Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

show me the money.1

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Being serious, I don't think that this will ever stop. Brexit is by its very nature and extremist movement. Such movements require an inexhaustible supply of targets to maintain unity or else they become riven with factionalism.

The only way it will stop is if the UK crash out hard brexit, then when unemployment goes to 20% and there is riots on the streets ports at a stand still and they cannot negotiate decent trade deals without taffifs.

Only then will they realise what a mistake it has been.

lawred2

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Well this is a strange direction for him to take...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/nigel-farage-ridicules-british-royal-family-in-australian-speech-1.3983728

well to be honest I was only waiting for the Royal family to be the next target for the 'unelected undemocratic' demagoguery... by all accounts - there's emanations from the Queen that she's not at all content with the state of Westminster. Maybe this is stage one of reducing her standing.

Professor Moriarty

show me the money.1 wrote: »

The only way it will stop is if the UK crash out hard brexit, then when unemployment goes to 20% and there is riots on the streets ports at a stand still and they cannot negotiate decent trade deals without taffifs.

Only then will they realise what a mistake it has been.

That would be a valuable lesson indeed. And schadefreude, however unseemly, can be pleasant. Unfortunately, Ireland would be collateral damage and that damage would be severe.

ancapailldorcha

show me the money.1 wrote: »

The only way it will stop is if the UK crash out hard brexit, then when unemployment goes to 20% and there is riots on the streets ports at a stand still and they cannot negotiate decent trade deals without taffifs.

Only then will they realise what a mistake it has been.

Unless of course they buy the next batch of spin and jingoism from our media that the EU/Ireland/Judges/people with different opinions sabotaged the sacred Brexit project through upholding the law and thoughtcrime.

People seem to think that a crash out Brexit will jolt people to their senses but I don't think that it will. There has been a concerted and assiduous anti-EU campaign going on here for decades. The damage has been done. The press will serve them up yet another scapegoat and they'll buy it. Why wouldn't they when it's been working so well?

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Well this is a strange direction for him to take...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/nigel-farage-ridicules-british-royal-family-in-australian-speech-1.3983728

"he also described the Queen Mother, who died in 2002, as an “slightly overweight, chain-smoking gin drinker”."

Nigel isn't exactly slim. Nigel is a heavy smoker. Nigel's wife says he drinks too much.

Loafing Oaf

swampgas wrote: »

I didn't mean to give that impression. As it happens I worked for years in England and have a lot of friends there. I was wondering why there seems to be such anger from certain groups though. Farage might be an outlier in many ways but he represents a certain viewpoint. He loathes the existence of the EU. It's not enough to leave it, he wants it destroyed.

Why the rage and the hostility? What threat is the EU to England, except perhaps as a threat to the imagined dominant position of England in Europe? To repeat, this is from a small but influential minority, not from the English in general.

I'm thinking out loud rather than making any strong claims here. One thing that strikes me over and over again is the strength of the emotion that seems to drive many Brexiteers, and it's mostly anger at something - what? - I don't know.

I've always been a bit mystified by the phenomenon of British/English Euroskepticism, which is of course broader and older than Brexit. The driving force behind the same movement in Ireland is the religious right, but that's a marginal force in England.
I don't have the impression that the broad mass of British people are especially racist or xenophobic, but maybe that tendency is deeper than it seems on the surface and was cleverly channeled by the Brexiteers.

Seth Brundle

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There has been a concerted and assiduous anti-EU campaign going on here for decades. The damage has been done. The press will serve them up yet another scapegoat and they'll buy it. Why wouldn't they when it's been working so well?

...Like Richard Madley playing up to his audience?
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1160824995611848704

Seth Brundle

Actually does anyone know if our liquid fuel suppliers have contingency plans in place to source petrol, diesel & kero from the EU if there's a hard Brexit?
Are we likely to see fuel shortages?

WomanSkirtFan8

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Commons has never voted to have a no deal Brexit."
Correct. They voted for brexit not a no-deal Brexit.

BonnieSituation

lawred2 wrote: »

well to be honest I was only waiting for the Royal family to be the next target for the 'unelected undemocratic' demagoguery... by all accounts - there's emanations from the Queen that she's not at all content with the state of Westminster. Maybe this is stage one of reducing her standing.

