Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

And comments such as:

Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

People are on the bread line there.

However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain

aren't 'emotive'? :D

brickster69

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

I know it is not a big one but it actually says that if a MEP is found guilty of a crime he cannot be convicted in the UK.

Work that one out.

Nody

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity.

Specify; all you've done is list areas. What exactly are wrong with the trade policies, fisheries etc.?

What started as a trading block is now an abomination.

It was always more than a trading block from it's inception; that you missed that only shows your lack of knowledge.

What part exactly of what I said is nonsense?

You mean the beyond only making emotional non fact based statement without any proof or links to back them up? You know; basic requirements such as actually backing up your stated "facts" with actual factual links as required in a debate even though Brexiteers are notoriously bad at it.

What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.

If you said UK it would be true; UK media has a very long and well documented list of blatant lies including your current PM admitting that he made **** up to get people outraged at EU.

lufties

robinph wrote: »

If I saw colleagues throwing plastic bottles in the general waste and there was a deposit scheme running on them where all it took for sending them to recycling rather than landfill was me digging them out of the bin and adding them to my pile of things I was taking to claim a deposit back on, then I'd do the same regardless of if I needed those extra few cents to buy a tin of beans or not.

Just because someone chooses to recycle their plastic and claim a deposit back doesn't mean they are on the breadline, maybe they just care about things being recycled.

Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

lufties

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And comments such as:








aren't 'emotive'? :D

No, they are factual comments for people with an ounce of insight and logical thinking.

Seth Brundle

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

I don't believe that is correct.
The GFA requires that the people and trade in NI can continue to flow as it does now and that there are no restrictions.
Having NI remain within both the CU and SM means that it can continue on this road.

However, this meant that NI would be different to Britain which the DUP (who oppose the peace and equality measures within the GFA) were not happy with NI having different (albeit better) trading arrangements to Britain so May sought a whole UK customs union.

Chips Lovell

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DOCARCH

Water John wrote: »

I think 9 of the 10 poorest regions of the EU are in the UK.

This is the nub of the Brexit issue and working class support/vote for Brexit.

They believe it's the fault of the EU (and nothing to do with the London/SE centric UK government and decades of neglect).

Leroy42

A fisheries policy that allows the UK sell the majority of its catch to the EU without tariff? Is that what you have an issue with?

It perhaps that UK licence holders sold off there access for money to other EU countries. Not forced to. Simply for profit.

But I am sure you have a list of laws that will make things better.

What will you be able to do better on 1st November? And before you trot out Trade agreements you first need to show how the current trade agreements has been negative to the UK.

Can't recall where I read it but it made a lot of sense. The UK has mistaken London, one of the great cities of the world, for the entire UK. There seems to be this belief that everywhere will be like London and since it isn't it must be the fault of the EU.

But none of it is true. The reason for London dominance is many fold, and partly due to history. But the problems in other areas across the country land squarely at the foot of UK governments. Yet they, mostly Tory but also Labour, gave managed to convince many that it is someone else's fault.

briany

Seth Brundle wrote: »

However, this meant that NI would be different to Britain which the DUP (who oppose the peace and equality measures within the GFA) were not happy with NI having different (albeit better) trading arrangements to Britain so May sought a whole UK customs union.

In essence what May did was attempt to placate a minority of NI Unionists by p*ssing off a much larger swathe of people.

I'm not sure what has gone better so far - the Conservatives' approach to Brexit or Homer Simpson's solutions to being stuck in quicksand.

lufties

Nody wrote: »

Specify; all you've done is list areas. What exactly are wrong with the trade policies, fisheries etc.?

It was always more than a trading block from it's inception; that you missed that only shows your lack of knowledge.

You mean the beyond only making emotional non fact based statement without any proof or links to back them up? You know; basic requirements such as actually backing up your stated "facts" with actual factual links as required in a debate even though Brexiteers are notoriously bad at it.

If you said UK it would be true; UK media has a very long and well documented list of blatant lies including your current PM admitting that he made **** up to get people outraged at EU.

Having control of your own trade policies. Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love). A system based on merit. Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled). Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.

The UK media loves the EU, what are you on about? Aswell as RTE, and the rest of the biased media.

Brexit all the way.

brickster69

The EU and its employees are immune to UK tax laws, that’s article 104

VinLieger

lufties wrote: »

Having control of your own trade policies. Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love). A system based on merit. Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled). Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.

The UK media loves the EU, what are you on about? Aswell as RTE, and the rest of the biased media.

Brexit all the way.

Immigration policies ehh? You mean the ones the UK had control over but chose not to enforce?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

Also they had control over the own trade policies by virtue of the fact any one nation can completely veto or stall a trade policy if they have a problem with it while its being negotiated.

Are you aware of how trade negotiations even work?

