Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not necessarily defending Corbyn, his flaws are fairly well apparent at this stage, but i do see a grim irony in all of this. For me, Labours current brexit position - a second referendum in all circumstances - actually seems the fairest and most democratic of the lot. But the brexit atmosphere just doesnt allow for such nuances anymore, it has to be one extreme or the other, hard brexit or remain/revoke, as if people's addled brains just cant handle any centre ground compromise anymore.

I am not sure this is the case. AFAIK, they are advocating a ref on any Tory deal with them advocating remain in that instance.

But they still want a GE in order that they can do a deal and they have never said they would hold a vote on that.

BobbyBobberson

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

A lot of this was settled in the early days of the EU and the EU arent overly keen on the deal the swiss have. Plus Freedom of Movement isnt favourable amongst leavers.

MadYaker

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Why is the question never put to Trump about how he feels about the prospect of the Good Friday agreement being pissed on by Boris. Democrats have already stated there will be no trade deal if the good Friday agreement hasn't been respected. Why hasn't Trump done so. Why did we role the red carpet out for him to come here and try and gain the green vote in the US. Does he care about peace on this island?

Donald Trump has no idea what the GFA is, he probably thinks Ireland is still part of the UK.

Working class heroes

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

Britain are currently in, the Swiss were never in.
If Britain get a deal similar to the Swiss it would set a precedent. The EU do not want that, and rightly so.

Leroy42

The Swiss deal is aimed, ultimately, at getting them closer and thus getting them to join.

The UK are looking to leave.

One is a prospective client, the other is a prospective competitor. (and openly stated that they want to compete directly against the EU)

lawred2

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

Really? Switzerland is in the single market.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

I am not sure this is the case. AFAIK, they are advocating a ref on any Tory deal with them advocating remain in that instance.

But they still want a GE in order that they can do a deal and they have never said they would hold a vote on that.

That, i would accept, is the problem with Corbyn. I am 100% certain the policy is a referendum in any circumstance, but sometimes he chooses to be ambiguous about it. I dont know why, he's not good in interviews.

But he has said as much, going back for months, as here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/27/jeremy-corbyn-signals-more-support-for-second-referendum-after-voter-exodus

Also, all the reports indicate that their conference policy is going to spell that policy out and likely push them further towards the remain position:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-26/vote-corbyn-stop-brexit-how-labour-plans-to-take-on-johnson

Dont get me wrong, i'm not praising him for getting to a place where he should have been six months or even 2 years ago, but i can kind of see the difficulties of the position he's in.

Ultimate Seduction

lawred2 wrote: »

Really? Switzerland is in the single market.

What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.

Mr.Wemmick

Leroy42 wrote: »

But how is that the fault of either globalisation or the EU. They are selling it off because they are being starved of funds from central government. Schools are selling off sports grounds because they cannot get enough funding.

That is UK government policy. Nothing at all to do with the EU or globalisation. The corporations are merely taking advantage of the situation.

Where did I write globalisation or the EU in my post?

As written in my last sentence Boris/ Brexit will make it worst not better.

Enzokk

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's because it's a distraction tactic. Better to have people taking about ridiculous Rees Mogg than the real issues.

I shudder to think that this is actually not a distraction but something he believes in. It may look like a distraction and work like one, but much like Trump saying stupid things, it isn't done with a purpose. It just turns out the person doing it is actually that dim.

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.

There is a border for checking goods, as many a Brexiteer has tweeted about. They have gone on and on how easy it is to move between other countries and Switzerland as a person and ignored the checks for goods. This is because Switzerland is not in a customs union which means checks on goods for tariffs need to be done.

That is why the UK promise of no physical border infrastructure between Ireland and Northern Ireland can only be achieved if either the UK or NI on its own is in both the single market and the customs union. Together those two makes checks unnecessary but if you leave one of those then checks will need to be done.

If you have a customs union but you are not in the single market, then checks needs to be done to see if goods comply with EU single market rules and regulations like chlorinated chicken.

If you are in the single market but not in a customs union then checks needs to be done to confirm the correct external tariffs are being paid on goods entering the EU.

*This is my interpretation and I am open to be corrected.

murphaph

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.

Switzerland does have a border and it's a customs border in fact as CH is not in customs union with any of its neighbours except Lichtenstein.

It is however, effectively, in the single market so phytosanitary checks for example are not required on food products at the Swiss border.

There are spot checks for customs and small roads are often closed at night.

Edit: Sorry, Enzokk got there first.

ISOP

I see a ramping up of the confrontational language and blaming the EU/Irish on BBC being employed by Tories being interviewed now all the time, the "Irish backstop" the "undemocratic backstop" etc

lawred2

ISOP wrote: »

I see a ramping up of the confrontational language and blaming the EU/Irish on BBC being employed by Tories being interviewed now all the time, the "Irish backstop" the "undemocratic backstop" etc

What the hell does 'undemocratic backstop' mean?

Calina

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.

In short, they cannot have the same deal as the Swiss have because they do not want it. Much of what makes the Swiss arrangement possible is governed by the red lines May set out.

Switzerland has a border btw.

