Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

LeinsterDub

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, at least you have corrected your earlier statement, maybe watch it a few more times.

The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

In a world with more and more people recording incidents are they happen disputes over what actually happened should be becoming less and less frequent. The opposite appears to be happening. People are choosing to ignore the facts in front of them and invent their own reality.

Quin_Dub

Let's move on from the Mark Field incident please.

It's not related to Brexit in anyway.

Feel free to continue the discussion in another thread.

Thanks

BluePlanet

Snickers Man wrote: »

I think Britain's strategic interest in maintaining a foothold in Ireland will become more acute post Brexit and their determination to stay, however dire may be teh consequences for society in the North, will only be enhanced.

I can't see Brexit as being in any way a facilitator for a United Ireland.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the Downing Street Declaration?

The Prime Minister, on behalf of the British Government, reaffirms that they will uphold the democratic wish of the greater number of the people of Northern Ireland on the issue of whether they prefer to support the Union or a sovereign united Ireland. On this basis, he reiterates, on the behalf of the British Government, that they have no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland. Their primary interest is to see peace, stability and reconciliation established by agreement among all the people inhabit the island, and they will work together with the Irish Government to achieve such an agreement, which will embrace the totality of relationships..
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/dsd151293.htm

Certainly a No-Deal Brexit, where the north is virtually cut off from the rest of the island will make a United Ireland much more likely.

Laois_Man

BJ has refused to take part in the Sky News debate with Jeremy Hunt next Tuesday!

ERG members backed him for not taking part in last Sunday's debate with the excuse that there was too many people in it who wouldn't be in the final run-off. I look forward to their new excuse. It should be hilarious!

Capt'n Midnight

Enzokk wrote: »

I found this tweet interesting about UKIP and Brexit and whether the anger over austerity drove their support. Seems the conclusion is that UKIP voters wanted further austerity measures that went deeper. That sounds like Tory voters more than what you would expect Labour voters would support.

twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1142050165530009601

It smacks of I'm all right Jack.

Triple lock pensions means older people think they don't have to worry.
A hard Brexit will hit the economy and that will mean NHS cuts.

From here it looks like the UK is splitting into haves and have nots.

Flex

Laois_Man wrote: »

Do you not realize that if/when the UK leave with no-deal, both the EU and the UK are required to have a border?

He/she and every person realises this. The proposed idea of ‘just leave the border wide open’ and ‘we won’t put one up and you said you don’t want one, so what’s the problem?’. As regulations diverge, particular example being when the UK has to lower food safety standards and accept chlorinated chicken and hormone fed beef, etc there, we absolutely need to protect the single market and our own food safety standards the very high esteem and high quality our agricultural exports are held in. That’s just one issue with the ‘leave the border wide open’. If a single tabloid in GB wrote a story about a Polish plumber sneaking to GB to do some work via the open Ireland-northern ireland border there’d be an campaign to close it up, unless the UK could get concessions from the EU

The deliberate dishonesty and ignorance perfectly exemplifies the zero-integrity approach to this on the UK Brexiteer side.

Capt'n Midnight

Remember how the UK is a services based economy, which is running a £28 Bn surplus on services with the EU, and they were hoping for equivalence so it could be business as usual ?


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-switzerland-exchanges/swiss-exchanges-to-lose-access-to-eu-investors-from-july-idUSKCN1TM215

the European Commission will not propose extending the equivalence regime that lets EU investors trade on Swiss bourses, effectively ending it as of July 1, an EU diplomat told Reuters on Friday.
... because Bern did not endorse a partnership treaty with the EU that had been negotiated for years, the diplomat said.

Snickers Man

BluePlanet wrote: »

Perhaps you are not familiar with the Downing Street Declaration?

The Prime Minister...reiterates, on the behalf of the British Government, that they have no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland. Their primary interest is to see peace, stability and reconciliation established by agreement among all the people inhabit the island,

I'm very familiar with the Downing St Declaration. I'm also familiar with the tendency of the powerful to treat such documents as mere scraps of paper when it suits them.

I'm not saying I welcome the likely scenario; I most certainly don't. I wish with all my heart that Brexit wasn't going to happen, but it is. And the consequences could be dire. For us. Frankly, I don't care what it does to Britain, they made their own bed let them lie on it.