I really enjoy posting this video so ill just do it again to try to help you understand why 60 million from the UK wont make for better trade traties than 500 million in the EU

seraphimvc

lufties wrote: »

Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

Solely on that 'recycling practice' you mentioned there: I am not entirely sure about how the regulations work in Cologne but in Berlin region, they have this great incentive for the people to recycle their plastic/glass bottles hence the city is so clean and it is a great habit to have. I have no doubts on many germans would have the same habit around the country - heck, my good german friend is obsessed with this sort of stuffs lol (a bit annoying when we travel with him but hell that is a great habit i must say).

great incentive ie you can get back 8-25 cents per bottle when you bring it to those supermarket

Leroy42

You do control your own trade policies. The UK have a very strong voice in the EU. Since they agreed to the multiple trade deals one must assume they agreed to them. The PMs voted for democratically.

But ok, what parts of those trade deals would you change?

Immigration is in the hands of the UK. For you know about Belgium EU policy?

And that only deals with EU countries. The rest of the world is even more controlled. Yet TM stood atop the wind gate Scandal.

Fisheries. What would you change? You got access to massive continental markets . The UK has recently signed a trade deal with Faroe Islands allowing them access to UK waters. Not exactly a promising start.

UK media? So I take it the Telegraph, Sun, Express etc. are no classified as foreign media or something.

These generalities are great for throwing around in a pub debate, but 3 years after the vote this is all you've got? Nothing of substance or even based on reality.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Do not just paste links here please. This is a discussion forum not a link repository. A post has been deleted.

ambro25

brickster69 wrote: »

The EU and its employees are immune to UK tax laws, that’s article 104

Article 104 of which piece of legislation? (Now I know *exactly* which piece of legislation is relevant for this income tax issue you raised, so fair warning that (i) no, this is not a trap (since you have fair warning) and (ii) no bulls*** answer acceptable).

The EU is an international organisation and its employees pay a Community income tax (progressive, 8% to 45%) and social solidarity contributions ("levy") of 6% to 7%.

Did you know that the UN, NATO, the WTO, as international organisations (of which the UK is *also* a full member), are *also* immune to UK tax laws, as are their employees?

Many more international organisations (of which the UK is *also* a full member) available to list, where these very few notable ones came from.

lufties

seraphimvc wrote: »

Solely on that 'recycling practice' you mentioned there: I am not entirely sure about how the regulations work in Cologne but in Berlin region, they have this great incentive for the people to recycle their plastic/glass bottles hence the city is so clean and it is a great habit to have. I have no doubts on many germans would have the same habit around the country - heck, my good german friend is obsessed with this sort of stuffs lol (a bit annoying when we travel with him but hell that is a great habit i must say).



great incentive ie you can get back 8-25 cents per bottle when you bring it to those supermarket

Recycling personal plastic is different to rummaging through workplace bins furiously every day to make a few cents.

I worked in Germany, taxes are higher than anywhere I've worked. Salaries are lower than anywhere I've worked. Go figure.

gimli2112

DOCARCH wrote: »

This is the nub of the Brexit issue and working class support/vote for Brexit.

They believe it's the fault of the EU (and nothing to do with the London/SE centric UK government and decades of neglect).

The problem is if things get worse after a crash out which let's face it they will, it will be the EU's fault for causing it.

PropJoe10

Dominic Grieve attacking Boris's chief advisor today and threatening a government of national unity involving members of Labour and the Lib Dems in the case of a no-confidence motion succeeding against Johnson. Interesting times ahead for sure.

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-attacks-boris-johnsons-top-adviser-dominic-cummings-over-no-deal-brexit-threat-11778499

VinLieger

lufties wrote: »

I worked in Germany, taxes are higher than anywhere I've worked.

Yes and they receive far higher range and standard of services because of it and thus have to pay out of pocket for less of these services than for example those of us in the UK or Ireland do

lufties wrote: »

Salaries are lower than anywhere I've worked. Go figure.

In your job specifically, across the board this is simply untrue they are around the EU average in net take home pay so this is subjectively a completely incorrect statement

First Up

ThePanjandrum wrote:

So we go on WTO terms, the same way as the USA and China deal with the EU. It's not ideal but if it comes to tariffs then the UK Government will receive a lot more revenue than the EU and can use it to shield its businesses.

I don't know how many more times this has to be explained. The Single Market is NOT JUST ABOUT TARIFFS. It is about allowing fast moving supply chains that build specialisation and reduce costs.

The EU's trade with China and the US is one way - goods arrive in one or the other and are consumed there.

The EU's trade within itself involves goods crossing between member countries for processing, packaging, distribution and eventual consumption across the whole EU market. It is about efficiencies, not customs revenue.

