Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Google is my friend.

Dover to Calais: 52 miles - 90 minutes
Dover to New York: 3,526 miles - 135 hours

Best deal ever. MAGA.

I think there is a bit of dyslexia there.

Dover to Calais: 52 25 miles - 90 minutes (by ferry).

prawnsambo

L1011 wrote: »

That's physical flow via Rotterdam rather than them producing much food.

Yeah. The actual amounts exported annually are shown in the graphic for each country. Didn't realise we shipped so much cheddar to the UK. £250 million a year! Perhaps somebody should tell Liz Truss who thinks that all the cheddar they eat comes from inside the UK.

Edit: 78 thousand tonnes, 70% of production. Apparently looking at taking production to other types like Mozzarella.

Sam Russell

It looks like Amber Rudd has been bought.

Risks of no-deal Brexit can be managed by government, says Rudd
Work and pensions secretary had stated in March she believed no deal would ‘do generational damage’ to UK

Amber Rudd has said she believes the risks of a no-deal Brexit are no more than a challenge that can be countered by government action, going back on her previous assessment in which she said it would cause “generational damage” to the UK.

The work and pensions secretary, who kept her job when Boris Johnson became prime minister by renouncing her previously resolute opposition to no deal, said she still believed this would be much less preferable than a managed Brexit.

So she took the shilling to keep her job. What a disappointment.

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think there is a bit of dyslexia there.

Dover to Calais: 52 25 miles - 90 minutes (by ferry).

I think there's a bit of pedant there.

prawnsambo

Sam Russell wrote: »

It looks like Amber Rudd has been bought.



So she took the shilling to keep her job. What a disappointment.

Not defending her, but the more of these I see, the more of a bluff I smell.

Sam Russell

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. The actual amounts exported annually are shown in the graphic for each country. Didn't realise we shipped so much cheddar to the UK. £250 million a year! Perhaps somebody should tell Liz Truss who thinks that all the cheddar they eat comes from inside the UK.

In a way it does. Irish cheese is packed in the UK by Ornua in Staffordshire. This one factory produces 40% of all the hard cheese consumed in the UK. So is it UK cheese or Irish?

Sam Russell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think there's a bit of pedant there.

A pedant would have complained of an error of 22 miles vs 25 miles, but 52 miles is more than 100% out.

Hardly pedantry.

Quin_Dub

brickster69 wrote: »

You would think getting the biggest free trade deal in the world sorted would be a feather in the cap of Trump with an election coming up.

A few rousing speeches by Boris and Nigel should just about be enough for him to get another term.

Trump can claim all he wants.. Nancy Pelosi and the Congressional Democrats that run the committees are the ones that have to sign off on the deal.

And they have clearly stated that they will not sign any deal that goes against the terms of the GFA.

Any deal that Trump signs will just sit there un-approved , just like his amazing new "NAFTA in all but name" deal.

All the while the UK sit there without any deals with anyone...

Boris and Nigel going on about how Trump wants to sign a "wonderful trade deal" is a bit like someone getting all excited when the barman in the nightclub promises you 2 for 1 Cocktails but you haven't worked out how to get past the bouncers on the door yet.

prawnsambo

Sam Russell wrote: »

In a way it does. Irish cheese is packed in the UK by Ornua in Staffordshire. This one factory produces 40% of all the hard cheese consumed in the UK. So is it UK cheese or Irish?

Only if you eat the packaging.


Total cheese production in the UK was around 350k tonnes in 2017. The 80k tonnes we export to them is not insubstantial in that context.

brickster69

Quin_Dub wrote: »

And they have clearly stated that they will not sign any deal that goes against the terms of the GFA.

.

But it is the EU / IRE who are going to break the GFA. Not the UK.

Quin_Dub

brickster69 wrote: »

But it is the EU / IRE who are going to break the GFA. Not the UK.

That's bordering on trolling at this point...

The UK are the ones leaving , thereby being the cause of any action anyone else has to take to mitigate the impacts.

So they are entirely responsible for anything that happens.

prawnsambo

brickster69 wrote: »

But it is the EU / IRE who are going to break the GFA. Not the UK.

I'm afraid that little disingenuity won't get past the likes of Pelosi and Boyle, amongst others.

fash

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That's bordering on trolling at this point...

The UK are the ones leaving , thereby being the cause of any action anyone else has to take to mitigate the impacts.

So they are entirely responsible for anything that happens.

