Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Zubeneschamali

Sam Russell wrote: »

He should resign or be sacked.

He will be gone in a week.

Timberrrrrrrr

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why was he the one to jump out of his seat and grab her? Those sitting near him took no action. Was he on security duty? Did he consider himself to be the appropriate person to physically assault her? Or is he just a brute?

It is truly shocking that he took such action. He should resign or be sacked.

Some awful hyperbole going on in this thread, you would swear he beat shìte out of her instead of just escorting her out. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.

robinph

The protest group was also deliberately made up of women, with a couple of blokes dressed in dinner jackets to shepard them into the room looking a bit like they were the security themselves. By using women as the visible bit of the protest is purely to enable them to get away with more on the assumption that nobody will belive a woman in a dress is going to cause any trouble and then the security is restricted in how to deal with them once they are inside the venue.

Nobody would be kicking up a storm in the media if exactly the same physicality had been used against a male protester. Its very deliberate to have used women in the protest.

Walter Bishop

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Some awful hyperbole going on in this thread, you would swear he beat shìte out of her instead of just escorting her out. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.

Lol @ 'escorting her out' unless 'escorting' means 'grabbing her by the neck, shoving her against a pillar, and frogmarching her out of the room, still holding her by the neck'.

Leroy42

And yet when a male protester took over the podium at McVey leadership campaign launch recently nobody grabbed him by the neck?

robinph

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why was he the one to jump out of his seat and grab her? Those sitting near him took no action. Was he on security duty? Did he consider himself to be the appropriate person to physically assault her? Or is he just a brute?

It is truly shocking that he took such action. He should resign or be sacked.

Because he just happened to spot the one who had got away from the rest of the security trying to deal with the other 40 protestors. He was also at the end of the table so had more time to spot her running down there and hop up to block her way to the top table.

Berserker

PeadarCo wrote: »

He doesn't believe in Brexit. It just suits his political needs.

How do you know that he doesn't believe it in? He's supported Brexit from day one as far as I can see.

Peregrinus wrote: »

It really doesn't. The rules of the game don't depend on the identity of the players. A late substitution of May, T. by Johnson, B in the dying moments of the match is not going to make any difference.

A late substitution in the dying stages of a match can have a massive impact on the end result. It's not over til it's over.

Timberrrrrrrr

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Lol @ 'escorting her out' unless 'escorting' means 'grabbing her by the neck, shoving her against a pillar, and frogmarching her out of the room, still holding her by the neck'.

Was she injured (apart from her pride)?

Zubeneschamali

Berserker wrote: »

A late substitution in the dying stages of a match can have a massive impact on the end result. It's not over til it's over.

It's been over for months. The EU negotiating team have literally gone home already.

Strazdas

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Some awful hyperbole going on in this thread, you would swear he beat shìte out of her instead of just escorting her out. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.

Putting his hands on her neck looked horrendous. Most men wouldn't dream of touching a woman like that.

The optics would have been nowhere near as bad if he had put an arm around her shoulder (though still questionable).

Sam Russell

robinph wrote: »

Because he just happened to spot the one who had got away from the rest of the security trying to deal with the other 40 protestors. He was also at the end of the table so had more time to spot her running down there and hop up to block her way to the top table.

I think he was devoured by RAGE and the red mist descended and the RAGE took over, his pride and manliness was at stake.

He had to act as the pride of the Tory Party was at stake, and to allow a woman to protest was unthinkable. Rage Rage.

Well, he might have a while to reconsider his action. Are the police investigating?

Remember the UKIP guy who suggesting rape was the appropriate reaction? What ever happened to him? (Because it was a him).

Infini

Leroy42 wrote: »

And yet when a male protester took over the podium at McVey leadership campaign launch recently nobody grabbed him by the neck?

She was tresspassing, nobody knew for sure what was happening and he decided to forcibly remove the stupid eejit. He didnt punch, choke or slap her just restrained and removed her. I won't defend the undefendable but its pretty obvious some people are using the issue to shìtstir for point scoring not to mention society has gone too soft in some areas in general dealing with this level of idiocy.

robinph

Leroy42 wrote: »

And yet when a male protester took over the podium at McVey leadership campaign launch recently nobody grabbed him by the neck?

Hadn't heard of that one, but not really an equivalent situation from the clip I just saw.

In one you have someone running around the edge of a room containing various vips and the person running has unknown intentions and the only way to stop them is to get in their way and quickly, in the other you have someone stood around shouting who they then talked down/ out of the room.

Maybe the MP last night was slightly over the top in the force used and putting his hand on her neck, but he did that for only a very brief moment and before that all he was doing was standing up and blocking her way and momentum carried her into the pillar.

Sam Russell

robinph wrote: »

Hadn't heard of that one, but not really an equivalent situation from the clip I just saw.

