Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

A Dub in Glasgo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The sight of English Labour MPs parading around Scotland campaigning for a vote for a continuance of English dominance over Scottish independence was galling.

The most cringing part of that was the group of English Labour MPs who all travelled on the same train from England and walked en mass from Glasgow Central station. This guy managed to capture them well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&t

Water John

The biggest lesson Johnson and Farage will take from yesterday's byelection is that, one leave candidate would have won it. That will not be lost on them. So Farage can pile on the pressure if there is a likelyhood of a GE before leaving. He'll only stand back if Johnson assures him.
The counter to that is Johnson knows he's cooked if Brexit Party runs candidates.

Maybe the Tory candidate was popular, I think he was, despite the false invoices. Otherwise the Leave vote in that constituency hasn't changed since 2016.

J Mysterio

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The most cringing part of that was the group of English Labour MPs who all travelled on the same train from England and walked en mass from Glasgow Central station. This guy managed to capture them well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&t

Oh my god, that is absolutely hilarious.

BluePlanet

volchitsa wrote: »

in the UK people seem to have bought into the Brexit idea without knowing why, it's like they just "feel it in their waters" or something. There's no argument to be had, it's just a fact. Like saying you don't like a group and don't want to go to their concert.

Yes, this is really dark stuff going on.
It's as though a mass brainwashing has been occurring, slowly ticking away over the last couple decades.

It's the sort of irrational hyper-patriotism thing you see in USA when you have anything remotely negative to say about the US, say about healthcare; people get all red-faced and react emotionally.

People have learned these emotional triggers.

Kaybaykwah

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yes, this is really dark stuff going on.
It's as though a mass brainwashing has been occurring, slowly ticking away over the last couple decades.

It's the sort of irrational hyper-patriotism thing you see in USA when you have anything remotely negative to say about the US, say about healthcare; people get all red-faced and react emotionally.

People have learned these emotional triggers.

You have to realize that there are the nefarious Powers that be, those pulling the strings in both the UK, the US steering the candidacies of party leaders outside of the popular will.

Bernie Sanders was isolated by the DNC in the last campaign, and will again be sunk by those who are beholdened to massive special interests. Who needs Russian inteference when Goldman Sachs and Davos creeps have got it all down?

Stop moaning ffs

Brilliant interview with Billy Bragg on brexit on the it podcast.
Such an insightful mind.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/irish-times-inside-politics/id794389685?i=1000445935266

Water John

A new poster, but well accuainted with, whataboutery.
The purge of the voting register might be more worthy of concern;
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/01/voter-purges-us-elections-brennan-center-report

prawnsambo

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

You have to realize that there are the nefarious Powers that be...

I thought this was satirical...


Anyhow, the link between the US and UK is the similarity in the political systems. Two tribes essentially and a winner takes all mentality. "You lost, get over it" pretty much sums it up. Fintan O'Toole's book expands on this.

Valhallapt

You couldn’t make this stuff up

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

Sorry not sure how to embed tweet from mobile

FrancieBrady

Fintan O'Toole with an interesting proposal. Hard to see how Westminister wouldn't see this as anything other than the 'RA in sheep's clothing though.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121?fbclid=IwAR0MMOmRebJyRLWKXAo5LU3MXyt4DBVi_vdIzrbzi2qNr09SsEIv-1_MGmY

farmchoice

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole with an interesting proposal. Hard to see how Westminister wouldn't see this as anything other than the 'RA in sheep's clothing though.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121?fbclid=IwAR0MMOmRebJyRLWKXAo5LU3MXyt4DBVi_vdIzrbzi2qNr09SsEIv-1_MGmY

in fairness to fintan it is an original and imaginative proportion. i ca see many reasons why sinn fein might not go for it but even if they did i'm not sure it would make a difference.


as it stands johnson does not have a working majority on brexit, any vote that may take place to stop a no deal brexit will pass.


whether or not such a vote will occur is the question.

DOCARCH

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole with an interesting proposal. Hard to see how Westminister wouldn't see this as anything other than the 'RA in sheep's clothing though.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121?fbclid=IwAR0MMOmRebJyRLWKXAo5LU3MXyt4DBVi_vdIzrbzi2qNr09SsEIv-1_MGmY

Interesting proposal! Can you imagine Adrian Dunbar in the HoC....hey fella!

Maybe SF would be more worried their MPs would not get re-elected!!!

FrancieBrady

farmchoice wrote: »

in fairness to fintan it is an original and imaginative proportion. i ca see many reasons why sinn fein might not go for it but even if they did i'm not sure it would make a difference.


as it stands johnson does not have a working majority on brexit, any vote that may take place to stop a no deal brexit will pass.


whether or not such a vote will occur is the question.

Can you imagine the ERG's response to it though. Thinking about it, although novel, it would only serve to harden middle ground opinion in the wrong direction. Counterproductive.

FrancieBrady

DOCARCH wrote: »

Interesting proposal!

Maybe SF would be more worried their MPs would not get re-elected!!!

Well, wouldn't any party for that matter. Voters might not be impressed either and abstain.

Kaybaykwah

prawnsambo wrote: »

I thought this was satirical...

No, it was a straightpipe intro, I'm afraid.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Anyhow, the link between the US and UK is the similarity in the political systems. Two tribes essentially and a winner takes all mentality. "You lost, get over it" pretty much sums it up. Fintan O'Toole's book expands on this.

Yes, in France, the last election sort of created the same kind of questioning about the future of the old system of Right and Leftist parties that got the boot. Macron is definitely the product of a steerage committee from the new Imperialists; the dismantlers of Nation states; i.e.; Corporate interests. That is the sad thing about the E.U. The leadership is less concerned with local interests by definition and on the street, as it were.

farmchoice

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you imagine the ERG's response to it though. Thinking about it, although novel, it would only serve to harden middle ground opinion in the wrong direction. Counterproductive.

ya at best it i think it would achieve little and at worst it could alienate some pro eu tory mp's.