I also don't doubt that the Declaration was sincerely made at the time but that was 25 years ago. To quote the poets
"All changed, changed utterly, an almighty **** up is taking place"
Or
"The treaty broken ere the ink wherewith ’twas writ could dry" (ditto for Declarations)

I'm just saying: 100 years ago some Nationalists thought the Brits would like nothing more than to be rid of the place. And today, many seem to think the same. I'd like to, but I think we'll be stuck with them for some time yet.

An Ciarraioch

Farage tweets an "entirely genuine" letter from a ten-year-old:

http://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1142097162748215296

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It smacks of I'm all right Jack.


From here it looks like the UK is splitting into haves and have nots.

It's always been split between the haves and have nots, the country has never been united top to bottom in peacetime, the nearest they got to unity was during WWII.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/21/police-called-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home

Police called to loud altercation at Boris Johnson's home
Neighbour records shouting and banging at flat potential PM shares with Carrie Symonds

Water John

Will it damage him, doubt it? Like our own Charlie Haughey.

Tell me how

We are heading for something I could never have imagined would happen just 5 years ago with Johnson and Trump leading 2 of the most influential countries in our lives outside of the one we live in.

Incoherent, blustering, lying, cheating, etc etc etc. They could be twins!

I wouldn't trust either of them to run a sub 100 person company and yet, here they are (nearly in Johnson's case) leaders of their country. Mind boggling.

Jamiekelly

"The neighbour decided to call 999. Two police cars and a van arrived within minutes, shortly after midnight, but left after receiving reassurances from both the individuals in the flat that they were safe.

When contacted by the Guardian on Friday, police initially said they had no record of a domestic incident at the address. But when given the case number and reference number, as well as identification markings of the vehicles that were called out, police issued a statement saying: “At 00:24hrs on Friday, 21 June, police responded to a call from a local resident in [south London]. The caller was concerned for the welfare of a female neighbour.

“Police attended and spoke to all occupants of the address, who were all safe and well. There were no offences or concerns apparent to the officers and there was no cause for police action.”

That's not a very good look for the police to actively lie about a call out to the next PM's address about a possible domestic dispute. Especially with the debate going on over Mark Field and whether he should be charged with assault.

What is it with Tory MP's and questionable actions towards women? There's been 4 different incidents in the last 10 days alone.

Loafing Oaf

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/21/police-called-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home

Kind of surprising you can hear 'conversations' verbatim through the walls in a building like that but you'd imagine the Guardian have vetted their sources thoroughly on a potentially controversial story like this...

Dante7

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Kind of surprising you can hear 'conversations' verbatim through the walls in a building like that but you'd imagine the Guardian have vetted their sources thoroughly on a potentially controversial story like this...

They may have recorded it from outside the door of the flat. They had knocked on the door a few times.

Jamiekelly

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Kind of surprising you can hear 'conversations' verbatim through the walls in a building like that but you'd imagine the Guardian have vetted their sources thoroughly on a potentially controversial story like this...

To be fair this is Boris Johnson we are talking about. He's incredibly loud and haphazard with his voice on a good day.

Harry Palmr

The No 10 cat might want to consider moving next door if Boris Johnson moves in.

Be interesting to see if this story gains legs or is dismissed as black propaganda.

Enzokk

So PM Jeremy Hunt then? Don't know if that is good or bad, guess its just, meh.

As for more Brexit information, there is this handy tweet on what has been agreed between the EU and UK regarding the NI/Ireland.

https://twitter.com/hayward_katy/status/1142132022518996992

Loafing Oaf

Jamiekelly wrote: »

To be fair this is Boris Johnson we are talking about. He's incredibly loud and haphazard with his voice on a good day.

Majority of the quotes seem to be from Ms Symonds, who you'd imagine is in a pretty pivotal position now if there's any truth to this. If she decided to walk out on him and 'dish the dirt' it could do him serious damage...

Sam Russell

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Majority of the quotes seem to be from Ms Symonds, who you'd imagine is in a pretty pivotal position now if there's any truth to this. If she decided to walk out on him and 'dish the dirt' it could do him serious damage...

... or even show herself with some damage to her appearance.

What on earth is going on in the Tory Party?

L1011

If the recording has what's claimed in it; anyone other than Boris would have to go. He probably won't though.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

If the recording has what's claimed in it; anyone other than Boris would have to go. He probably won't though.

