Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

10000maniacs

Duplicate post

jm08

brickster69 wrote: »

I never knew the US did hormone free beef. The guy said that the EU will be importing hormone free Beef

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1157354257689059331

This is a bone from the EU to Trump who is under fierce pressure from US farmers over Chinese tariffs.



This is a very good overview of the EU beef (hormone free) imports and how there has been a dispute with WTO over it.



https://www.fb.org/market-intel/wheres-the-hormone-free-beef

Joe_ Public

firemansam4 wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now, more as just a lurker.

I notice many here are hoping that if an election is called it may bring about another referendum.
But I don't think that another referendum would solve this brexit mess at all.
I just can't see any other outcome other than another majority for brexit.

The brexit crowd over there are treating this like a religion at this stage and you can guarantee that the vast majority of them would be out voting again on force in a 2nd referendum, its almost militant to them at this stage.

Where is all the opposition to brexit over there from remainers? I get the feeling that the turnout for remain voters would be a lot less. And it will end up just being a bigger margin for brexit in a second referendum leaving us all in the same mess we are at now.

Sorry to go back a bit, but i think in answer to your question, the remain vote remains vibrant but has had the wind taken out of its sails a bit by the recent concentration on the tory leadership contest and all the brouhaha over the border. I am certain it is there, just lying a bit dormant at the moment, for one reason or another. Dont forget the 1m who marched to parliament square last march or the many more millions who signed the petition. They haven't gone away, you know :-)

Strazdas

Bit cynical wrote: »

Farage's Brexit party would love for, say, Corbyn to come out and say that he doesn't respect the referendum result, the people got it wrong and, if made PM, he Corbyn would revoke A50.

That is why it is not realistic to expect that to happen. We here in Ireland must deal with what is realistically going to happen and act accordingly in our interests.

Where is the leadership though? It is a government's duty and the duty of politicians in general to tell the public when they have messed up. They cannot be led from the bottom up, with the public formulating all policies (if that was the case, you'd probably have mob rule and the reintroduction of the death penalty).

There are plenty of times when the public need to be protected from themselves and their own stupidity. We're now in the bonkers scenario of some politicians claiming the UK electorate voted for No Deal.

Lackadaisical

jm08 wrote: »

This is a bone from the EU to Trump who is under fierce pressure from US farmers over Chinese tariffs.



This is a very good overview of the EU beef (hormone free) imports and how there has been a dispute with WTO over it.



https://www.fb.org/market-intel/wheres-the-hormone-free-beef

Not to derail the thread but the big issue with that in the EU isn’t simply a trade barrier. It’s about consumer choice and political pressure about food quality. It’s a pretty clear demonstration of powerful corporate lobbies in the US and a public that have totally different priorities vs powerful democratic consumer lobbies in the EU. There’s simply no political will to do that in the EU because the people don’t want it and express that through how they vote and also how they protest and lobby.

If the EU were to just cave into the US industry lobby they’d be seen as nothing but corporate shills and if anything, it's stuff like this that proves the European institutions very definitely have a mandate from the electorates of Europe.

You’ve also a totally different view of farming seen as a part of culture in much of Europe vs farming purely an industry in the US.

Guns and God may trigger Americans but food standards tend to trigger Europeans.

It’s also why I think the British will struggle to swallow American food standards - they’re more European in attitudes than the Brexiteers care to admit. Food quality and animal welfare are huge issues in reality in the UK.

Sam Russell

Lackadaisical wrote: »

You’ve also a totally different view of farming seen as a part of culture in much of Europe vs farming purely an industry in the US.

Guns and God may trigger Americans but food standards tend to trigger Europeans.

It’s also why I think the British will struggle to swallow American food standards - they’re more European in attitudes than the Brexiteers care to admit. Food quality and animal welfare are huge issues in reality in the UK.

Look back at the founding ideas of the EEC, EC and EU. The basic philosophy was not trade, or growth or any economic benefit. The drive that created the EEC was to prevent war, and to prevent hunger and secure food supply. That is why 'ever closer union' is written into the treaties from the beginning. Just look at archive photos of roads filled with starving refugees pushing their few belongings in prams and carts on the march from one part of Europe to another to find safety, food and shelter in the aftermath of WW II. No-one could be unmoved by those scenes.

