Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Nody

Leroy42 wrote: »

Brickster69, what is the alternative to a backstop? Lets us imagine for a moment that the EU conceeds to UK demands and removes it to reopen talks.

What is the UK plan? They (UK) cannot continue to adhere to current regulations as this would negate the ability to do other trade deals. They cannot leave an open border as his would remove any incentive for other countries to look for tariff or access agreements as part of future trade deals.

So what are the UK planning on doing to resolve their own problem. Forget about the EU issues, which the Brexit side have used to conveniently avoid having to actually discuss the real issues.

Its either a backstop, a border or continuing to accept EU regulations.

1) Leave EU
2) ... (Unicorns!)
3) Profit!

That's summarize the UK plans atm. Fun fact as of about a year ago there are ZERO countries in the WTO that trade only on WTO terms but UK thinks those terms are so great that they are going to show the rest of the world how wonderful that idea is.

FrancieBrady

lawred2 wrote: »

not too many other nations self destructing like the UK is either mate so...

Exactly. Brexit is but a symptom of a wider crisis in the UK, that they are not even beginning to address.

Leroy42

brickster69 wrote: »

EU's weakness is it thinks it is stronger than it is.

The EU knows how strong it is in relative terms to the UK. The weakness has been entirely on the UK in that respect. They completely overestimated their power. They didn't even have a plan when they triggered Art 50. Where do you really think the weakness lies?

brickster69 wrote: »

They thought that the UK would accept a Treaty no other nation on Earth would accept. Now they will have to accept the worst case scenario. Soon Europe's businesses will start to ask WTF is going on ?

You must not have been around for the last couple of years. To summarise it, TM and the UK government have been in negotiations for the last 2 years with the UK, during which time a deal was made between both sides. The representative of the EU as selected by the 27 heads of state and the duly elected PM of the UK and backed by HMG. So the EU simply negotiated a deal with the correct representatives of the UK and having made an agreement were of the understanding that the PM had the backing of the HoC, as the position infers.

brickster69 wrote: »

"sign this agreement, we will not change it and it is the best we will offer or else we will go into recession, our banks could fail and make 1.5 million EU citizens unemployed. Oh and we don't need your military we will make our new army. Finally we will have a border on Ireland, how do you like that ? "

What part of the agreement is unfair or unrealistic? Citizens rights is a no brainer, and even Johnson agrees with that. The payment for monies owed is surely not something that a nation should as the UK is really arguing is doesn't need to pay simply because it doesn't want to.

The backstop is a UK demand, a potential solution to the contrary position of agreeing to abide by the GFA and ensure no border in NI, whilst simultaneously wanting to erect borders and diverge from EU regulations. We are all still waiting for this amazing idea that can remove the need for the backstop.

It appears to me that the reason the WA is not acceptable is that everyone can clearly see that it is a worse position than the UK currently has, which of course begs the questions as to the entire point of Brexit.

But rather than debate that, the ERG etc doubled down and said that rather than a best case scenario they will have a tantrum and storm out.

brickster69

declanflynn wrote: »

The backstop was the uks idea mate!

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

BonnieSituation

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

You hear about it all the time. We repeat it incessantly.

What exactly is your point in all of your ramblings? Is it that Ireland should roll over and have its tummy tickled?

Leroy42

So what is the alternative to a backstop?

The UK agreed to it as it was the best solution to the problem the UK had created.

They now don't like it. So what is the alternative? I have yet to hear one and Johnson certainly hasn't proposed one.

prawnsambo

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

Pure spin. The UK's position was weakened by the GE that May called and lost her majority. The DUP then demanded that there be no divergence and TM proposed the all UK backstop.

Russman

Leroy42 wrote: »

It appears to me that the reason the WA is not acceptable is that everyone can clearly see that it is a worse position than the UK currently has, which of course begs the questions as to the entire point of Brexit.

This, I think, is essentially the entire fiasco in a nutshell. No matter what arrangement is arrived at, backstop or no backstop, divorce bill or not, it will be demonstrably worse for the UK outside the EU than as a member.

