Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

J Mysterio

That's a mad, hair brained scheme from O'Toole. I'm surprised he thought it a good idea to publish it really.

Lackadaisical

J Mysterio wrote: »

That's a mad, hair brained scheme from O'Toole. I'm surprised he thought it a good idea to publish it really.

At this stage, we should be throwing ALL potential political solutions into the public domain. Something seriously different has to happen if this is not going to just tumble into a complete mess by Halloween.

It could be the most harebrained scheme that ultimately ends up as a solution to this mess.

Limpy

50% voted for brexit party's. Will they make a pact? One wonders

Kaybaykwah

Lackadaisical wrote: »

It's missing the point but they aren't doing so out of ignorance. It's clearly just that they don't care that they're asking for a list of impossible things. This entire process has been about promising undeliverable policies and then blaming foreigners or "them lot over there who we don't like".

The general sense I've picked up from some of them over the last while is they don't particularly care what the Republic of Ireland's priorities are, many of them don't really even accept that we're a real country rather than just some even more rogue version of Scotland that has to be bullied back into the UK again somehow. They'd rather see us pushed out of the EU and the EU destroyed.

That's what you're trying to negotiate with!
From what I can see trying to explain and re-explain the Irish and EU positions to the ERG and DUP is a bit like banging your head off a brick wall. They don't care and they won't listen to any kind of rational argument. All we can do is appeal to the pragmatic centre of British politics, assuming there still is one.

Makes sense, since they cannot abide the EU.

Also, the engrained reflex of the English toward Ireland. I mean, they can go on
about the beauty of the Magna Carta and parliamentarism, contrasted with the meager gains over centuries of demands by Irish Nationalists is a prelude to the present British attitude toward Ireland.

Sam Russell

farmchoice wrote: »

ya at best it i think it would achieve little and at worst it could alienate some pro eu tory mp's.

Well, first it would reduce BJ majority to -5 or -6, but definitely minus. In that case, a vote of NC gets the HoC into new Gov territory. Well, can those that voted NC form a Gov that does command a majority? They can. Even if every Tory and DUP votes, then, yes, they can, but many Tories that are pro-EU would definitely vote for it, particularly if the nomination for PM was a Tory (and definitely not JC).

So with a new PM, just revoke Art 50, negotiate a new deal with the EU to settle nerves, and pass legislation to make it next to impossible to invoke Art 50 again - such as requiring a two third majority in the HoC. Now to overturn such legislation would require a vote in the undemocratic House of Lords which is pro-EU.

I think that would end the Brexit fiasco. No one mentions the Poll Tax, or the Miners strike (well there are no mines or miners left).

They will get over it.

Eventually.

axer

J Mysterio wrote: »

That's a mad, hair brained scheme from O'Toole. I'm surprised he thought it a good idea to publish it really.

Yes, not only is it a stupid idea but I would have thought he was more informed to see that the mess in UK is exactly what Sinn Fein want - the UK might, through a no deal exit, give them the best chance (if not only chance) at achieving a united Ireland that they will ever have. This reason along with the bill that was passed in Westminster bringing gay marriage and abortion to the north if there is no stormont assembly by October 21st is exactly why they should just sit on their hands on everything to do with Stormont and Brexit. Their two enemies - the UK Government and DUP are destroying themselves.

J Mysterio

Lackadaisical wrote: »

At this stage, we should be throwing ALL potential political solutions into the public domain. Something seriously different has to happen if this is not going to just tumble into a complete mess by Halloween.

It could be the most harebrained scheme that ultimately ends up as a solution to this mess.

Let the UK offer a solution. It's their mess and they need to sort it out.

All we need to do is sit and wait. The WA was negotiated.

Tell me how

axer wrote: »

Yes, not only is it a stupid idea but I would have thought he was more informed to see that the mess in UK is exactly what Sinn Fein want - the UK might, through a no deal exit, give them the best chance (if not only chance) at achieving a united Ireland that they will ever have. This reason along with the bill that was passed in Westminster bringing gay marriage and abortion to the north if there is no stormont assembly by October 21st is exactly why they should just sit on their hands on everything to do with Stormont and Brexit. Their two enemies - the UK Government and DUP are destroying themselves.

