Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Kermit.de.frog

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

abff

I think you may need to sign in to access the article. I don't think I can reproduce it in full because of copyright, but the following extracts give an idea of the general flavour.

This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to the same independence and freedom.

This is painful and embarrassing stuff.


...


These uncertain fools have now led Ireland to be engulfed in a crisis as Boris Johnson, the new Prime Minister, seeks to lead Britain out of the EU either before or after an election.

Yet again we face a crisis of democracy, with little Ireland and the huge EU refusing to recognise the democratic decision of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The ridiculous country in which I live is helping Europe in this abuse.

Bruce Arnold

This stinks on so many levels.

An Claidheamh

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

He didn’t suggest it. He held a phone in on it on his show on LBC. You can listen back to it on the LBC app. Might not be up til tomorrow

Wonder if the same great LBC public who moan about a border poll are the same ones citing Irish freedom and independence as reasons why 'Éire' should not be in a customs union.

Big mistake to take any Brexiteer seriously.

Right now, Britain is not a serious country, their word, landbridge, international agreements cannot be taken seriously - as much as we can expect North Korea

A Dub in Glasgo

eagle eye wrote: »

Scotland had the opportunity in 2014 and said no. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

https://twitter.com/uk_together/status/506899714923843584?lang=en

imagehost

An Claidheamh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

Here here, remember the Sindo is the newspaper of FF/FG and controlled by Denis O'Brien, will be interesting if there is any fallout - Harris does what he's told after all.

Was actually wondering whether Myers will use this as a way to have the British remember he loves them despite the fact he's an anti-Semite...

An Claidheamh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

On another note, are the Daily Telegraph that dim that they think Irish people read their newspaper?

Or just content on riling up their echo chamber while their surroundings fall apart?
Delusional I suppose is the word.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see in tomorrow's Telegraph they continue to thrall through the SINDO "journalists" for opinion. One for each day of the week I guess.

Tomorrow Ellis O'Hanlon is the "useful idiot".

Expecting Kevin Myers by Friday for the clean sweep.

Pity it is Friday's edition Ellis is in, we could play a drinking game based on every time she mentions SF or a shinner. Double helpings if she manages to shoehorn Mairia Cahill in.

briany

An Claidheamh wrote: »

British generally don't integrate well to other cultures á la Spain, seems they are way too loyal to their backward media and its propaganda machine.

I think what has a lot to do with this is that English is pretty much the world lingua-franca, and the Anglosphere is the closest thing we have to a world culture. There is something of an expectation that you'll always be able to find someone who can speak English, if only a few words, wherever you go, so learning the local lingo isn't as high a priority. I'm not sure if Irish emigrants to Spain aren't as bad as the British for this sort of mentality. Maybe the Irish don't have the same arrogant edge. I'd be interested to see some figures on it to know one way or the other.

Water John

Simply trying to prove to the base that the Irish are not of one voice. So get a few loopers to write oped pieces.

lawred2

abff wrote: »

I think you may need to sign in to access the article. I don't think I can reproduce it in full because of copyright, but the following extracts give an idea of the general flavour.

This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to the same independence and freedom.

This is painful and embarrassing stuff.


...


These uncertain fools have now led Ireland to be engulfed in a crisis as Boris Johnson, the new Prime Minister, seeks to lead Britain out of the EU either before or after an election.

Yet again we face a crisis of democracy, with little Ireland and the huge EU refusing to recognise the democratic decision of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The ridiculous country in which I live is helping Europe in this abuse.

Bruce Arnold

This stinks on so many levels.

Paper never refused ink. I wouldn't pay too much attention.

I would ask why the man hasn't gone 'home' yet though? 60 years living here and this is seemingly the low regard he holds for where he lives...

One would have to conclude that it mustn't be all that bad for him.

Or is it just that he'll write whatever bile he asked to write for a few shilling?

Whatever it is... A pathetic individual.

eagle eye

ancapailldorcha wrote:

What would be the point of Brexit then? There'd be no screening people entering Northern Ireland. There'd be no need for other countries to negotiate a trade deal as they can just export across the border with no problems. The Irish customs officers won't be bothering to check, that's for sure.

How does giving up so much control do the UK any good? And that's before we get to the violation of WTO rules that leaving the border unstaffed would constitute. Who wants to negotiate with a capricious rule breaker?

They'll do checks for entry to Great Britain.
NI is a can of worms and Johnson will just ignore it as much as he can.

