK trade or in many other fields. Gravity is an unavoidable fact of life in trade. The UK will be forced to seek a comprehensive trade agreement and agreements around many other needed mutual relations with the EU27. The UK will have little choice, but to seek such deals even faster after a 'No Deal' Brexit.

I don't think the UK will get much influence on anything, but the UK will in the real world simply have to comply rigorously with all EU standards, rules and regulations for the SM and much outside the SM too.

And I may well be overly positive towards the UK and its negotiation leverage.

Lars

MrMusician18

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sunday Times saying UK govt going to go all out for No Deal with no negotiations until the EU drops the backstop.

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/R-ofAjJIHtaB0unSz-ljNQ/https/storify.com/services/proxy/2/cCZW6SWMICBQ2xO2-Z6E7w/https/media.fyre.co/ZKNn62Tl6lE1ob4cBhig_stpp2807n001-01_1564258219_001.png

Prepare for a lot of nastiness coming Ireland's way. What we have seen so far is just the start.

There is no way they actually want to leave with No Deal. This is just a charade for the hard core Brexiter base.

It's not a charade for the Brexit base, quite the opposite actually. It's a charade to provoke a vote of no confidence in Johnson's government to trigger the election he feels he'll win. And the party he returns with after the election win be moulded in the right wing image of the radicalised grass roots party. The script is writing itself for him, EU/remainers are thwarting the will of the people and only he can deliver them to the promised land.

The first past the post system would make it very difficult to stop him, and impossible if remain/labour don't have an electoral pact, while Brexit party/cons do. He could well win a landslide on 40pc of the vote.

Lackadaisical

Deleted User wrote: »

In five years time (if it happens) Brexit will be seen as the first step in the reversal of corporate globalisation, or the replacement of the EU with the US as the external influence over the UK.

Quite the opposite. Globalization and a free wheeling, absolutely economically liberal agenda will have cleaved their UK out of the EU and exposed it to the very harsh realities of raw globalization for the first time ever really. It’s going to be a relatively small and highly debt loaded player in a very changed world. It’s not the 1850s or the 1950s and a lot of things have changed.

The EU is big enough and developed enough to have become a global rule maker that’s capable of setting the agenda. None of its members are capable of that on their own and I suspect that’s why Trump is so anti EU. 27 weak European US dependencies rather than an independently minded Europe capable of pushing forward with its own social democracy type ideologies - that would appeal to someone who wants to eliminate competition and have global hegemony. The UK is very likely to end up as a rule taker, being unable to do anything other than what the US, China or possibly even the EU tells it. It is going to have to accept whatever rules of trade are imposed by those big players and won’t have a seat at the table in Brussels to have influence on those agendas.

The EU has been one of the major forces trying to regulate global corporations - it has regularly lead the way with antitrust and competition law, consumer protection, environmental regulation, workers rights, human rights and so on.

It’s not perfect and it’s a work in progress and always will be, but it’s still a hell of a lot better than going it alone and being bounced around.

fly_agaric

Lackadaisical wrote: »

The EU has been one of the major forces trying to regulate global corporations

Yes, the EU has been criticised for this by the US (pre Trump) at the behest of these corporations (who have captured the US political system).

It is currently under more direct attack from wealthy interests who fund eurosceptic movements and projects like "Brexit" for their own purposes.

Corporations and "plutocrats" are generally big fans of more (rather than less) corporate control over all our lives.

The EU obstructs them from applying their wealth & power to do what they want or it restricts their profits so they attack it.

BonnieSituation

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Sammy Wilson speaking his mind again...


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-accuses-government-of-poor-little-ireland-act-on-brexit-1.3969709

That would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. When loyalists become self aware it will be quite a day.

Lackadaisical

Lackadaisical wrote: »

The EU French has been one of the major forces trying to regulate global corporations -.

If it wasn't for the French, The US "multinationals" would be having free reign over where they place their European headquarter and choosing where they pay taxes, well, actually they have chosen to pay those lower taxes in Ireland.