When Brexiteers invoke WW II, they think of plucky British soldiers and victory, not mass starvation, destruction and death. Mainland Europe has not forgotten - just look at the well kept war cemeteries.

It is this that the Brexiteers do not get. It is not trade, it is peace.

Rjd2

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1157395907207450625

The UK is going to going to get absolutely rode in this US deal. If it even happens.

Hold up.....something not right here...

You mean to tell me Trump a protectionist and whose mantra is "America first" is going to squeeze the hell out of the UK?

An Claidheamh

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I can’t get over this tweet.
It should be shown to every DUP member and hardcore loyalist. This is what they think of you. They don’t care about you or the peace in the north at all.
When bombs start going off in Belfast and London, brexit fanatics like this guy should be held directly accountable.

It is truly a cult fanaticism at this stage

To be fair, he's a nobody, few followers, he may not even exist.

However, Brexit has showed and given a platform to so many xenophobes in the British ruling class - who with their adoration of their empire is probably not surprising.

Most of these Tories just repeat what they're told to, they have no idea what the GFA is, only that they were against it.

There is a whiff of desperation about their obstructionist strategy.

steddyeddy

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I can’t get over this tweet.
It should be shown to every DUP member and hardcore loyalist. This is what they think of you. They don’t care about you or the peace in the north at all.
When bombs start going off in Belfast and London, brexit fanatics like this guy should be held directly accountable.

It is truly a cult fanaticism at this stage

Don't forget the DUP didn't initially sign up to the GFA. They're supporters usually aren't much better.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

Look back at the founding ideas of the EEC, EC and EU. The basic philosophy was not trade, or growth or any economic benefit. The drive that created the EEC was to prevent war, and to prevent hunger and secure food supply. That is why 'ever closer union' is written into the treaties from the beginning. Just look at archive photos of roads filled with starving refugees pushing their few belongings in prams and carts on the march from one part of Europe to another to find safety, food and shelter in the aftermath of WW II. No-one could be unmoved by those scenes.

When Brexiteers invoke WW II, they think of plucky British soldiers and victory, not mass starvation, destruction and death. Mainland Europe has not forgotten - just look at the well kept war cemeteries.

It is this that the Brexiteers do not get. It is not trade, it is peace.

Frans Timmermans made this point on BBC's Panorama. The Brexiteers thought they could negotiate with the EU on the basis of trade and balancing the books, as if money and economics would be the sole priority for the EU in such a negotiation. No understanding at all that there might be political, cultural and societal elements to the negotiations.

Tell me how

This is actually real life.

01:30 for key part.

https://twitter.com/Kishan_Devani/status/1157624280273903618?s=19

I'm repeating myself now but this level of division and self-serving behavior was enough to start wars in the past. Thankfully we're beyond that in today's society but only just.

Igotadose

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm repeating myself now but this level of division and self-serving behavior was enough to start wars in the past. Thankfully we're beyond that in today's society but only just.

Are we beyond it? I wonder. Anyway, the worst I think was she could hardly keep from laughing. Doesn't take it seriously at all. Discouraging to say the least. At least JRM sounds like the talking cat from Sabrina the Teenage Witch who was always trying to sound serious.

ArmaniJeanss

Limpy wrote: »

50% voted for brexit party's. Will they make a pact? One wonders

I've been putting some thought (too much for a bh weekend) into the idea of a BXP/Tory pact.
Big problem I see is as follows.

I don't think it'll ever be consider acceptable for the Conservatives not to have a candidate in a constituency in a general election


Even in constituencies where they can't win they would expect to run a candidate for the 20% of people who represent their core vote. Often these campaigns are where they blood future MPs, i.e., you fight a losing campaign in some working class Merseyside constituency, do it well and next time you might be in line for a safe seat.

Even if they stood aside for BXP in some of these constituencies in urban northern/northeast areas, the Labour vote is still so traditionally solid that they may win regardless, albeit with reduced majorities.
The idea of the Conservatives standing aside in more southern areas seems even more implausible- this is their heartland really.

