Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

lufties

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes and they receive far higher range and standard of services because of it and thus have to pay out of pocket for less of these services than for example those of us in the UK or Ireland do






In your job specifically, across the board this is simply untrue they are around the EU average in net take home pay so this is subjectively a completely incorrect statement

What benefits exactly? Health cover? Yes, up to a point. The same as the NHS in the UK, which is also covered by taxation. Your sound goes further in the UK also.

Average income the same across the EU? Oh so that's why there's no Polish, Lithuanians and Romanians in Ireland. Average salary in Romania is 600 euro, having spent a few months there I can can tell you it's not cheap to live.

In my job, if you survey legacy airlines across several developed EU nations, you'll find that Germany is one of the low payers. It is generally accepted that Germany is a low wage economy.

VinLieger

lufties wrote: »

PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.

You mean like Boris? Also pretty sure the vast vast majority of trade deals the EU has negotiated have been agree on by democratically elected PM's unless you are suggesting Boris and Gordon Brown have been responsible for agreeing to 100% of EU trade agreements on the UK's behalf?

lufties wrote: »

Not sure about faroe islands, but it's hardly a super power now is it?

Its one of these brilliant new brexit trade deals that the UK has given the faroe islands a deal to continue the exact same access to their fisheries for..... objectively nothing.

lufties wrote: »

UK media foreign? What are you on about? I said the UK, and Irish media are pro EU, bar the telegraph. The red tops are just provocative on both sides. Express is not pro Brexit.

Hahahahahaha the "express isn't pro-brexit", best thing ive heard in a while.

lufties wrote: »

In Ireland, RTE, the times, independent, the journal, examiner, business post, all pro EU publications, (or rags).

So what? every poll suggests 90% approval rating of the EU, the majority of our media simply reflects this, not every opinion deserves a 50/50 balance if that's what you are suggesting? Maybe they are pro-europe because irexit is objectively a completely retarded illogical idea?

lufties

dresden8 wrote: »

In which general election was Boris voted PM?

I was agreeing with the previous poster that the British PM was elected the same as the Irish PM. I.E not by the public.

PeadarCo

First Up wrote:

The EU's trade within itself involves goods crossing between member countries for processing, packaging, distribution and eventual consumption across the whole EU market. It is about efficiencies, not customs revenue.

First Up wrote:

I don't know how many more times this has to be explained. The Single Market is NOT JUST ABOUT TARIFFS. It is about allowing fast moving supply chains that build specialisation and reduce costs.

The key to both is regulations. Tarrifs could be reduced to 0 but if regulations are different you still need border controls. Different regulations and certification bodies can hobble trade just as much if not more than Tarrifs.

The whole point of the single market is to align regulations. The UK will presumably diverge from EU regulations in the long term. Anything else defeats the purpose of leaving the EU. If the UK leaves it will leave all the various EU regulatory bodies and have to set up its own versions.

Imreoir2

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

It does not "break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently", there is nothing in the GFA that requires NI to be treated exactly the same as the rest of the UK. The fact is that NI is already treated diferently to the rest of the UK becasue of the GFA. The rest of the UK does not have North/South bodies in opperation, the rest of the UK does not have power-shareing, not to mention the obvious examples of Abortion and and Gay Marriage.

The idea that the backstop causes a problem to the principle of concent is a nonsence. They only thing the principle of concent in the GFA applies to is a border poll. The atempt to apply it to the backstop is nothing more than a baseless Unionist talking point, you wont hear serious commentators talking about it becasue it is rubbish.

lufties

Valhallapt wrote: »

Great thread, but one or two posters are relentlessly trolling, the thread would be better server if they were starved of oxygen

So a troll is someone with a differing opinion. Would you prefer an echo chamber?

briany

gimli2112 wrote: »

The problem is if things get worse after a crash out which let's face it they will, it will be the EU's fault for causing it.

And they would be technically correct. Technically correct in the sense that if you trip over a man-made object, your injuries are the fault of the person who put it there, rather than your own for not looking where you were going or refusing to alter your course.

Nody

lufties wrote: »

Having control of your own trade policies.

You've yet to state what part of the trade policy you wish to change.

Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love).

Always under UK control for non EU immigration and enforceable for EU immigration as well but UK refused to enforce either. That is hardly EU's fault that your politicians are to lazy to do it now is it?

Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled). Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.

You mean like how UK gave up to Fareo Islands on import? Or the simple fact you're not going to be in control after leaving because you'll not be allowed to export any fish to EU (if you don't allow EU to agree the quotas which once again you'd know if you had actually bothered to learn about EU)? But hey; I'm sure your fishermen will be happy that you're back in control when they can't sell any fish they actually catch; that will work out great for them (hint; UK exports over 80% of all fish it catches to EU).

The UK media loves the EU, what are you on about? Aswell as RTE, and the rest of the biased media.

Here's a list of some 700 of the UK media lies over 15 years; feel free to list 10 lies in favour of EU in Irish media.