The French have chosen to make them pay their share in France, something I agree with, one reason why I see the Brexit vote as being against globalisation.


It's one up on the globalist management in the UK that brings in cheap labour from anywhere to undermine the local workforce.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

The French have chosen to make them pay their share in France, something I agree with, one reason why I see the Brexit vote as being against globalisation.

Yeah, I think it can be fairly argued that the Brexit vote was one against globalization.

However, the disaster capitalists, oligarchs, special interests (like US healthcare firms) and press barons will use Brexit to foist more globalization on the British public, not less.

Take the purported US-UK trade deal which is supposed to be all things to all people. Who do you think the Congressmen and Congresswomen in the US who will have to ratify the deal will listen to? Boris Johnson? Nigel Farage? Of course not. They will listen to their local lobbies. That's chicken producers, pork producers, local industries, pharma firms, insurance firms, financial services providers, etc. These groups will demand greater access to the British market on the same terms they enjoy with the US market.

Take pork, for example. The US is extremely like to insist that the UK sign up to Sanitary and Phytosanitary Standards (SPS). US agricultural practices are appalling. For starters, 70% of antibiotics in the US are used as prophylactics on farm animals. The US also permits the use of Ractopamine, a phenol-based feed additive which is banned in 160 countries including China and Russia.

Brexit is a project designed to enrich a tiny few people at the expense of the many. The EU at least is supposed to seek international consensus to regulate globalization and endeavour to mitigate the unfairness that results from it by investing in poorer countries. All Brexit does is take the brakes off globalisation.

BonnieSituation

Leroy42 wrote: »

And the fact that No Deal isn't an outcome. It is a complete failure. The Tory party, and BP, are now running on the ticket of being unable to achieve something.

'Vote for me to ensure you get nothing done' is a new type of election slogan.

What is the plan after No Deal. FTA seems to be the goal but nobody seems to be asking the question why the EU would allow a crash out but then give in afterwards when the damage is done.

This is an absolutely wonderful post. It's just mind boggling.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, I think it can be fairly argued that the Brexit vote was one against globalization.

However, the disaster capitalists, oligarchs, special interests (like US healthcare firms) and press barons will use Brexit to foist more globalization on the British public, not less.

Take the purported US-UK trade deal which is supposed to be all things to all people. Who do you think the Congressmen and Congresswomen in the US who will have to ratify the deal will listen to? Boris Johnson? Nigel Farage? Of course not. They will listen to their local lobbies. That's chicken producers, pork producers, local industries, pharma firms, insurance firms, financial services providers, etc. These groups will demand greater access to the British market on the same terms they enjoy with the US market.

Take pork, for example. The US is extremely like to insist that the UK sign up to Sanitary and Phytosanitary Standards (SPS). US agricultural practices are appalling. For starters, 70% of antibiotics in the US are used as prophylactics on farm animals. The US also permits the use of Ractopamine, a phenol-based feed additive which is banned in 160 countries including China and Russia.

Brexit is a project designed to enrich a tiny few people at the expense of the many. The EU at least is supposed to seek international consensus to regulate globalization and endeavour to mitigate the unfairness that results from it by investing in poorer countries. All Brexit does is take the brakes off globalisation.

Yes, what the voters who voted for Brexit wanted and what the politicians who will "deliver" Brexit will provide are two completely different outcomes.
The main point that I have repeatedly stated that the EU is not the main issue to the discontent within the general population of the UK, it is being screwed over by globalist multinational corporations and local business leaders (English) who exploit the free movement of workers to undercut the locals.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, what the voters who voted for Brexit wanted and what the politicians who will "deliver" Brexit will provide are two completely different outcomes.
The main point that I have repeatedly stated that the EU is not the main issue to the discontent within the general population of the UK, it is being screwed over by globalist multinational corporations and local business leaders (English) who exploit the free movement of workers to undercut the locals.

For clarity sake and goal post moving. That is not what you said yesterday, when you made the initial point.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, I think it can be fairly argued that the Brexit vote was one against globalization.