According to the UN, there are 36 developed countries in the world. Excluding the UK, that leaves 35, of which there's the EU27 that the UK wants to walk away from, plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland who are almost members. After that they're left with the US who'll treat them very harshly in trade negotiations, and Canada, Australia, New Zealand & Japan, none of whom have indicated any willingness to choose the UK over their existing or potential trade arrangements with the EU.

There is literally no upside to Brexit.

brickster69

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the alternative to a backstop?

The UK agreed to it as it was the best solution to the problem the UK had created.

They now don't like it. So what is the alternative? I have yet to hear one and Johnson certainly hasn't proposed one.

Seen as Junker, Varadkar and Johnson have all said there will be no checks at the border. There will either be no checks or checks will be carried out away from the border.

You would think the EU / IRE need to decide which one and then come up with something. UK has said checks will be away from the border.

prawnsambo

brickster69 wrote: »

Seen as Junker, Varadkar and Johnson have all said there will be no checks at the border. There will either be no checks or checks will be carried out away from the border.

You would think the EU / IRE need to decide which one and then come up with something. UK has said checks will be away from the border.

In other words a backstop in the Irish Sea. You seem to be incapable of joining the dots.

briany

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the alternative to a backstop?

The UK agreed to it as it was the best solution to the problem the UK had created.

They now don't like it. So what is the alternative? I have yet to hear one and Johnson certainly hasn't proposed one.

There's no official alternative. The British line appears to be that perfectly sensible alternatives exist, but it's up to the EU to get off this backstop kick before they can even be discussed.

---

I found Fintan O' Toole's idea interesting when he suggested that Sinn Fein MPs could do a deal with the Alliance party whereby the SF MPs stand down from their seats and those constituencies would vote in Alliance candidates on a tactical basis. These MPs would then go to Westminster and nullify the DUP. Afterward, they would in turn stand down and allow the Sinn Fein MPs to be voted back in.

The above is certainly not a realistic scenario, but as this crisis escalates, something outside the box does need to happen.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

---

I found Fintan O' Toole's idea interesting when he suggested that Sinn Fein MPs could do a deal with the Alliance party whereby the SF MPs stand down from their seats and those constituencies would vote in Alliance candidates on a tactical basis. These MPs would then go to Westminster and nullify the DUP. Afterward, they would in turn stand down and allow the Sinn Fein MPs to be voted back in.

The above is certainly not a realistic scenario, but as this crisis escalates, something outside the box does need to happen.

To be perfectly honest after listening to Gregory Campbell on Sean O'Rourke the only thing that needs to happen now, or the only realistic thing that is going to fix the problem, is let them go.
A world of pain awaits, but I don't see an alternative anymore.

lufties

Russman wrote: »

This, I think, is essentially the entire fiasco in a nutshell. No matter what arrangement is arrived at, backstop or no backstop, divorce bill or not, it will be demonstrably worse for the UK outside the EU than as a member.

According to the UN, there are 36 developed countries in the world. Excluding the UK, that leaves 35, of which there's the EU27 that the UK wants to walk away from, plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland who are almost members. After that they're left with the US who'll treat them very harshly in trade negotiations, and Canada, Australia, New Zealand & Japan, none of whom have indicated any willingness to choose the UK over their existing or potential trade arrangements with the EU.

There is literally no upside to Brexit.

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Leroy42

brickster69 wrote: »

Seen as Junker, Varadkar and Johnson have all said there will be no checks at the border. There will either be no checks or checks will be carried out away from the border.

You would think the EU / IRE need to decide which one and then come up with something. UK has said checks will be away from the border.

So you have no alternative then?

Why are you blaming the EU when it was the UK that created this, triggered A50?

3 years after the vote and there is no alternative just silly blame games.

From the very outset the EU stated that they were open to alternatives. The UK failed to come up with any workable alternatives. So the EU, with the A50 time period fast approaching and TM telling everyone that no extension would be sought, had to accept that the backstop was all there was and so took TM position on it.

But the UK threw out TM and now want an alternative. But the alternative is still open to them once the WA is agreed. That is another point entirely disregarded. He backstop is, and always was, "unless and until".