I don't think he's stupid enough to try reduce her standing.

He seems to be trying to lay the groundwork for delegitimising Charles as monarch.

That's an easier target.

VinLieger

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Actually does anyone know if our liquid fuel suppliers have contingency plans in place to source petrol, diesel & kero from the EU if there's a hard Brexit?
Are we likely to see fuel shortages?

I would hope they have made similar arrangements as the food suppliers to use the new ferry routes

trellheim

oh for fk sake really how stupid do you have to be to stop attending stuff you're entitled to be in and protect your countries' interest

British diplomats will pull out from the EU’s institutional structures of power in Brussels within days, under plans being drawn up by Downing Street.

In an attempt to reinforce the message that the UK is leaving the EU by 31 October, “do or die”, the UK will stop attending the day-to-day meetings that inform the bloc’s decision-making.

The move under discussion is said by UK officials to be in line with Boris Johnson’s first statement in the House of Commons, in which he said he would “unshackle” British diplomacy from EU affairs.

Critics have countered that the symbolic walkout would merely leave the UK blindsided on decisions and ultimately damage the national interest.



EU working group meetings at which British diplomats were expected to take their seats alongside the other 27 member states will deal with issues on security, the pan-European response to any future crises involving civilians, foreign affairs and the protection of consumers interests.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/12/british-diplomats-to-pull-out-from-eu-decision-making-meetings-within-days

FrancieBrady

Can anybody outline the circumstances that have to occur for the monarchy to get involved and to what extent they can?

I have to say there would be no popcorn left in the village if that happened.

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can anybody outline the circumstances that have to occur for the monarchy to get involved and to what extent they can?

I have to say there would be no popcorn left in the village if that happened.

In the case of Johnson loosing a VONC downing street have suggested he would refuse to step down which would cause a constitutional crisis that the Queen would likely have to intervene on as that is the monarchs role.

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

In the case of Johnson loosing a VONC downing street have suggested he would refuse to step down which would cause a constitutional crisis that the Queen would likely have to intervene on as that is the monarchs role.

Can she tell him to go? Appoint a PM? Behead someone?

BonnieSituation

The SBP getting in on the "anti-Backstop" party now:

Ronan McCrea wrote:

A few red faces over the backstop might save us in the long run
A climbdown at this stage would be humiliating for the government, but such a strategy might actually prevent a hard border...[/b]

https://www.businesspost.ie/opinion/red-faces-backstop-might-save-us-long-run-449851

I actually don't think you really need to read much more. It's such tosh.

Has anyone wondered where this internal pressure is coming from? It's so odd.

trellheim

VONC in Johnson would not force a General Election. VONC in UK Govt would as it is covered under UK FTPA

VONC in Johnson he's not legally bound to step down but if you think uproar is what you see now you aint seen nothing yet

54and56

show me the money.1 wrote: »

The only way it will stop is if the UK crash out hard brexit, then when unemployment goes to 20% and there is riots on the streets ports at a stand still and they cannot negotiate decent trade deals without taffifs.

Only then will they realise what a mistake it has been.

Logically a mature country with strong leadership could, upon reflection, admit it had made a mistake or hadn't fully thought through it's decision to invoke A50 and withdraw it, not necessarily to undermine the result of the referendum in 2016 but to call a time out to re-examine what it wants to achieve by invoking A50, prepare better and once fully prepared in 3-4 years time invoke A50 again in the knowledge that it has a clear plan of what it wants, a clear understanding of what the EU27 can and cannot grant it in terms of access etc and clear preparations in the even that a 2nd negotiation also ended up without a deal.

Unfortunately there seems to be a widely accepted belief that to act in a mature manner is in fact a sign of weakness which must be avoided at all costs.

Emotionally all Brexiteers and now many Remainers through sheer Brexit Fatigue are past V1 as they say in aviation terms and are mentally committed to exiting on Oct 31st no matter what.

I'd expect a 10 year old child to be too immature to admit a mistake, not one of the oldest democracies in the world!!

j8wk2feszrnpao

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...Like Richard Madley playing up to his audience?
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1160824995611848704

Madeley giving an excellent Brexiteer impression. "Law says we are out" but because the spin I hear say we are not out, therefore we are not out.
You can't use logic with these people.

upupup

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can she tell him to go? Appoint a PM? Behead someone?