However, the disaster capitalists, oligarchs, special interests (like US healthcare firms) and press barons will use Brexit to foist more globalization on the British public, not less.

Take the purported US-UK trade deal which is supposed to be all things to all people. Who do you think the Congressmen and Congresswomen in the US who will have to ratify the deal will listen to? Boris Johnson? Nigel Farage? Of course not. They will listen to their local lobbies. That's chicken producers, pork producers, local industries, pharma firms, insurance firms, financial services providers, etc. These groups will demand greater access to the British market on the same terms they enjoy with the US market.

Take pork, for example. The US is extremely like to insist that the UK sign up to Sanitary and Phytosanitary Standards (SPS). US agricultural practices are appalling. For starters, 70% of antibiotics in the US are used as prophylactics on farm animals. The US also permits the use of Ractopamine, a phenol-based feed additive which is banned in 160 countries including China and Russia.

Brexit is a project designed to enrich a tiny few people at the expense of the many. The EU at least is supposed to seek international consensus to regulate globalization and endeavour to mitigate the unfairness that results from it by investing in poorer countries. All Brexit does is take the brakes off globalisation.

Yes, what the voters who voted for Brexit wanted and what the politicians who will "deliver" Brexit will provide are two completely different outcomes.
The main point that I have repeatedly stated that the EU is not the main issue to the discontent within the general population of the UK, it is being screwed over by globalist multinational corporations and local business leaders (English) who exploit the free movement of workers to undercut the locals.

What evidence is there that FoM undercuts locals? Have the car plants, for example, buses in thousands or foreigners on lower rates?

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, what the voters who voted for Brexit wanted and what the politicians who will "deliver" Brexit will provide are two completely different outcomes.
The main point that I have repeatedly stated that the EU is not the main issue to the discontent within the general population of the UK, it is being screwed over by globalist multinational corporations and local business leaders (English) who exploit the free movement of workers to undercut the locals.

You were saying that Brexit could reverse globalization yesterday.

The UK isn't being screwed over by multinational corporations. It is being screwed over by years of failed austerity which was imposed for purely ideological reasons. I'd like to see an academic study to prove this assertion of local workers being undercut.

Big corporations are becoming less and less labour intensive. Facebook in 2018 only employed just over 35,000 workers for example (Source). Wages are set by the market with a minimum wage at the floor. People on zero-hours contracts would be better off asking why companies like Amazon are allowed to effectively not pay tax and why George Osborne vetoed an EU attempt to cap bankers bonuses, not vote to leave because the EU was looking at finally clamping down on tax avoidance.

Joe_ Public

Sophie Ridge trying hard to push Jeremy Corbyn to say he's a remainer, but it's fairly clear he's never going to say it, however much people want him to.

Silent Running

I think it would be a huge spike in Boris' plans if Corbyn stepped down. A new Labour leader - any new Labour leader - would make Labour more electable. If Corbyn were to step down now and, say, Starmer were to take over. It would give Labour a bit more time to set out their remain position to the electorate, and form a remain alliance. If Boris thinks he can get a majority over the Corbyn led Labour in a general election, he might have to think again if a Labour led remain alliance emerged as a viable alternative.

At this point, Corbyn is probably doing just as much to sabotage the UK as the ERG . If he knows this he is complicit. If he doesn't know this he is too stupid to hold his position.

Mr.Wemmick

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You were saying that Brexit could reverse globalization yesterday.

The UK isn't being screwed over by multinational corporations. It is being screwed over by years of failed austerity which was imposed for purely ideological reasons. I'd like to see an academic study to prove this assertion of local workers being undercut.

Big corporations are becoming less and less labour intensive. Facebook in 2018 only employed just over 35,000 workers for example (Source). Wages are set by the market with a minimum wage at the floor. People on zero-hours contracts would be better off asking why companies like Amazon are allowed to effectively not pay tax and why George Osborne vetoed an EU attempt to cap bankers bonuses, not vote to leave because the EU was looking at finally clamping down on tax avoidance.