Once the UK sorts itself out it can sort out an alternative and bingo. But the likes of you would much rather blame the EU for the failure rather than look at the realities that face you.

Which of the following is the least worst:

Border
Backstop,
Remain.

It really is not that difficult and no about of blame, stomping of feet or whatever is going to change the reality. Instead of blaming the EU you should be asking why Johnson, one of the leaders of the Brexit movement, has come to the PM position without no plan whatsoever.

upupup

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Nonsense.

FrancieBrady

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

But the fact is, it isn't just Leo that is leading here.

Water John

If one listened to Gregory Campbell, honestly you'd want to leave the planet.

UK - 'diversity of thought' that's a good one.
Germans rifling the bins? Have a good look at the UK .
EU 'marxist ideology' what a laugh.

Leroy42

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Which laws are holding the UK back?

All the good things in the UK you speak of,despite them being under the yoke of the EU? How did that happen?

The rest of you post is irrational, lazy racially driven nonsense. Have you been in the Bogside? Parts of Glasgow? Both parts of the UK yet almost destitute in parts. Does that mean the UK is a 3rd world country?

careless sherpa

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Basically everything in this post is wrong. I have crossed that border and is far from some seamless journey. If such a thing was implemented here it would lead to civil strife or worse

Water John

I think 9 of the 10 poorest regions of the EU are in the UK.

ancapailldorcha

Water John wrote: »

I think 9 of the 10 poorest regions of the EU are in the UK.

Northern Europe, not Europe as a whole:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-uk-has-9-out-of-the-10-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe/06/06/

Kermit.de.frog

There was no backstop initially. It was just a permanent customs in Irish sea.

I think we are going back to that.

No other way forward.

lawred2

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

Who do you refer to? And what evidence do you have of such marxist ideology?

lufties wrote: »

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

Yes this happens - salaries vary between countries. What's that supposed to be evidence of exactly?

lufties wrote: »

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

?

lufties wrote: »

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

There are a whopping 7 border crossings between Estonia and Russia.

Can you go into detail as to what aspects of the border are flourishing?

Russman

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

So what laws, policies or borders would you change then ?
Unelected dictators, Marxist ideology, new age communism - seriously ??

You realise that Ireland isn't being used by the EU, Ireland IS the EU ?

lufties

Leroy42 wrote: »

Which laws are holding the UK back?

All the good things in the UK you speak of,despite them being under the yoke of the EU? How did that happen?

The rest of you post is irrational, lazy racially driven nonsense. Have you been in the Bogside? Parts of Glasgow? Both parts of the UK yet almost destitute in parts. Does that mean the UK is a 3rd world country?

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

ancapailldorcha

lufties wrote: »

Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

This sort of posting is not acceptable here. No more please.

KildareP

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

An abomination the UK nonetheless wants to keep all the upsides and benefits of, just without any of the downsides or contributions.

lufties

Russman wrote: »

So what laws, policies or borders would you change then ?
Unelected dictators, Marxist ideology, new age communism - seriously ??

You realise that Ireland isn't being used by the EU, Ireland IS the EU ?

Yes marxist ideology. Look up how they worshipped karl Marx last year in Brussels parliament. Also look up Marxism and the Frankfurt school. Educate yourself Ffs, and stop being such a sheep.

Ireland is being used by the EU dictats in Brussels. But shur arrah arent big Phil et all fighting our cause, lol.

robinph

lufties wrote: »

I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange.

If I saw colleagues throwing plastic bottles in the general waste and there was a deposit scheme running on them where all it took for sending them to recycling rather than landfill was me digging them out of the bin and adding them to my pile of things I was taking to claim a deposit back on, then I'd do the same regardless of if I needed those extra few cents to buy a tin of beans or not.

Just because someone chooses to recycle their plastic and claim a deposit back doesn't mean they are on the breadline, maybe they just care about things being recycled.

lufties

KildareP wrote: »

An abomination the UK nonetheless wants to keep all the upsides and benefits of, just without any of the downsides or contributions.

Enlighten me on what you refer to exactly