If SF haven't learned from this Brexit fiasco then they need to have a good long think about themselves and their true purpose.

If all they want is a UI at all costs, ASAP it would entail a referendum with no awareness of what a UI would look like or the implications vis a vis flag, anthem, national celebration, NHS legacy etc etc.

Or, if the want a strong cohesive UI then they must have an acceptance that Brexit has to be put to bed and then we need to start the long process of looking at the above topics and developing proposals and then having a referendum and if passed, moving towards integration.

I suspect the latter would be at least a 20 year time frame before completed and if SF aren't willing to accept that then they are not really too different to the Brexiteers. (Which might not be the case anyway given their previous distrust of the EU)

FrancieBrady

J Mysterio wrote: »

Let the UK offer a solution. It's their mess and they need to sort it out.

All we need to do is sit and wait. The WA was negotiated.

Exactly. Sit back and let the pressure mount on them...and it will despite the bluster. Either Johnson will fold or parliament will take the necessary action.
This is an internal British matter - grab the popcorn and sit back.

serfboard

Tell me how wrote: »

If all they want is a UI at all costs, ASAP it would entail a referendum with no awareness of what a UI would look like or the implications vis a vis flag, anthem, national celebration, NHS legacy etc etc.

Unlike Brexit (a referendum that had no clear vision of what type of Brexit was wanted), a UI referendum should only take place after all these details are worked out so that people know exactly what they are voting for.

That in itself would be a long process, so for sure, it's not an immediate solution - and I don't think that it is being presented as such either.

Kaybaykwah

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Exactly. Sit back and let the pressure mount on them...and it will despite the bluster. Either Johnson will fold or parliament will take the necessary action.
This is an internal British matter - grab the popcorn and sit back.

Don't forget the cold pints!

FrancieBrady

serfboard wrote: »

Unlike Brexit (a referendum that had no clear vision of what type of Brexit was wanted), a UI referendum should only take place after all these details are worked out so that people know exactly what they are voting for.

That in itself would be a long process, so for sure, it's not an immediate solution - and I don't think that it is being presented as such either.

The Scottish Independence Ref was called in 2012 (it was held in 2014) with the publication by the Scottish government of a 640 page White Paper.

A 2 year conversation about a UI would probably be deemed enough by the SoS.

The UI question here would be framed by the Irish government I would imagine.
In the GFA ref, agreeing to constitutional change was taken as a vote in favour of the GFA.

Seth Brundle

The Express have now hired Frederick Forsyth to spew more anti-EU bile...
There is a secret letter to end this Irish backstop nonsense, says FREDERICK FORSYTH[/quote]

MANY of us thought we had seen the backside of the Irish Backstop – but it is back in full anti-British malign force. Basically, this ludicrous capitulation by Theresa May has no benefit for the EU at all but would cause huge damage to Britain.

But the mandarins of Brussels are covertly terrified that if the UK leaves and then prospers it would set a terrible example. Others, as the EU economy slips further and further behind ours, would think, "Why not us too?" Not the bureaucrats of course, but the teeming unemployed – who all have votes. Hence the brief of Michel Barnier – humiliate and diminish the UK.

Capt'n Midnight

Tell me how wrote: »

Turnout was down a lot from 2 years ago. Maybe a lot of would be Labour voters stayed at home, leaving Tories with a high score albeit no seat.

Actually it's the highest turnout for a by-election since Winchester in 1997.

Tell me how

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Actually it's the highest turnout for a by-election since Winchester in 1997.

So?

It's still a drop from when the constituents last voted for their MP.

Sam Russell

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The Express have now hired Frederick Forsyth to spew more anti-EU bile...
There is a secret letter to end this Irish backstop nonsense, says FREDERICK FORSYTH

I read that and wish I hadn't. The GFA is lodge as an international agreement with the UN. It is Britain that is going against the GFA, and it them leaving the EU that gives rise to the backstop.

Utter twaddle. F. Forsyth should stick to writing books with convoluted plots instead of getting involved with convoluted ERG plots.