So I don't really see how a pact could work. Or at a specific level what sort of constituency it would apply to.

firemansam4

Joe_ Public wrote:

Sorry to go back a bit, but i think in answer to your question, the remain vote remains vibrant but has had the wind taken out of its sails a bit by the recent concentration on the tory leadership contest and all the brouhaha over the border. I am certain it is there, just lying a bit dormant at the moment, for one reason or another. Dont forget the 1m who marched to parliament square last march or the many more millions who signed the petition. They haven't gone away, you know :-)

I've no doubt that there is a hard core of remain voters out there, but the Brexit crowd just seem more noisy and motivated.
I was over in England with relatives a few weeks and listening to conversations between their friends I noticed that the outrage of people who voted for Brexit shone through, while anyone who may have voted remain didn't say much at all on the matter.

I just have a feeling that if there was a second referendum a much higher percentage of people who want Brexit will turn out and vote compared to remainers. I really hope I am wrong on that, but it just seems that way to me.

Kermit.de.frog

Interesting contrast between Varadkar marching in public in Belfast today and the reception and Boris Johnson when he visited this week.

The latter literally flew in, had dinner with the DUP, and left. No public engagements at all.

road_high

Sam Russell wrote: »

Look back at the founding ideas of the EEC, EC and EU. The basic philosophy was not trade, or growth or any economic benefit. The drive that created the EEC was to prevent war, and to prevent hunger and secure food supply. That is why 'ever closer union' is written into the treaties from the beginning. Just look at archive photos of roads filled with starving refugees pushing their few belongings in prams and carts on the march from one part of Europe to another to find safety, food and shelter in the aftermath of WW II. No-one could be unmoved by those scenes.

When Brexiteers invoke WW II, they think of plucky British soldiers and victory, not mass starvation, destruction and death. Mainland Europe has not forgotten - just look at the well kept war cemeteries.

It is this that the Brexiteers do not get. It is not trade, it is peace.

They always had a bee in their bonnets that they weren’t a founding member and bit players compared to France and Germany- “we can’t own the house so we’ll try destroy it instead”- that’s the Brexit mentality

joeysoap

I agree, lot of previous retainers are now saying ‘ just get on with it’ . Younger people in the main are not really that involved. And Corby didn’t show leadership when it was needed. Young people do look for leadership. Far too late now, best we can hope for is a managed Brexit. Truth is Corbin wants Brexit anyway, anything else is being forced on him .

Joe_ Public

road_high wrote: »

They always had a bee in their bonnets that they weren’t a founding member and bit players compared to France and Germany- “we can’t own the house so we’ll try destroy it instead”- that’s the Brexit mentality

But that was a choice they made, though, wasn't it? It wasn't that they were forced to stand on the margins while the continental powers proceeded surreptitiously without them, anymore than they are now facing entrapment through the cruel and undemocratic backstop. Churchill never seemed to make his mind up as to whether Britain would be a full, participating entity or remain sort of half in, like a benevolent overseer. That ambiguity has always been its default position, it seems.

road_high

They’re obsessed with other countries leaving and destroying the EU. Anyone I ever meet from the Continent doesn’t even comprehend such a ridiculous notion

road_high

Joe_ Public wrote: »

But that was a choice they made, though, wasn't it? It wasn't that they were forced to stand on the margins while the continental powers proceeded surreptitiously without them, anymore than they are now facing entrapment through the cruel and undemocratic backstop. Churchill never seemed to make his mind up as to whether Britain would be a full, participating entity or remain sort of half in, like a benevolent overseer. That ambiguity has always been its default position, it seems.

It was a choice they made alright because they’re so insular and wrapped up in the Union flag they could’ve see the benefits until much later. It does gaul them it’s been a success in spite of them and the Germans are the lead country despite both world wars where GB see themselves as nothing but the goodies in it all.

road_high

lawred2 wrote: »

Do the DUP care about peace? They stood against the GFA. Their words and actions in general aren't those of a peace loving party. They stand for Brexit against the wishes of NI as a whole.

I don't think British army regiments on the streets of NI would upset them too much. Given that they see them as being on 'their' side after all.