Kermit.de.frog

The onslaught continues - it's not just opinion pieces

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/31/irish-pm-accused-project-fear-mark-2-row-no-deal-brexit/

reslfj

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I wonder will we see anyone with a head of sense realising that if there isn’t a border in place, or maybe even if there is, NI will be a backdoor for illegal immigrants using Ireland to scoot through over to the UK?

They never had any plans to police the border for immigrants because of the CTA.

Changing controls of people at the borders has always been very little but propaganda slogans.

The UK external borders or rather the CTA external borders has long since had full people control.

All with a passport from most developed countries (incl all EU/EEA countries) can enter the CTA via a customs entry point (a harbour/airport) and stay within the CTA for a period (pt. 90 days) This has been so for very many years.

Borders can only be used to check people without papers and catch wanted people (e.g. via Europol databases).

FoM in its EU flavour not much about passing borders, but it's mostly about a permanent home and a job in another EU member state. It is also about commuting home-job across a border.
For EU/EEA/Swiss citizens permanent stay and/or (not)working can only be controlled at their UK workplaces and via their landlords - not at the border.

The RoI-NI border backstop is only about control of standards, rules and regulations for goods. If no FTA is agreed tariffs may also have to be paid.


Lars

PS!
I did enter the UK once at Heathrow in the early 1980's on

1. a hotel reservation,
2. a return ticket and
3. my drivers license (I forgot my passport).

That was, however, great English flexibility and nothing like the regular procedure.

Enzokk

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-brexit-side-deals-no-deal_uk_5d41922ee4b0db8affb16033

The latest on UK governments strategy. Unreal. They continue to try and split the EU and are now looking for side deals.

So the plan is to leave with no-deal and then to wait for the damage to hit European countries and for those countries to pressure the EU to make a deal with the UK. I see one flaw in that plan, what will happen in the UK at the same time? Does it not occur to anyone that they will suffer more in the same time and will be even more desperate to make a deal?

asteroids over berlin

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it. Who is the new Cambridge analytica pushing this forward.
Stand firm Leo, Simon & EU!

Enzokk

Ben Done wrote: »

I love this point at the end of Verhofstat"s Guardian piece:



https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/31/boris-johnson-eu-no-deal-brexit-uk-government-backstop?

The grownups is starting to talk now to the petulant child. He will still kick and scream, but in the end you hope he will calm down and sense will prevail.

I do like this paragraph from Verhofstadt,

Despite the irresponsible language of the self-styled disrupters now at the heart of the British government, it is clear that Britain’s prosperity and European security are intertwined. Britain’s rightful place lies at the heart of the European project, fighting for a rules-based liberal world order. Brexit is more than a tragedy – it is a waste of all of our time, in an era when China and the US are fighting for global hegemony and the climate crisis threatens our very existence.

The invitation is still there for the UK to participate in the EU and to make the world a better place for all of us in these troubling times we face.

briany

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it. Who is the new Cambridge analytica pushing this forward.
Stand firm Leo, Simon & EU!

The tactic has to be that you'd pump money into some Eurosceptic groups and individuals within Ireland in order to make FG/FF feel like pursuing the current stance re:Brexit will hurt rather than help their electoral chances. Expect the trolls to be working overtime.

Mr.Wemmick

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it. Who is the new Cambridge analytica pushing this forward.
Stand firm Leo, Simon & EU!

The more pressure they put on Ireland and the EU, the sooner it'll backfire.

They are coming across as complete and utter fools. No where to go and no ideas left other than to pile on the crap to see if something gives. Bless.

reslfj

asteroids over berlin wrote: »

UK media are being orchestrated to put pressure on Ireland, no doubt about it.

The non-renegotiation of the WA is not a Dublin decision but an all EU27 decision. It is deep down all EU27 members protection of the entire SM which is the star of the EU.

Ireland will have much support from the other EU27 members for genuine Irish interests. But expect very little EU willingness to follow requests from a bullied or scared Ireland. Ireland just doesn't call the shots itself.


Lars

FrancieBrady

Enzokk wrote: »

The grownups is starting to talk now to the petulant child. He will still kick and scream, but in the end you hope he will calm down and sense will prevail.

I do like this paragraph from Verhofstadt,



The invitation is still there for the UK to participate in the EU and to make the world a better place for all of us in these troubling times we face.