BluePlanet

But the mandarins of Brussels are covertly terrified that if the UK leaves and then prospers it would set a terrible example. Others, as the EU economy slips further and further behind ours, would think, "Why not us too?" Not the bureaucrats of course, but the teeming unemployed – who all have votes. Hence the brief of Michel Barnier – humiliate and diminish the UK.

It's not that surprising Brexiteers would subscribe to such a tin foil narrative.
The next question of any journalist should be:
Be that as may, did you not consider that beforehand and architect solutions accordingly? Why is this news now? What have you been doing the last 3 years if not planning on such an eventuality?

FrancieBrady

Sam Russell wrote: »

I read that and wish I hadn't. The GFA is lodge as an international agreement with the UN. It is Britain that is going against the GFA, and it them leaving the EU that gives rise to the backstop.

Utter twaddle. F. Forsyth should stick to writing books with convoluted plots instead of getting involved with convoluted ERG plots.

Fredrick should look to the people of the Chagos Islands when trying to run to the UN for help.
The UN told Britain to hand them back to the people they displaced, but the British decided not to recognise the court.

lawred2

Valhallapt wrote: »

You couldn’t make this stuff up

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1157197235597250561

Sorry not sure how to embed tweet from mobile

That thread is so depressing

J Mysterio

lawred2 wrote: »

That thread is so depressing

Wow, it's an absolute disaster. Ignorance abounds.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

I read that and wish I hadn't. The GFA is lodge as an international agreement with the UN. It is Britain that is going against the GFA, and it them leaving the EU that gives rise to the backstop.

Utter twaddle. F. Forsyth should stick to writing books with convoluted plots instead of getting involved with convoluted ERG plots.

People on Twitter commenting that the Vienna Treaty could only be invoked in the event of a hostile stand off between two countries, where threats and coercion were being used.

FrancieBrady

54&56 wrote: »

SNIP

How absolutely delicious :-)

The calm, consistent and professional behaviour of Leo, Simon, Helen and Neale combined with their refusal to take the bait trotted out by the Telegraph/ERG etc must be absolutely pi$$ing them off.

Long may it continue!!

That should be the EU 28 as Britain also agreed them.

eagle eye

54&56 wrote:

The calm, consistent and professional behaviour of Leo, Simon, Helen and Neale combined with their refusal to take the bait trotted out by the Telegraph/ERG etc must be absolutely pi$$ing them off.

You are limping people in there as calm, consistent and professional who don't deserve it, I'm talking about Leo and Neale.

Tell me how

eagle eye wrote: »

You are limping people in there as calm, consistent and professional who don't deserve it, I'm talking about Leo and Neale.

In terms of their performance on Brexit (relevant in the context of this thread). They deserve to be on the list.

briany

I thought the British plan was to hold off on a border in a no-deal, and then wait until the EU (or Irish under EU pressure, if you like) put up a border on the other side, at which point the UK could say, "Ah, well, you guys were the first to put up a border, so you guys broke the Good Friday Agreement. Well, no use in crying over spilled milk and all that. May as well put up a border of our own now, only fair. Let's get those trade talks going."

Has the UK come to the conclusion that this course of action would be more damaging than they're letting on, such that they're now ratcheting up the pressure on Ireland?

eire4

54&56 wrote: »

Deleted post.

Reading through the comments below and the ones with the British flags are quite comical really. Such petulant drivel which sadly is also what we have all too often seen coming from the leadership in London since this whole farce was started.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: As things develop, there is likely to be a significant increase in the amount of anti-Irish sentiment emanating from certain sections of the British media. Please try to make sure posts are original opinions composed with your own words. I would prefer not to see this thread become completely overrun with links to hostile articles and videos from said sections of the British media. Posts may be deleted for this reason.

Thank you.

Rjd2

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

*numerous versions of ‘please for the love of god stop making me defend Leo’ tweets and posts all over the place

I remember a great tweet a few months ago, if you were a Brit and who relied on the right wing press for your information on Ireland, you would think Leo is a volatile hardcore Republican.

brickster69

I never knew the US did hormone free beef. The guy said that the EU will be importing hormone free Beef

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1157354257689059331

BobbyBobberson

https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1157395907207450625

The UK is going to going to get absolutely rode in this US deal. If it even happens.