Strazdas

Valhallapt wrote: »

You couldn’t make this stuff up


https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

The Irish Govt wouldn't even be allowed negotiate Britain's relationship with the Single Market "bilaterally" with the UK. It's purely a negotiation between the UK and the EU.

Tell me how

Strazdas wrote: »

The Irish Govt wouldn't even be allowed negotiate Britain's relationship with the Single Market "bilaterally" with the UK. It's purely a negotiation between the UK and the EU.

It's Arlene Foster talking to JHB.
It's for a target audience. It's not public discussion.

Kermit.de.frog

Northern Ireland is bailed out every single year to a tune so large they don't want UK taxpayers to know.

Plus UK bilateral contribution to Irish bailout was a small percentage of the overall bailout from bilateral loans, IMF and EU.

A Dub in Glasgo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole with an interesting proposal. Hard to see how Westminister wouldn't see this as anything other than the 'RA in sheep's clothing though.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121?fbclid=IwAR0MMOmRebJyRLWKXAo5LU3MXyt4DBVi_vdIzrbzi2qNr09SsEIv-1_MGmY

Now that is a new take on things

The one thing to be cautious of is the myriad and archiac rules regarding parliament so would have to be pretty certain that there is no way the knowledgable folk in the HoC can stop it

FrancieBrady

Valhallapt wrote: »

You couldn’t make this stuff up

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

Sorry not sure how to embed tweet from mobile

What does Arlene believe Johnson and Leo can achieve would be an interesting question. Is Boris holding something back from the EU that he might offer Leo?

Tell me how

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What does Arlene believe Johnson and Leo can achieve would be an interesting question. Is Boris holding something back from the EU that he might offer Leo?

He is in his bleep.

A bilateral conversation would allow UK to try to bully Ireland in to some acceptance of a hypothetical joint effort to come to a solution.

It's playground tactics of a bully telling the guy who owns the football, ' come here till I talk to you'.

Kaybaykwah

It's one thing to consider Leo's tactical disadvantage as a personal or Party weakness, what not; but at the end of the day; the EU has a lot of responsibility in dealing the backstop issue, notwithstanding the GFA.

Seth Brundle

I presume his self-reflection is largely based on a telling off by FF HQ...

Fianna Fáil’s communications spokesman Timmy Dooley has admitted that his tweet earlier this week criticising the Taoiseach was “ill-timed and a little harsh”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/timmy-dooley-concedes-brexit-remarks-a-little-harsh-1.3975414

Shelga

Arlene Foster talks as if she personally lent us £3.2 billion.

Never mind the fact that her economic basket case of a region receives an annual subvention of three times that, annually.

And we’ve paid back £358million in interest alone, as of 2017. The ‘mainland’ sees no similar return on investment for the amount they give to NI.

She’s not English. Does she realise that? Massive, massive inferiority complex she seems to have.

Awful politics, awful party.

FrancieBrady

Tell me how wrote: »

He is in his bleep.

A bilateral conversation would allow UK to try to bully Ireland in to some acceptance of a hypothetical joint effort to come to a solution.

It's playground tactics of a bully telling the guy who owns the football, ' come here till I talk to you'.

Precisely why Arlene wants to get Johnson in there imo. Let him come I say, and let him leave with a flea in his ear.

Strazdas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What does Arlene believe Johnson and Leo can achieve would be an interesting question. Is Boris holding something back from the EU that he might offer Leo?

The idea from the hard Brexiteers is that the UK and Ireland could come to some sort of side deal which completely bypasses the rules of the Single Market and perhaps even the GFA

It's completely missing the point that the negotiation is between the UK and EU Single Market. Ireland can't do some private handshake deal that ignores SM rules, it's not allowed.

Shelga

Also can these headbangers not start being shut down with “the ERG wont vote for anything even if we remove the backstop, so there is no point anyway”.

FrancieBrady

Strazdas wrote: »

The idea from the hard Brexiteers is that the UK and Ireland could come to some sort of side deal which completely bypasses the rules of the Single Market and perhaps even the GFA

It's completely missing the point that the negotiation is between the UK and EU Single Market. Ireland can't do some private handshake deal that ignores SM rules, it's not allowed.

That is my point. If there is something else or extra that boris can offer, why doesn't he do it in the EU negotiations.

It's all a pile of 'blame the Irish' nonsense from Arlene and Johnson.

Lackadaisical

Strazdas wrote: »

The idea from the hard Brexiteers is that the UK and Ireland could come to some sort of side deal which completely bypasses the rules of the Single Market and perhaps even the GFA

It's completely missing the point that the negotiation is between the UK and EU Single Market. Ireland can't do some private handshake deal that ignores SM rules, it's not allowed.

It's missing the point but they aren't doing so out of ignorance. It's clearly just that they don't care that they're asking for a list of impossible things. This entire process has been about promising undeliverable policies and then blaming foreigners or "them lot over there who we don't like".

The general sense I've picked up from some of them over the last while is they don't particularly care what the Republic of Ireland's priorities are, many of them don't really even accept that we're a real country rather than just some even more rogue version of Scotland that has to be bullied back into the UK again somehow. They'd rather see us pushed out of the EU and the EU destroyed.

That's what you're trying to negotiate with!
From what I can see trying to explain and re-explain the Irish and EU positions to the ERG and DUP is a bit like banging your head off a brick wall. They don't care and they won't listen to any kind of rational argument. All we can do is appeal to the pragmatic centre of British politics, assuming there still is one.