Nothing would make them happier to see “their” army back on the Queens highways

Stop moaning ffs

steddyeddy wrote: »

Don't forget the DUP didn't initially sign up to the GFA. They're supporters usually aren't much better.

There’s a thread on a United ireland in the current affairs forum. Clearly infected by bots but the real posters from the unionist side are even worse.

Don’t look for it unless you have eye and mind bleach.

Lackadaisical

Strazdas wrote: »

Frans Timmermans made this point on BBC's Panorama. The Brexiteers thought they could negotiate with the EU on the basis of trade and balancing the books, as if money and economics would be the sole priority for the EU in such a negotiation. No understanding at all that there might be political, cultural and societal elements to the negotiations.

That's also the absolute crux of the British problem with their EU relationship. They have never really seem to have seen it as anything other than "the common market", certainly not the right leaning Tory element of British politics and media anyway.

Ireland's relationship with the EU has largely been one of being treated with respect, dignaty and an equal partner for the first time in centuries. For Ireland the EU has been something that's been extremely empowering and has been about both exerting our independence and being accepted on the world stage with a great degree of solidarity from other members of the EU.

Also, we stand in the EU as a modern country and without all baggage of British inspired tabloid paddywhackery and jingoism. That stuff tends not to cross the channel. How we're viewed from the continent is very different to how we're seen from Britain or even from the US.

Basically what we like about the EU are the very things that are alien to those passionately supporting Brexit.

Joe_ Public

firemansam4 wrote: »

I've no doubt that there is a hard core of remain voters out there, but the Brexit crowd just seem more noisy and motivated.
I was over in England with relatives a few weeks and listening to conversations between their friends I noticed that the outrage of people who voted for Brexit shone through, while anyone who may have voted remain didn't say much at all on the matter.

I just have a feeling that if there was a second referendum a much higher percentage of people who want Brexit will turn out and vote compared to remainers. I really hope I am wrong on that, but it just seems that way to me.

You could be right. The polls dont offer much clarity on it, the latest i've seen is 52-48 in favour of Remain, a swing which might be explained by the trend of older, more leave orientated voters dying and younger, likely remainers coming into voting age. It would be another close call, depending on what exactly was on the ballot sheet. But you're right about the brexiteers making noise, its what they are good at and they have the benefit too, i think, of a majority of the mainstream media. Not to underestimate the value of social media to them which, in my view, unfairly rewards the crude repetition of bluster and outright lying.

As the clock winds down, though, and the spectre of a no deal exit - which commands no majority - grows larger, i believe the remain side will be mobilised like never before. Thats what happened in march and come september, october i think we'll see it rise from its slumber. As to what it can achieve, well remains to be seen i suppose.

road_high

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You could be right. The polls dont offer much clarity on it, the latest i've seen is 52-48 in favour of Remain, a swing which might be explained by the trend of older, more leave orientated voters dying and younger, likely remainers coming into voting age. It would be another close call, depending on what exactly was on the ballot sheet. But you're right about the brexiteers making noise, its what they are good at and they have the benefit too, i think, of a majority of the mainstream media. Not to underestimate the value of social media to them which, in my view, unfairly rewards the crude repetition of bluster and outright lying.

As the clock winds down, though, and the spectre of a no deal exit - which commands no majority - grows larger, i believe the remain side will be mobilised like never before. Thats what happened in march and come september, october i think we'll see it rise from its slumber. As to what it can achieve, well remains to be seen i suppose.

Seems to be this thing alright where they get cold feet close and closer to each exit date. It’s like as if brexit is utopia in theory but the reality a lot less appealing

briany

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You could be right. The polls dont offer much clarity on it, the latest i've seen is 52-48 in favour of Remain, a swing which might be explained by the trend of older, more leave orientated voters dying and younger, likely remainers coming into voting age. It would be another close call, depending on what exactly was on the ballot sheet. But you're right about the brexiteers making noise, its what they are good at and they have the benefit too, i think, of a majority of the mainstream media. Not to underestimate the value of social media to them which, in my view, unfairly rewards the crude repetition of bluster and outright lying.

As the clock winds down, though, and the spectre of a no deal exit - which commands no majority - grows larger, i believe the remain side will be mobilised like never before. Thats what happened in march and come september, october i think we'll see it rise from its slumber. As to what it can achieve, well remains to be seen i suppose.