In one you have someone running around the edge of a room containing various vips and the person running has unknown intentions and the only way to stop them is to get in their way and quickly, in the other you have someone stood around shouting who they then talked down/ out of the room.

Maybe the MP last night was slightly over the top in the force used and putting his hand on her neck, but he did that for only a very brief moment and before that all he was doing was standing up and blocking her way and momentum carried her into the pillar.

You were watching a different video clip.

Enzokk

L1011 wrote: »

Tories are now a man down following a recall petition in Wales; in an area that was Lib Dem for an age and where they have a sitting AM - could easily swap in the by election and starts to bring the numbers for getting a Queens Speech through in to severe doubt

If they lose that seat then the majority is down to three, with two MPs spoiling their ballot papers in the recent vote, it would make an interesting no-confidence vote if Corbyn decides to call it on whoever is the new PM.

As for the reaction of the MP, I think he should learn a some restraint. I think he knew he could take the woman and that is why he stood up to confront and remove her. If this had been the guy from the second tweet, I doubt he would have had the courage. It is also no excuse the he was startled, this wasn't someone that caught him by surprise, it was quite a long protest that disrupted their event and it looked peaceful enough.

https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1141982893134286848

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1142044539567452161



As for other news, no reopening of the WA.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1142022291485810688

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1142022706092826624

robinph

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think he was devoured by RAGE and the red mist descended and the RAGE took over, his pride and manliness was at stake.

He had to act as the pride of the Tory Party was at stake, and to allow a woman to protest was unthinkable. Rage Rage.

Well, he might have a while to reconsider his action. Are the police investigating?

Remember the UKIP guy who suggesting rape was the appropriate reaction? What ever happened to him? (Because it was a him).

I think you are reading too much into it.

There was a protest going on, across the other side of the room is loads of shouting and shoving and people being bundled out of the room. One of the protesters runs past his table, he gets up and blocks their way.

She knew 100% what she was getting into. He may have put a hand in a wrong place in the minor pushing and shoving that was happening, although if trying to block the progress of a woman in a dress a hand on the back of the neck is probably one of the safer places to hold them.

funkey_monkey

The protest was about the UK Climate Change policies. Not Brexit...

Enzokk

I found this tweet interesting about UKIP and Brexit and whether the anger over austerity drove their support. Seems the conclusion is that UKIP voters wanted further austerity measures that went deeper. That sounds like Tory voters more than what you would expect Labour voters would support.

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1142050165530009601

j8wk2feszrnpao

I heard about Mark Field before I saw the video, so was expecting a lot worse from some of the descriptions. It's not the violent take-down that some are going over board with, but it's a totally unnecessary action. He could have confronted her, asked her to leave (she wasn't exactly posing a threat) or called upon security. His actions cannot be defended really.

PeadarCo

Berserker wrote:

How do you know that he doesn't believe it in? He's supported Brexit from day one as far as I can see.

He hasn't. If the wind was blowing a different way one day before the referendum he would have decided to publish his column in favour of remain not brexit. Remember he had two different columns ready to go.

Nody

robinph wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into it.

There was a protest going on, across the other side of the room is loads of shouting and shoving and people being bundled out of the room. One of the protesters runs past his table, he gets up and blocks their way.

She knew 100% what she was getting into. He may have put a hand in a wrong place in the minor pushing and shoving that was happening, although if trying to block the progress of a woman in a dress a hand on the back of the neck is probably one of the safer places to hold them.

He's set himself up for failure. He's not trained to handle someone else, he's not certified to do it and by taking said action he's most likely set himself up for a potential lawsuit in regards to it as well. Even trained bouncers would never do what he did and he has zero authority to act in such a capacity esp. once she's subdued. As someone who's done military service inc. guard duty we were very clearly told the limits of what we could do and that's as a military guard at a military installation and we'd never been allowed to go to the extent he did so yea, he ****ed up.

Snickers Man

How contemporary does this speech sound?
"Rest assured mighty changes are coming in Ireland. ...The Unionist position is no longer tenable; your leaders are abandoning it...Do you not see that Englishmen are prepared to sacrifice you if they can only secure the good will of the rest of Ireland? Is it not time that you reconsidered yyour position?...IReland's right to determine its own destiny will come about whether the Protestants of Ulster like it or not"

* Emphasis in bold is mine.

Does that sound like a Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail speech made at a summer school post Brexit referendum, ie some time since 2016?

Actually it was a speech made to Derry's Protestants/Unionists in January 1920, nearly 100 years ago!!!, by newly elected Mayor of Derry Alderman Hugh O'Doherty. It was to be the only time until 1973 when a Catholic had been appointed mayor of this predominantly Catholic city and it was of course during the war of independence when the Nationalists/Republicans were confident of ultimate victory following Sinn Fein's stunning win at the 1918 general election. the speech was recorded in the Derry Journal and quoted later in Eamon McCann's book War and an Irish Town.