Enzokk

ISOP wrote: »

I see a ramping up of the confrontational language and blaming the EU/Irish on BBC being employed by Tories being interviewed now all the time, the "Irish backstop" the "undemocratic backstop" etc

They will never take responsibility for their own decisions and will always look for someone else to blame. At least Jo Swinson has come out and said they made mistakes when they were in coalition. Brexiteers will never take responsibility for the outcome of Brexit, because if they do they will admit they were trying to harm the UK and its people on purpose.

Calina

lawred2 wrote: »

What the hell does 'undemocratic backstop' mean?

I think it is to imply to the less aware that the UK is direct democracy driven.

Which it isn't.

lawred2

Calina wrote: »

I think it is to imply to the less aware that the UK is direct democracy driven.

Which it isn't.

Indeed.

Also one would think the obvious response would be to ask whether a majority voted for no deal Brexit!?

A Dub in Glasgo

The last couple of pages demonstrate the confusion that I see in the media / politics in the UK at the moment. The agreement that is on the table is the Withdrawal Agreement which is the enabler for an orderly withdrawal from the EU with three items settled on leaving (1. The €€€ bill 2. Citizens rights 3. The UK border in Ireland). The agreement that Brexiteers in UK what to talk about is the future trade / relationship agreement and it is patently obvious that the Brexiteers want to use all three items as leverage so that they can cherry pick the bits of the EU they like and dump the bits they do not like. The differences between the WA and the future is not really explored by the media in the UK (that I can see)

McGiver

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Switzerland is effectively in both the single market and customs union via over 100 bilateral agreements with the EU.

Tech note - Switzerland is not in the CU. Nor are EFTA countries. That's what allows them to set up their own FTAs with other countries.

EFTA are in the EEA (SM), except for the Swiss who supplant the EEA with a series of bilateral agreements, so they are de facto in the EEA as well.

Professor Moriarty

lawred2 wrote: »

Indeed.

Also one would think the obvious response would be to ask whether a majority voted for no deal Brexit!?

It's even more fundamental than that. FPTP is intrinsically undemocratic.

Strazdas

lawred2 wrote: »

What the hell does 'undemocratic backstop' mean?

Given that you cannot vote for it, it makes no sense.

However I sense that Johnson's use of the phrase is no accident. It may well have come from Cummings who has instructed Johnson to keep repeating it.

McGiver

Ultimate Seduction wrote:

So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

EU would hesitantly offer it. It was one of possible solutions.

The main issue here is - UK haven't asked for it!

reslfj

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

Switzerland is effectively in both the single market and customs union via over 100 bilateral agreements with the EU.

Switzerland is 100% in the SM, but not (fully) in the CU.

Switzerland has a history for good governance and people have a high confidence in it will be there tomorrow - was the case even in/after WWII.
Switzerland has had huge economical benefits from having a banking regime with 100% secrecy. This in, however, almost not the case anymore.
Switzerland has long tradition for producing ultra quality products that is in high demand world wide.

Lars

Professor Moriarty

Just a straw in the wind, no deal odds shortening daily. As low as 6/4 today.

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Just a straw in the wind, no deal odds shortening daily. As low as 6/4 today.

I'm not surprised. One thing that seems totally out of the question is any renegotiation of the WA. Johnson's language is so belligerent and provocative that it's impossible to see any real discussions.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

I'm not surprised. One thing that seems totally out of the question is any renegotiation of the WA. Johnson's language is so belligerent and provocative that it's impossible to see any real discussions.

He's in thrall to the ERG now. In fact he's become their glove puppet. They are adamant they won't accept the WA even without the backstop. The EU are adamant that the WA is the only way forward. Hopefully the adults in the HoC step forward.

reslfj

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

A lot of this was settled in the early days of the EU and the EU arent overly keen on the deal the swiss have. Plus Freedom of Movement isnt favourable amongst leavers.

There has traditionally been large benefits in being an early adaptor of formal relations in general and with the now very large EU27/28 in particular.
The UK rebate and the DK/UK opt-ins/outs are legacy stuff that is no longer available to new EU members.
One day we will have to get an EU Council/EU Parliament that can and will clean up most such outdated legacy rules.

In fact the EU has very explicitly stated that they are not going into any new bilateral multi treaty agreements where each treaty has mouse-trap clauses for things like FoM.
It's much to expensive to maintain 100+ agreements

The EU will have everything in the future under one association type agreement (or membership).

The cost of maintaining the treaties is of major importance for all agreements but not least for trade deals, where new conditions and changes are very common.

Lars

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He's in thrall to the ERG now. In fact he's become their glove puppet. They are adamant they won't accept the WA even without the backstop. The EU are adamant that the WA is the only way forward. Hopefully the adults in the HoC step forward.

It definitely suggests no UK-EU negotiations. Johnson's red lines are off the wall and won't even allow for them.

Stop moaning ffs

It’s the mail so take it as it is but it seems Johnson can go ahead with no deal legally.

No law to stop Brexit! Attorney General 'believes Boris Johnson can legally take Britain out of EU by October 31 even if he loses no confidence vote and government collapses'

https://trib.al/O7utohh

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

It definitely suggests no UK-EU negotiations. Johnson's red lines are off the wall and won't even allow for them.

He can't compromise because the ERG won't let him. The EU can't compromise because what's the point of the EU if they do. Maybe it's time to accept that the lunatics have taken over the asylum and just stop trying to accommodate them.