It's the great fallacy of Brexit to say that Remain have no voice in how Brexit should be shaped. If anyone thinks that Brexiteers wouldn't be campaigning for another referendum in the scenario of 52-48 for Remain, well that's a shaky supposition, given what Farage had said about that in May 2016, but if anyone thinks that Leave wouldn't have, at the very least, been looking at 52-48 for Remain as a massive mandate to keep an arms-length relationship to the EU, then they're either lying or a fool.

52-48 for Leave is saying 'We want to leave, but we want to keep close ties'. You can paint it any other way you want, but undertaking any other course completely obliterates your electoral chances with around half the UK electorate. OK, in fairness, leaving but maintaining close ties is going to hurt, too, but this is the no-win game the UK is playing. I would say, though, that in the latter case, if you could sell the benefits of a leave-but-stay-close deal to either side of the electorate, you could salve the worst of the outrage.

Strazdas

Lackadaisical wrote: »

That's also the absolute crux of the British problem with their EU relationship. They have never really seem to have seen it as anything other than "the common market", certainly not the right leaning Tory element of British politics and media anyway.

Ireland's relationship with the EU has largely been one of being treated with respect, dignaty and an equal partner for the first time in centuries. For Ireland the EU has been something that's been extremely empowering and has been about both exerting our independence and being accepted on the world stage with a great degree of solidarity from other members of the EU.

Also, we stand in the EU as a modern country and without all baggage of British inspired tabloid paddywhackery and jingoism. That stuff tends not to cross the channel. How we're viewed from the continent is very different to how we're seen from Britain or even from the US.

Basically what we like about the EU are the very things that are alien to those passionately supporting Brexit.

The funny thing is that they see all the good stuff with the EU like workers rights, EU citizenship, environmental laws, freedom of movement, open borders, Erasmus etc as a major nuisance and a hindrance and a big negative. They just want it to be about trade and money.

They're a very strange crowd.....stuck in a bygone era (the 1950s or something).

briany

Strazdas wrote: »

The funny thing is that they see all the good stuff with the EU like workers rights, EU citizenship, environmental laws, freedom of movement, open borders, Erasmus etc as a major nuisance and a hindrance and a big negative. They just want it to be about trade and money.

They're a very strange crowd.....stuck in a bygone era (the 1950s or something).

It's the mindset of the true-blue Brexiteer that they would accept a crappy law from London over a good one from Brussels any day.

20silkcut

road_high wrote: »

Seems to be this thing alright where they get cold feet close and closer to each exit date. It’s like as if brexit is utopia in theory but the reality a lot less appealing

In fairness is there anything stopping them from leaving immediately bar themselves??? They could leave tomorrow if they really really wanted to?
There are not exactly mass protests on the street demanding brexit.
Boris et al know that the masses in favour of Brexit now could disappear like a fart in the wind if things go south post hard Brexit. He needs a deal. He needs a ladder to climb down hence the pressure on us.
You can’t depend on the public. Especially a fickle rabble roused public like in Britain at the moment.

They will be tomorrow’s angry mob protesting any hardship caused by brexit.

In 2008 we were the most anti European country in the EU in terms of official vote. 12 months later we were back in love again as if nothing happened.
There is nothing as fickle as the electorate and that is even more the case when it comes to the EU.
It’s either a protest vote or vote for a candidate who has a nice smile like Brian Crowley.
Same in Britain most of them didn’t even realize they could vote for MEPs until this year.

First Up

road_high wrote:

It was a choice they made alright because they’re so insular and wrapped up in the Union flag they could’ve see the benefits until much later. It does gaul them it’s been a success in spite of them and the Germans are the lead country despite both world wars where GB see themselves as nothing but the goodies in it all.

I think it was even more parochial than that. The first post war step was the European Coal and Steel Union - a German/French initiative to take the means of military production out of the hands of individual countries.

The UK refused to join because the then Minister in charge represented the coal mining constituency of Durham and feared the unions would object.

That left them out of the process that led to creating the EEC and they watched from the outside as the whole European movement gained strength. They have never quite gotten over that it succeeded without them.