I think we'd all like to see a transparent study to show what exactly is happening; however, austerity and international/corporate take over is not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It not only undercuts wages, it undercuts skilled service and local expertise.

One example, where I am based in the south of England, we have seen strapped-for-cash councils sell off much needed infrastructure and services. Many disability and SEN schools & centres have been sold to international and private companies that charge extortionate sums of the councils per individual then fail the child/young person and the families with no accountability, regulation or transparency. If profits fail, they simply sell up and move on.. expertise and training is at an all time low across the south east and I have seen first hand how private disability schools and centres are full to the brim with cheap, poorly trained staff.

And that is just one area, the same is happening across the board. The silent and dangerous corporate take over of NHS departments with no care or investment in people or communities is about to become mainstream. Boris and his ilk will deliver it all into corporate hands.

Joe_ Public

Not necessarily defending Corbyn, his flaws are fairly well apparent at this stage, but i do see a grim irony in all of this. For me, Labours current brexit position - a second referendum in all circumstances - actually seems the fairest and most democratic of the lot. But the brexit atmosphere just doesnt allow for such nuances anymore, it has to be one extreme or the other, hard brexit or remain/revoke, as if people's addled brains just cant handle any centre ground compromise anymore.

I find the Lib Dems position to be a bit disingenuous. They're campaigning for remain and gaining on the clarity of that, but it doesnt seem altogether clear whether that stance actually involves honouring a second no vote. Last week Jo Swinson said no, as did Green MP Caroline Lucas, this morning she appears to be saying yes, but it seems people have no issue at all with the ambiguity of that position. The Lib Dems seem a bit drunk on their recent popularity surge to me, challenging labour to push a vote of confidence the other day and all but ruling out working with them before or after an election just seems naive and unhelpful to me. The reality is they wont stop no deal brexit or boris johnson without cooperating with labour and she should remember that before all the power of leadership goes completely to her head.

Ultimate Seduction

Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

ancapailldorcha

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

Switzerland is effectively in both the single market and customs union via over 100 bilateral agreements with the EU.

BobbyBobberson

Lackadaisical wrote: »

There's a fairly significant possibility that this could end up as the biggest breakdown in Anglo-Irish relations since the 1920 and 30s. I don't really think we want to, or will be able to, placate this kind of nonsense.

The sense I'm getting is they're attempting to turn us into the Brexit scapegoat because they're hitting a brick wall by trying to deliver the impossible.

Strange times and I think they're likely to get stranger yet.

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

Switzerland has lots of the best parts of the EU

https://news.sky.com/story/why-the-clock-is-ticking-for-swiss-in-eu-treaty-talks-11565976

Leroy42

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

I think we'd all like to see a transparent study to show what exactly is happening; however, austerity and international/corporate take over is not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It not only undercuts wages, it undercuts skilled service and local expertise.

One example, where I am based in the south of England, we have seen strapped-for-cash councils sell off much needed infrastructure and services. Many disability and SEN schools & centres have been sold to international and private companies that charge extortionate sums of the councils per individual then fail the child/young person and the families with no accountability, regulation or transparency. If profits fail, they simply sell up and move on.. expertise and training is at an all time low across the south east and I have seen first hand how private disability schools and centres are full to the brim with cheap, poorly trained staff.

And that is just one area, the same is happening across the board. The silent and dangerous corporate take over of NHS departments with no care or investment in people or communities is about to become mainstream. Boris and his ilk will deliver it all into corporate hands.

But how is that the fault of either globalisation or the EU. They are selling it off because they are being starved of funds from central government. Schools are selling off sports grounds because they cannot get enough funding.

That is UK government policy. Nothing at all to do with the EU or globalisation. The corporations are merely taking advantage of the situation.

DOCARCH

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

Two quick things....

Switzerland is in the single market and allows freedom of movement (just about/with reluctance).

Two things the UK don't want!

Ultimate Seduction

So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

DOCARCH

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

In the main, they do not want freedom of movement (which would be a condition).