How long will the UK wait before it installs a hard border anyway? The plan seems to be "we think we can last longer than Ireland".
And then their plan is to say "well Ireland did it first- therefore we can do it"
Is there any other way they could frame their propaganda?
Otherwise, it will be great if they don't install a border - the smuggling opportunities will be a wonderful economic boost for the border counties.

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

A pedant would have complained of an error of 22 miles vs 25 miles, but 52 miles is more than 100% out.

Hardly pedantry.

Granted! But in the context of 52 miles versus 3,526 or 25 miles versus 3,526...

Anyway, I did my research again and found that I had misread. It's 52 miles (90 minutes) via the Channel Tunnel. Versus 3,526 miles (6 days) by boat. Which makes the difference even more stark.

brickster69

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That's bordering on trolling at this point...

The UK are the ones leaving , thereby being the cause of any action anyone else has to take to mitigate the impacts.

So they are entirely responsible for anything that happens.

Incorrect. the Lisbon Treaty clearly states that " any country can leave the EU " It was signed by all members including Ireland. It does not say any country apart from the UK can leave.

If the EU do not want to preserve an open border by checking goods away from the frontier and insist on goods being checked directly on the border then that is it's choice.

The only reason the EU cannot accept goods being checked away from the border is that the whole world will see that it has been used as a weapon to keep the UK in the CM and CU.

ath262

brickster69 wrote: »

...If the EU do not want to preserve an open border by checking goods away from the frontier and insist on goods being checked directly on the border then that is it's choice.....

Incorrect - since the U.K. is leaving it will no longer be in the SM or CU, so requiring checks on goods entering the EU and the associated tariffs - all due to actions of the U.K.

prawnsambo

brickster69 wrote: »

Incorrect. the Lisbon Treaty clearly states that " any country can leave the EU " It was signed by all members including Ireland. It does not say any country apart from the UK can leave.

No. It doesn't stop countries entering into treaties with other countries that depend on its membership either.

brickster69 wrote: »

If the EU do not want to preserve an open border by checking goods away from the frontier and insist on goods being checked directly on the border then that is it's choice.

The only reason the EU cannot accept goods being checked away from the border is that the whole world will see that it has been used as a weapon to keep the UK in the CM and CU.

Show me where any country carries out checks away from the border without infrastructure on that border.

brickster69

ath262 wrote: »

Incorrect - since the U.K. is leaving it will no longer be in the SM or CU, so requiring checks on good entering the EU and the associated tariffs - all due to actions of the U.K.

But it does not have to be carried out at the border does it. Ireland will be told to do checks at the border. WTO rules say checks on goods can be carried out away from any border. In that case the border will be open so the GFA will be be broken.

True or not ?

fash

brickster69 wrote: »

Incorrect. the Lisbon Treaty clearly states that " any country can leave the EU " It was signed by all members including Ireland. It does not say any country apart from the UK can leave.

"Leave" does not imply leaving the SM or CU.
Nor does it imply that Ireland will allow an post-leave agreement to be made without appropriate concessions.

And since we are talking about parties complying with their treaty obligations, why not start with the GFA.

brickster69 wrote: »

If the EU do not want to preserve an open border by checking goods away from the frontier and insist on goods being checked directly on the border then that is it's choice.

The only reason the EU cannot accept goods being checked away from the border is that the whole world will see that it has been used as a weapon to keep the UK in the CM and CU.

A clear breach of the obligation to avoid a hard border or associated checks - as set out and agreed by the UK in the joint report as being necessary for the UK to comply with its obligations under the GFA .

jm08

Sam Russell wrote: »

In a way it does. Irish cheese is packed in the UK by Ornua in Staffordshire. This one factory produces 40% of all the hard cheese consumed in the UK. So is it UK cheese or Irish?

Ornua (formerly known as The Irish Dairy Board) is an Irish co-operative company set up by the Irish State. It owns the brands Dairygold etc. I doubt very much if it is processing British cheese (unless it comes from NI)!

prawnsambo

brickster69 wrote: »

But it does not have to be carried out at the border does it. Ireland will be told to do checks at the border. WTO rules say checks on goods can be carried out away from any border. In that case the border will be open so the GFA will be be broken.

True or not ?

Please quote these WTO rules.

Kermit.de.frog

brickster69 wrote: »

the whole world will see that it has been used as a weapon to keep the UK in the CM and CU.

This seems like a comment under a Daily Express article.

I'll just say you're wrong and leave it at that. Life's too short.

ath262

brickster69 wrote: »

....In that case the border will be open so the GFA will be be broken.