When the UK leaves the Single Market it will exclude itself from both sales opportunities and the cost benefits that accrue from being part of these efficiencies. The damage will be immeasurable.

lufties

Leroy42 wrote: »

You do control your own trade policies. The UK have a very strong voice in the EU. Since they agreed to the multiple trade deals one must assume they agreed to them. The PMs voted for democratically.

But ok, what parts of those trade deals would you change?

Immigration is in the hands of the UK. For you know about Belgium EU policy?

And that only deals with EU countries. The rest of the world is even more controlled. Yet TM stood atop the wind gate Scandal.

Fisheries. What would you change? You got access to massive continental markets . The UK has recently signed a trade deal with Faroe Islands allowing them access to UK waters. Not exactly a promising start.

UK media? So I take it the Telegraph, Sun, Express etc. are no classified as foreign media or something.

These generalities are great for throwing around in a pub debate, but 3 years after the vote this is all you've got? Nothing of substance or even based on reality.

PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.

Immigration? The EU proposed fines for countries not taking their 'fair share' or so called refugees.

EU nation waters are centrally controlled by the EU. Individual nations dont have a say. Hence the influx of Spanish trawlers in Irish waters. I'd give individual control of their surrounding waters.

Not sure about faroe islands, but it's hardly a super power now is it?

UK media foreign? What are you on about? I said the UK, and Irish media are pro EU, bar the telegraph. The red tops are just provocative on both sides. Express is not pro Brexit.

In Ireland, RTE, the times, independent, the journal, examiner, business post, all pro EU publications, (or rags).

seraphimvc

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes and they receive far higher range and standard of services because of it and thus have to pay out of pocket for less of these services than for example those of us in the UK or Ireland do

In your job specifically, across the board this is simply untrue they are around the EU average in net take home pay so this is subjectively a completely incorrect statement

Exactly! Thanks VinLieger, i couldn't say more than what you have said there.

I have done calculations myself for my job, if i were to receive the same salary i have now in Ireland, i will get about 300euro pay cut each month if i were to move to germany - but damn, the (real) social benefits i would receive there will be significantly more than what i get in Ireland.

The point is that there is a trade off for how things done in different countries. What Lufties say thus far seems very superficial and lack of understanding of the rationales behind regulations/systems in different countries.

dresden8

lufties wrote: »

PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.

In which general election was Boris voted PM?

declanflynn

brickster69 wrote: »

declanflynn wrote: »

The backstop was the uks idea mate!

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

The backstop in its present form is the uks idea mate

Seth Brundle

lufties wrote: »

PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.

Varadkar was voted in by the electorate. However, like most parliaments, the Prime Minister is chosen by the governing party.
As for the less than democratic UK, who voted for their head of state? Who voted for the members within the House of Lords?

lufties wrote: »

Immigration? The EU proposed fines for countries not taking their 'fair share' or so called refugees.

So its bog standard xenophobia then?

lufties wrote: »

EU nation waters are centrally controlled by the EU. Individual nations dont have a say. Hence the influx of Spanish trawlers in Irish waters. I'd give individual control of their surrounding waters.

...so there are no rules whatsoever about fishing in local waters and no arrests for any illegal fishing?
I must have misread the news over the years.

lufties wrote: »

Not sure about faroe islands, but it's hardly a super power now is it?

...and yet the Faroese walked away with a good deal and the UK got the crumbs?
Well done!

Valhallapt

Great thread, but one or two posters are relentlessly trolling, the thread would be better server if they were starved of oxygen

fash

lufties wrote: »

Having control of your own trade policies.

When it leaves, the UK's trade policies will be controlled by either the EU or the US. It only had control as a member of the EU.
If Ireland left the EU then either its trade policy would be controlled by the EU - or worse the evil Brits.

Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love).

This is controlled by the states - remember the UK invited in citizens from the +10 EU member states. Which the UK in order to steal healthy young workers from Eastern European countries to serve its own fiendish purposes.

Furthermore now almost all and even in 2016 66% of immigration are those under UK is from outside of the EU - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria etc - and was always entirely within UK control. They like to keep quiet about that however.




Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled).

Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.

That is precisely what happens when you brexit - controlled by Russian propaganda and tax exiles. The UK's trade and laws dictated by the US - or EU.

Imagine if Ireland had not joined and we would have to comply with the British "know your place" and "let's starve the Irish until they comply" statements.

There is power in being in a group.

Brexit all the way.

Assuming you are an Irish nationalist, there is certainly a schadenfreude in seeing the ignominious final collapse of the evil empire. Enjoy your time at laugh at some Brits on our behalf.

robinph

lufties wrote: »

Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

Anyone throwing recyclables into the general trash for landfill is unacceptable, regardless of your level of education. Just because someone is taking stuff to be recycled and claim a deposit doesn't mean they are skint.