Behead someone??...that what the french do...lock him in the tower of london

Sam Russell

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Madeley giving an excellent Brexiteer impression. "Law says we are out" but because the spin I hear say we are not out, therefore we are not out.
You can't use logic with these people.

Yes, by shouting down a qualified EU lawyer who says he was in the wrong, and continuing shouting him down. That is the Brexiteer way.

Kermit.de.frog

How many articles are there about Varadkar in the UK tabloids each day now? Must be some sort of record for a Taoiseach. It gets ever more ridiculous.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1164641/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-Dublin-event-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Michel-Barnier

The Downing Street public relations machine has given it's orders.

Sam Russell

upupup wrote: »

Behead someone??...that what the french do...lock him in the tower of london

Not the Tower of London, the Tower in the Palace of Westminster - there is a prison there for such villains.

The last time there was such a Constitutional Crisis, they did behead someone - King Charles the First - so Charles the Third (to be) should be a bit worried.

Enzokk

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

"Taking control of our borders" referred to the movement of people, not of goods.

You say taking control of borders is about immigration and not goods, but if you have the CTA you are not taking control. That is the point. You cannot take control of your borders if you have an open border with another country, which also has an open border with the institution you are leaving to take control of. That is Brexit really, slogans that mean next to nothing.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Well this is a strange direction for him to take...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/nigel-farage-ridicules-british-royal-family-in-australian-speech-1.3983728

He said he wants William to live longer than Harry to ensure Harry never becomes King. That man is an idiot, Harry is not behind William to take over. It is the 3 kids of William that is ahead of Harry. This is the guy that was heading the quest to leave the EU, and he cannot get the most basic of facts right. Well done UK, well done.

trellheim wrote: »

oh for fk sake really how stupid do you have to be to stop attending stuff you're entitled to be in and protect your countries' interest

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/12/british-diplomats-to-pull-out-from-eu-decision-making-meetings-within-days

The problem with all of this is you convince the other side that you do want to leave without a deal. It is fine to threaten it to get a deal but if the EU decides there is no going back then there is no going back. Do they not see it? Sir Ivan Rogers has been warning of an accidental no-deal for a while now and like most of his predictions this will unfortunately turn out to be true as well.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How many articles are there about Varadkar in the UK tabloids each day now? Must be some sort of record. It gets ever more ridiculous.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1164641/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-Dublin-event-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Michel-Barnier

The Downing Street public relations machine has given it's orders.

Talking about Tusk in Dublin:

"The EU’s most senior official, who didn’t have time for dinner, was treated to a €995 working lunch during his visit to the Irish capital."

What did he eat? What did he drink? Where did he have lunch?

54and56

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Actually does anyone know if our liquid fuel suppliers have contingency plans in place to source petrol, diesel & kero from the EU if there's a hard Brexit?
Are we likely to see fuel shortages?

Ireland has had a national strategic fuel reserve policy for decades - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/topics/Oil/oil-security-policy/Pages/Oil-security-policy.aspx

Stop moaning ffs

So now Johnson isn’t coming to Dublin?

What’s going on at all


https://twitter.com/sw1airish/status/1160877530536128512?s=21

RobAMerc

So now, according to the express - Germany will loose close to 55% as many jobs as the UK in a no deal Brexit ??
I'm no economist - but are we over egging our importance a bit here ?

EDIT : (Although I see now the source is the University of Leuven Belgium )

trellheim

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So now Johnson isn’t coming to Dublin?

What’s going on at all


https://twitter.com/sw1airish/status/1160877530536128512?s=21

we call this an insult in diplomatic terms. Not entirely convinced of its usefulness but Cummings obviously thinks its the right track

As I have been stating many times the pressure is coming on now, whats next on the grid I wonder

Seth Brundle

54&56 wrote: »

Ireland has had a national strategic fuel reserve policy for decades - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/topics/Oil/oil-security-policy/Pages/Oil-security-policy.aspx

Yeah, thanks - had forgotten about NORA