Interesting the faith Nationalists had in the ultimate lack of interest in ireland's affairs by London, so long as "the goodwill of..IReland" could be assured. They got that one sadly wrong, didn't they?

I think Britain's strategic interest in maintaining a foothold in Ireland will become more acute post Brexit and their determination to stay, however dire may be teh consequences for society in the North, will only be enhanced.

I can't see Brexit as being in any way a facilitator for a United Ireland.

Sam Russell

robinph wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into it.

There was a protest going on, across the other side of the room is loads of shouting and shoving and people being bundled out of the room. One of the protesters runs past his table, he gets up and blocks their way.

She knew 100% what she was getting into. He may have put a hand in a wrong place in the minor pushing and shoving that was happening, although if trying to block the progress of a woman in a dress a hand on the back of the neck is probably one of the safer places to hold them.

I am of the school of thought (and behaviour) that it is NEVER acceptable for a male to assault a woman - in any circumstances. He could have simply blocked her passage, and waited for the paid help to deal with it.

If you, as a male, lay a hand on a woman without consent, then that is assault.

Call me Al

robinph wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into it.

There was a protest going on, across the other side of the room is loads of shouting and shoving and people being bundled out of the room. One of the protesters runs past his table, he gets up and blocks their way.

She knew 100% what she was getting into. He may have put a hand in a wrong place in the minor pushing and shoving that was happening, although if trying to block the progress of a woman in a dress a hand on the back of the neck is probably one of the safer places to hold them.

She was walking alongside his table and dozens of people. She wasn't saying anything. Just walking, wearing a sash saying climate change blah blah.. and holding a phone in her hand.

Such a brave man to take her on. What with her being such a menacing presence and everything.

He could have simply stood in her path to block her, big man that he is. Or pushed out his chair to get in her way. But no, instead he chose to grab her by the neck and shove her into a pillar.

If he'd had a bit of cop on like the hundreds of others sitting there who realised security would handle it, and if he'd kept his hands to himself, he wouldn't be in the mess he's in now.
His own fault and I've zero sympathy for him.

gimli2112

I see her husband posted/tweeted/whatever "She's fine. She's taking the government down one Tory at a time"

Laois_Man

Berserker wrote: »

Angry at the British government because the EU decided to build a hard border on the island? It's the EU building the wall not the British government.

Do you not realize that if/when the UK leave with no-deal, both the EU and the UK are required to have a border?

Tell me how

robinph wrote: »

Hadn't heard of that one, but not really an equivalent situation from the clip I just saw.

In one you have someone running around the edge of a room containing various vips and the person running has unknown intentions and the only way to stop them is to get in their way and quickly, in the other you have someone stood around shouting who they then talked down/ out of the room.

Maybe the MP last night was slightly over the top in the force used and putting his hand on her neck, but he did that for only a very brief moment and before that all he was doing was standing up and blocking her way and momentum carried her into the pillar.

You do realise there is a video of the incident don't you?

robinph

Tell me how wrote: »

You do realise there is a video of the incident don't you?

Yep, it's currently on the front of most news sites incase you've not seen it yourself.

He gives her a shove to block her way, then she wriggles to try to get past him, then he pushes her back the way she came. It's barely more force than was being used to remove the rest of the protesters from the room, just most of the video of the rest of them you can't see anything other than arms in the air and general pushing and shoving going on so difficult to make a headline news story about those bits on their own.

Yes, he's a muppet, but it's nothing like the scandal that it's trying to be made out as. She is also not pressing charges, presumably because she realises that nothing will come of it other than a few more newspaper headlines.

Tell me how

robinph wrote: »

He gives her a shove to block her way, then she wriggles to try to get past him, then he pushes her back the way she came.

Well, at least you have corrected your earlier statement, maybe watch it a few more times.

robinph wrote: »

Maybe the MP last night was slightly over the top in the force used and putting his hand on her neck, but he did that for only a very brief moment and before that all he was doing was standing up and blocking her way and momentum carried her into the pillar.

Calina

robinph wrote: »

Yep, it's currently on the front of most news sites incase you've not seen it yourself.

He gives her a shove to block her way, then she wriggles to try to get past him, then he pushes her back the way she came. It's barely more force than was being used to remove the rest of the protesters from the room, just most of the video of the rest of them you can't see anything other than arms in the air and general pushing and shoving going on so difficult to make a headline news story about those bits on their own.

Yes, he's a muppet, but it's nothing like the scandal that it's trying to be made out as. She is also not pressing charges, presumably because she realises that nothing will come of it other than a few more newspaper headlines.

The way he held her neck as he pushed her out was deeply worrying. And the way he shoved her up against the pillar.

There is no justification or excuse. Writing it off as nothing major is pathetic.