Bruce Arnold is one of a long line of those who speak of Britain's love of independence and democracy, it is basically lip service to it and the sad thing is, he probably believes it too. Johnson is a more boisterous version of Arnold and Verhofstadt is not stupid, he knows well how to deal with that chat and it is not to rise to it or tell them the truth.
Take a leaf out of his playbook Leo, don't rise to the bait and talk louder about independence and democracy.

KildareP

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The onslaught continues - it's not just opinion pieces

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/31/irish-pm-accused-project-fear-mark-2-row-no-deal-brexit/

Seeing more sensible comments this time amongst the usual bile.

I think their plan is ultimately misplaced and going to backfire, if it is intended to invoke a response this side of the Irish Sea, it is more likely to invoke a hardened stance against the British, even amongst those who don't follow Brexit, than to turn us against the government.

If it is intended for domestic consumption well what will it matter really come Oct 31st.

lawred2

https://twitter.com/BrexitBin/status/1156650410129723392?s=19

Behold the greatest speech of our time

This stuff is just beyond awful. The teleprompted face changes are hilarious.

"This is a disgrace"

God help us if this is what they've put their faith in...

Gunmonkey

Enzokk wrote: »

So the plan is to leave with no-deal and then to wait for the damage to hit European countries and for those countries to pressure the EU to make a deal with the UK. I see one flaw in that plan, what will happen in the UK at the same time? Does it not occur to anyone that they will suffer more in the same time and will be even more desperate to make a deal?

I dunno, maybe they are so wrapped up with the delusion that the USA will swoop in on Nov 1st with a massive trade deal and solve all their problems while silly Johnny-foreigner stews and seethes with his unsold goods *guffaw*

But I highly doubt the the current shower in the White House have good intentions behind egging Britain on with Brexit.

reslfj wrote: »

The non-renegotiation of the WA is not a Dublin decision but an all EU27 decision. It is deep down all EU27 members protection of the entire SM which is the star of the EU.

Ireland will have much support from the other EU27 members for genuine Irish interests. But expect very little EU willingness to follow requests from a bullied or scared Ireland. Ireland just doesn't call the shots itself.


Lars

I really dont know either what their hope for "turning" Ireland to their side would be? We would rush to Brussels to fight and plead for a good deal for Britain? Or do they believe their own BS and think we would "Irexit" shortly after they do to save our economy (seeing as Farage was over here trying to stir that crock of bull months ago)

KildareP

The comments are brilliant - including the bot that has gone rogue

Summary of most comments:

No Deal will decimate Ireland - they point to our ERSI, Central Bank reports as source = Ireland is a dead duck for sure

No Deal will decimate the UK - points to equivalent UK sources = project fear

Strazdas

lawred2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrexitBin/status/1156650410129723392?s=19

Behold the greatest speech of our time

This stuff is just beyond awful. The teleprompted face changes are hilarious.

"This is a disgrace"

God help us if this is what they've put their faith in...

Perhaps she should be asking why Britain is importing things such as fruit. It would never even occur to her that fruit grown in a warmer climate would be superior to the British variety.

54and56

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Here here, remember the Sindo is the newspaper of FF/FG and controlled by Denis O'Brien, will be interesting if there is any fallout - Harris does what he's told after all.

You're not too up on current affairs there An Claidheamh, DOB sold out a few weeks ago and the SINDO is now owned by https://www.mediahuis.be.

Frank Bullitt

God, if this kind of rhetoric is bad now...we have around 90 days left of it.

Again, I live in Canada, so I can't read the reaction in general to Brexit in Ireland, but I hope to Christ that we stick true to this. This mess is Britains and theirs alone.

Mefistofelino

Arnold has previous form in this field . A decade ago he was a one-man hallelujah chorus for Declan Hanley and Libertas - another group on the "anti-democratic Brussels" bandwagon.

First Up

If there is a poll in Northern Ireland (and who knows, there might) there will be three options;
-Stay in the UK (outside the EU)
-Merge with ROI (inside the EU)
-Cede from the UK and become an independent country (and vote later on applying for EU membership)

I know which would win.

FrancieBrady

Strazdas wrote: »

Perhaps she should be asking why Britain is importing things such as fruit. It would never even occur to her that fruit grown in a warmer climate would be superior to the British variety.

Or that the British like the Irish won't eat their own fruit and prefer the continental stuff. If supermarkets could sell it they would...no brainer for them.