It's very notable that State TV (previously known as the BBC) is not covering this at all, despite the fact pretty much every other news outlet in the UK is and all the press are as well, but I guess it doesn't suit their agenda.

It shouldn't surprise me because the BBC are clearly agenda driven these days and cannot be relied on to deliver impartial news, but it just shows how far it has fallen and it should be disregarded s a proper news source.

I would be angry about paying for a TV License in the UK right now, since it seems like it is funding state sponsored news agendas for the purposes of the state rather than delivering impartial news.

Ben Done

L1011 wrote: »

If the recording has what's claimed in it; anyone other than Boris would have to go. He probably won't though.

Boris is what people of his own class term a 'cad'.

In other words, his behaviour towards women is excused, by virtue of him being posh.


Edit: urban dictionary puts it better:

A cad is a man who is aware of the codes of conduct which seperate a gentleman from a ruffian, but finds himself unable to quite live up to them. Cads are quite capable of disguising themselves as good chaps for some time, only revealing their true nature in circumstances of particular stress or temptation. Others embrace their caddishness whole-heartedly and delight in behaving in a manner which is, to be quite frank, not cricket.

They are certainly intelligent, educated, often cultured and frequently very witty, but, alas, are simply unreliable.

L1011

devnull wrote: »

It's very notable that State TV (previously known as the BBC) is not covering this at all, despite the fact pretty much every other news outlet in the UK is and all the press are as well, but I guess it doesn't suit their agenda.

It shouldn't surprise me because the BBC are clearly agenda driven these days and cannot be relied on to deliver impartial news, but it just shows how far it has fallen and it should be disregarded s a proper news source.

I would be angry about paying for a TV License in the UK right now, since it seems like it is funding state sponsored news agendas for the purposes of the state rather than delivering impartial news.

I used to say I'd miss the BBC when the Tories privatised it; they've managed to mostly kill it without even doing that.

Strazdas

L1011 wrote: »

If the recording has what's claimed in it; anyone other than Boris would have to go. He probably won't though.

Going by the Trump example in 2016 (even worse audio recordings), Johnson and his millions of supporters will just laugh it off

Seth Brundle

devnull wrote: »

It's very notable that State TV (previously known as the BBC) is not covering this at all, despite the fact pretty much every other news outlet in the UK is and all the press are as well, but I guess it doesn't suit their agenda.

It shouldn't surprise me because the BBC are clearly agenda driven these days and cannot be relied on to deliver impartial news, but it just shows how far it has fallen and it should be disregarded s a proper news source.

I would be angry about paying for a TV License in the UK right now, since it seems like it is funding state sponsored news agendas for the purposes of the state rather than delivering impartial news.

In fairness, it's a no brainer from an editorial perspective. A neighbour called the police over arguing at Boris' apartment When the police got there they were satisfied that there was nothing to report.
If the BBC reported it then Boris could possibly sue them for repeating unfounded and malicious claims made by a disgruntled neighbour which were designed to scupper his campaign.

Laois_Man

I just find it fascinating that both sides accuse the BBC of being anti their side and of having an agenda to promote the other

Sam Russell

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness, it's a no brainer from an editorial perspective. A neighbour called the police over arguing at Boris' apartment When the police got there they were satisfied that there was nothing to report.
If the BBC reported it then Boris could possibly sue them for repeating unfounded and malicious claims made by a disgruntled neighbour which were designed to scupper his campaign.

It's a bit more than that though.

Neighbour calls the police about a woman crying in distress, shouting 'Get out of my apartment' plus a bit more, and obvious domestic going on. Police arrive and verify that nothing untoward is reported by occupants.

So far so good.

Neighbour contacts Guardian about it and police deny event occurred. Guardian give details of incident number and details of vehicles attending. Police confirm story.

So story is - disturbance involving BJ and girlfriend. Police called. Police deny they were called. Police confirm they were called when confronted with details.

So Police are prepared to lie about serious domestic incident involving senior Tory. That is the story.

Joe_ Public

I dont know if the bbc is biased or not - who watches and takes account of everything to make such a judgement? - but it does seem apparent to me that most of the noise about apparent bias and agendas comes from the leave, far right side. Question Time gets savaged for having a supposed pro-remain bias every week, yet there were 3 brexiteers on the 5-person panel last night and i didn't hear a word said about it.