True or not ?

by the actions of the UK

fash

brickster69 wrote: »

But it does not have to be carried out at the border does it. Ireland will be told to do checks at the border. WTO rules say checks on goods can be carried out away from any border. In that case the border will be open so the GFA will be be broken.

True or not ?

False- an "associated check" in breach of the Joint Report and a massive interference with the all Ireland economy - this is aside from the fact that it is not practical or effective - especially given the UK proposals to deviate from EU agriculture norms.

Imreoir2

brickster69 wrote: »

If the EU do not want to preserve an open border by checking goods away from the frontier and insist on goods being checked directly on the border then that is it's choice.

The only reason the EU cannot accept goods being checked away from the border is that the whole world will see that it has been used as a weapon to keep the UK in the CM and CU.

Checking goods a few miles away from the border rather than at the border and calling that an "open border" is infantile nonsence. That would not preserve an open border, it just means the border infastructure would be somewhere else. An open border requires that there be no infastructure or checks, not just that they be moved a few miles away for the sake of optics.

The whole world can already see quite clearly that Brexit is a failed policy and is going to damage the UK, and they can also see that the UK is failing to abide within its obligations under the GFA. If the UK implements a policy that creates the requirement for checks, that is the UKs doing, not the EUs. Trying to blame the EU for Britains failures is flagrant stupidity.

Sam Russell

jm08 wrote: »

Ornua (formerly known as The Irish Dairy Board) is an Irish co-operative company set up by the Irish State. It owns the brands Dairygold etc. I doubt very much if it is processing British cheese (unless it comes from NI)!

Of course it only processes Irish cheese that arrives in 20 kg blocks. However, on the package it says 'packed in the UK'. I'm sure, some would read that as 'UK Cheese'.

Now food origin is a complex issue. Egg laid in Slovakia, hatched in Romania, brought to final weight in Poland, killed in Holland, packed in Belgium, etc.

Who knows where some of these food items actually call home?

That is the single market for you.

Stop moaning ffs

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Checking goods a few miles away from the border rather than at the border and calling that an "open border" is infantile nonsence. That would not preserve an open border, it just means the border infastructure would be somewhere else. An open border requires that there be no infastructure or checks, not just that they be moved a few miles away for the sake of optics.

The whole world can already see quite clearly that Brexit is a failed policy and is going to damage the UK, and they can also see that the UK is failing to abide within its obligations under the GFA. If the UK implements a policy that creates the requirement for checks, that is the UKs doing, not the EUs. Trying to blame the EU for Britains failures is flagrant stupidity.

Completely agree. But that is exactly what’s going to happen and they’ll be relentless trying to shift the blame for it onto us and the EU.

CelticRambler

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's 52 miles (90 minutes) via the Channel Tunnel.

Eh? When I take the Channel Tunnel, it's only 35minutes!

In any case, at night you can see the main French shopping centre (just south) of Calais from Dover. And about 75 years ago, a certain German gentleman, whose name we won't mention, built quite an efficient system on the French side for lobbing "merchandise"of an incendiary nature across the water.

So the geographical proximity of what were once two halves of a Norman extended family's stomping ground is not something that can be easily replaced by a new-found desire to learn/speak Mandarin.

CelticRambler

brickster69 wrote: »

But it does not have to be carried out at the border does it. Ireland will be told to do checks at the border. WTO rules say checks on goods can be carried out away from any border. In that case the border will be open so the GFA will be be broken.

True or not ?

Partially true. But the EU came up with a suggestion, coherent with both WTO rules and the GFA: that those checks were carried out at the Irish Sea border.

Some British MPs decided that that was incompatible with their vision of the Union and steered the UK government in a different direction, one which has subsequently left the UK spinning like a top while the EU waits for someone, anyone to propose a workable, effective and internationally acceptable alternative.

jm08

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course it only processes Irish cheese that arrives in 20 kg blocks. However, on the package it says 'packed in the UK'. I'm sure, some would read that as 'UK Cheese'.

Now food origin is a complex issue. Egg laid in Slovakia, hatched in Romania, brought to final weight in Poland, killed in Holland, packed in Belgium, etc.

Who knows where some of these food items actually call home?

That is the single market for you.

Consumers according to the supermarkets, don't like that. There was a bit of bother with Northern Ireland where Tesco would not accept beef whose origins began in the Republic, bought into Northern Ireland for fattening and slaughter. This trade has stopped now because Tesco only wants beef labeled British or Irish. This system has killed off the calf trade between Republic and Northern Ireland. Tesco sell both British and Irish beef, but not in the same pack.

By the way, the EU were getting slammed for this when in fact it had nothing to do with it. It is the supermarkets.