Brexit all the way.

And I wish you the hardest brexit possible only don't come back here complaining about EU bullying etc. when you can't get radioactive material etc. for hospitals et al.

Seth Brundle

lufties wrote: »

So a troll is someone with a differing opinion. Would you prefer an echo chamber?

Someone who is able to offer a fact based view will be taken seriously whereas someone who posts hyperbole and populist soundbite nonsense won't be taken seriously.
I for one would love to read your views but only if they can be taken seriously. This isn't After Hours after all!

robinph

briany wrote: »

And they would be technically correct. Technically correct in the sense that if you trip over a man-made object, your injuries are the fault of the person who put it there, rather than your own for not looking where you were going or refusing to alter your course.

Not if there was a big sign and barriers around that object saying "don't go here, you'll trip up and hurt yourself". If you insist on pulling down the sign, climbing over the barriers and hurling yourself at the object that that is entirely your own fault.

lufties

VinLieger wrote: »

You mean like Boris? Also pretty sure the vast vast majority of trade deals the EU has negotiated have been agree on by democratically elected PM's unless you are suggesting Boris and Gordon Brown have been responsible for agreeing to 100% of EU trade agreements on the UK's behalf?







Its one of these brilliant new brexit trade deals that the UK has given the faroe islands a deal to continue the exact same access to their fisheries for..... objectively nothing.





Hahahahahaha the "express isn't pro-brexit", best thing ive heard in a while.





So what? every poll suggests 90% approval rating of the EU, the majority of our media simply reflects this, not every opinion deserves a 50/50 balance if that's what you are suggesting? Maybe they are pro-europe because irexit is objectively a completely retarded illogical idea?

Perhaps it's just relentless brainwashing and propaganda by the Irish establishment. What poll was done? Youd think by now you'd learn not to trust polls. EG Trump and Brexit lol.

golfball37

3 years on and it still boils down to resentment in Ireland and the Eu for the UK having the temerity to upset their little world domination project by seeking to go it alone. For it to be this difficult to leave a so called trade organisation should set off alarms, or failing that at the very least sensible debate. The groupthink in Ireland is staggering towards the British people wishing to assert their democratic right to Independence. Leo overplayed his hand here and I wish it would be called out by some at home instead of the cheerleading.

ancapailldorcha

We have a report function. Please do not accuse people of trolling on thread.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

So a troll is someone with a differing opinion. Would you prefer an echo chamber?

Someone who is able to offer a fact based view rather than hyperbole and populist soundbite nonsense won't be taken seriously.
I for one would love to read your views but only if they can be taken seriously. This isn't After Hours after all!

...and straight away you post this...

lufties wrote: »

Perhaps it's just relentless brainwashing and propaganda by the Irish establishment. What poll was done? Youd think by now you'd learn not to trust polls. EG Trump and Brexit lol.

mod: Please provide more substantive posts or I will delete them and possibly threadban you.

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

Edit : the only better Brexit reporter than Faisal Islam is Tony Connelly and its a huge gulf after those two even though Faisal's gone from the Brexit beat to BBC Economics editor (same thing, says you )

PS I like Tom Newton Dunn even though its the Sun . he's not shy

I think Faisal is being lined up to replace Laura Kuennsberg as political editor. At least I hope that is the plan eventually. His reporting is a lot better than hers at present and you would hope there would be more facts and less drama reported on from the BBC while he is there.

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

What don't we hear about? How NI has to be aligned to the UK? Is that why they are only now possibly getting equality with regards to marriage and abortion? Don't hear enough about that one, do we? Is that not treating NI differently to the rest of the UK?

Nody

golfball37 wrote: »

3 years on and it still boils down to resentment in Ireland and the Eu for the UK having the temerity to upset their little world domination project by seeking to go it alone. For it to be this difficult to leave a so called trade organisation should set off alarms, or failing that at the very least sensible debate. The groupthink in Ireland is staggering towards the British people wishing to assert their democratic right to Independence. Leo overplayed his hand here and I wish it would be called out by some at home instead of the cheerleading.

UK could have left the day after handing in the A50 letter and they can leave tomorrow if they so desire; EU are not stopping them. However and this is the part all our lovely Brexiteers keep glossing over is that UK don't want to leave without a deal because of how hard the economical hit will be; that's what the whole point has been of the last 2.5 years after all. So how about you start blaming the relevant parties for a change; UK leaving is UK's decision and the timing of leaving is UK's choice and any consequences of leaving is UK's responsibility inc. any economical hit, civil unrest or violence in NI because it's all based on a UK decision. No one in EU can in any way force UK to stay; that's UK choice to keep extending the talks etc.

Now if you insist a deal is required that's a whole separate ball game and as you want UK to "go it's own way" then you can't blame EU for protecting it's interests doing the same in a deal making now can you?

First Up

PeadarCo wrote:

The whole point of the single market is to align regulations. The UK will presumably diverge from EU regulations in the long term. Anything else defeats the purpose of leaving the EU. If the UK leaves it will leave all the various EU regulatory bodies and have to set up its own versions.

Even before any divergence, once the UK is importing items that do not conform to EU standards, everything will be checked at the frontier of the SM.

Christy42

golfball37 wrote: »

3 years on and it still boils down to resentment in Ireland and the Eu for the UK having the temerity to upset their little world domination project by seeking to go it alone. For it to be this difficult to leave a so called trade organisation should set off alarms, or failing that at the very least sensible debate. The groupthink in Ireland is staggering towards the British people wishing to assert their democratic right to Independence. Leo overplayed his hand here and I wish it would be called out by some at home instead of the cheerleading.

Difficult. The UK has begged to stay in. They could have left in March. That they are still in is their own fault.

You feel like leaving every single trade deal the country has should be easy? They were negotiated to make things better. If you then remove the thing that made your life better it will hurt you. Added to this the UK made promises to a region recently that staying in the UK meant staying in the EU and has a peace treaty that stopped violence in another region be largely dependent on those trade deals continuing. Obviously both of those (note: the EU was involved in neither of those cases and were signed up to by the UK knowing full well what was being promised at the time).

Furthermore a lot of the difficulty is in the UK's lack of preparedness. It had and seems to have no clue on how to operate negotiations. If it thought a sweet deal was waiting in the US it would have left in March. Instead the regime there knows the UK has put itself over a barrel and is more than happy to take advantage e if it can.

brickster69

It just keeps getting better.

City of London has hit record highs in the trading of Chinese currency

Up 45% on last year to £74 Billion / day

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/london-retains-its-rmb-crown-in-face-of-brexit-uncertainty/

Oafley Jones

brickster69 wrote: »

It just keeps getting better.

City of London has hit record highs in the trading of Chinese currency

Up 45% on last year to £74 Billion / day

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/london-retains-its-rmb-crown-in-face-of-brexit-uncertainty/

What do you think that means?

Imreoir2

lufties wrote: »

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

Why didn't you say? A couple of people in Cologne don't like the EU, well that is all the proof we ever needed that you are right and objective reality is wrong /s

ancapailldorcha

Lufties has been banned for being uncivil and ignoring mod warnings.

brickster69

Oafley Jones wrote: »

What do you think that means?

It means that China understands it needs to open up it's markets in financial services not retreat inwards.

jm08

lufties wrote: »

Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

If there was any drop in income, its down to the cost of the reunification of Germany, not the EU.

In the Quality of Life index, Germany is ranked 8th in the world with the United Kingdom coming in at 18th.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

PeadarCo

First Up wrote:

Even before any divergence, once the UK is importing items that do not conform to EU standards, everything will be checked at the frontier of the SM.

Which means companies will still have to adhere to EU regulations for EU exports(and as you say face checks the minute the UK leaves the EU). In addition companies will have to make separate products to adhere to domestic regulations. This on its own increases costs aside from any tarrif costs and the cost and time of customs checks. Focusing on tarrifs ignores the elephant in the room of regulations. One of the reasons the EU has grown the way it has been to manage the creation and updating of regulations without having to reopen every bilateral trade deal every time a change/new regulation is required.

Even the paper work and staffing to manage these different regulations increases the cost of doing business.

Imreoir2

lufties wrote: »

I was agreeing with the previous poster that the British PM was elected the same as the Irish PM. I.E not by the public.

This is not true. The Taoiseach is elected by the Dáil, the elected representatives of the people. The British PM is appointed by the Queen. It is Her Majesty's Government. But sure, the EU is undemocratic.

BobbyBobberson

No Deal seeming more and more likely. I get paid and have savings in Sterling, could be time to move it to euro.

First Up

BobbyBobberson wrote:

No Deal seeming more and more likely. I get paid and have savings in Sterling, could be time to move it to euro.

You are a bit late.

Nody

PeadarCo wrote: »

Which means companies will still have to adhere to EU regulations for EU exports(and as you say face checks the minute the UK leaves the EU). In addition companies will have to make separate products to adhere to domestic regulations. This on its own increases costs aside from any tarrif costs and the cost and time of customs checks. Focusing on tarrifs ignores the elephant in the room of regulations. One of the reasons the EU has grown the way it has been to manage the creation and updating of regulations without having to reopen every bilateral trade deal every time a change/new regulation is required.

Even the paper work and staffing to manage these different regulations increases the cost of doing business.

Stop it, how can you claim that sharing cost by pooling expertise instead of replicating it in every country and hence harmonize business rules and ease trade is a good thing? Clearly being one of 28 with significant input on world standards is giving up sovereignty and not at all how setting global standards work when created.

Oh wait...

trellheim

Unless something calms it down I'd be looking at hedging some of it as there is no calming rhetoric coming out of No 10 or No 11