Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Stop moaning ffs

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Another peach of an article on the website this morning on the alternative arrangements fantasy. It's a long one but should be required reading for anyone looking for a clearer understanding of the issues involved.

I would say, though, that there are definitely some good reporters in the UK, its just they get more easily drowned out by those not either doing their homework or just maliciously spreading biased agendas. Two of my go-to media people would be Anand Menon and Jonathan Freedland who i find to be on the money on nearly all the issues, though i suppose both being committed remainers would tend to chime with my own view of things. Danny Finklestein on the other side, or at least centre tory ground, is generally a beacon of good sense too i find.

Ill look them up thanks

James O Brien is great too but in a separate league. Ian Dunt is entertainingly angry on the remainiacs podcast. Weirdly I’ve never seen many articles of his though he is more an editor I guess.

McGiver

LeinsterDub wrote:

Adam Fleming was unbelievable on brexitcast this week. Making out it was outrageous that the EU's climate change policy was vetoed by 3 countries. I mean you can't have it both ways. You can't have a highly effective and efficient EU that simultaneously respects the will of each country

This is not only relevant for the Brexiteers. This is general eurosceptic logic.

They say the EU is an inefficient, indecisive, slow and wasteful organisation while they also say it's a superstate quasi-dictatorship run by Germany & France and unelected bureaucrats, who control everything by some force.

These two positions are essentially logically not reconcilable in reality but yet all hard eurosceptics hold these contradictory views. It's been shown many times in the Brexit escapade as well.

Loafing Oaf

Jeremy Hunt flashing a bit of chest at the hustings in Birmingham. In your face Boris Johnson and all your 'charisma'.:P

Joe_ Public

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Ill look them up thanks

James O Brien is great too but in a separate league. Ian Dunt is entertainingly angry on the remainiacs podcast. Weirdly I’ve never seen many articles of his though he is more an editor I guess.

Dunt can be entertaining alright, i just check him occasionally on twitter is all, his feed on the night of the last tory leadership debate was priceless.

I think irish reporters are generally better placed to give a more insightful overview on it all, as they have that bit more distance between it. I do find Fintan O'Toole to be generally insightful and entertaining, though he does tend to repeat himself quite a bit. Kevin O'Rourke is another i like, his From Brexit to Brentry is probably the best insight into how we reached the point we have.

In broadcasting terms, i'd also have a soft spot for Beth Rigby, think she does a rather difficult job fairly commendably all told.

ancapailldorcha

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The Brits don’t have a single journalist that can hold a candle to him. Which is a real shame.

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:

1. Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast
2. Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched
3. Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove
4. Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute
5. Steve Analyst
6. David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:

1. Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast
2. Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched
3. Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove
4. Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute
5. Steve Analyst
6. David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

Emma Barnett is decent also. Radio 5 presenter. She is very similar in style and tone to James O'Brien.

Stop moaning ffs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:

1. Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast
2. Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched
3. Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove
4. Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute
5. Steve Analyst
6. David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

I probably shouldn’t have made it such a sweeping statement but you never see or hear these voices. Or I haven’t at least. . They’re drowned out by the dark agenda side of it in my experience.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is quite unfair and inaccurate IMO. There are several but they've become lost amongst the noise from the Brexiter press. Some examples:

1. Ian Dunt who edits Politics.co.uk and appears regularly on the Remainiacs podcast
2. Tim Shipman at The Times who's book on the referendum is astonishingly comprehensive and well researched
3. Former Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove
4. Roland Smith of the Adam Smith Institute
5. Steve Analyst
6. David Allen Green at the FT who is also a lawyer

People like this provide thoughtful and insightful commentary which unfortunately needs to be sought out actively by people who are interested as it's just not viable in the mainstream Brexit debate. Stuff like Article 24 of the GATT just isn't sexy sadly.

George Parker of the FT and John Rentoul of The Indpendent are good as well

ToBeFrank123

I've a feeling Boris's bustup with his girlfriend is a foretaste of what we can expect as prime minister.

He's going to go to Brussels and tell them all to F off and they will reciprocate.

He's a bumbling hothead.

ancapailldorcha

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I probably shouldn’t have made it such a sweeping statement but you never see or hear these voices. Or I haven’t at least. . They’re drowned out by the dark agenda side of it in my experience.

In fairness, they've been drowned out. Personality and Unicorns trump moderation and depth sadly.

Nody

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, they've been drowned out. Personality and Unicorns trump moderation and depth sadly.

Here's the secret way to get around moderation lads; bring out those cornetto horses!

Seriously though I don't think it's so much drowning out as simply the continuation of the decades long stupidification of news. News have consistently been there to "explain" to people what to think. Over time as things move faster and faster and we don't sit down in front of the TV every night to find out what happened the news cycle has to be shorter, snappier and more attention grabbing instead. The specialists news are still out there but who want to read a 10.000 word article when you can get a headline of 5 words and move on to look at the page 6 eye candy (or insert what ever article you want such as football etc. depending on personal preferences) after all? And as it's in the newspaper it has to be true; or so we unconsciously assume after all since they are regulated. Add in confirmation bias growing stronger via echo chambers such as FB et al targeting to show you stuff you like only (to keep you around and keep you content) it simply builds on each other to provide you the information you want to hear/believe and as it's from multiple sources it has to be true after all.

trashcan

What the whole thing (and Trump too) is proving is that there are a lot of very stupid people out there. Now seemingly you can't say that because democracy, will of the people etc etc, and you're belittling them and not respecting them. But, f€&ok it, sometimes things just have to be called out. As Forrest Gump said, stupid is as stupid does.

Nody

trashcan wrote: »

What the whole thing (and Trump too) is proving is that there are a lot of very stupid people out there. Now seemingly you can't say that because democracy, will of the people etc etc, and you're belittling them and not respecting them. But, f€&ok it, sometimes things just have to be called out. As Forrest Gump said, stupid is as stupid does.

But it's not something new; you can go back to the Roman empire and look at how you publicly bribed your voters with food and wine, or put up games for them to watch etc. And bad leaders is once again nothing new either; hence what makes Boris/Trump/et al worse than before I think is not that they are that much worse but simply due to the news cycle and easy access we simply get to see more of it. This ties in with my earlier comment on shorter articles etc. This reflects as well into debates were it's 60s at best to outline a vision which then by necessity boils down to soundbites.

jm08

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Whatever way this all shakes out I hope someone somewhere remembers to give Tony Connolly an award. And lots of money.
His coverage has been outstanding. A clear and accurate voice in the neverending storm of bs and agenda.

The Brits don’t have a single journalist that can hold a candle to him. Which is a real shame.

It has probably been useful that the Brixit Taskforce Press Officer is Irish!

jm08

Boris looking very uncomforatable in interview (and refuses to talk about incident).


Its been streamed here for anyone who wants to watch. https://news.sky.com/story/watch-sky-news-live-10315632

Headshot

jm08 wrote: »

Boris looking very uncomforatable in interview (and refuses to talk about incident).


Its been streamed here for anyone who wants to watch. https://news.sky.com/story/watch-sky-news-live-10315632

I tuned into it a bit late but did he actually explain how he's going to get the UK out of Europe?

blackcard

jm08 wrote: »

Boris looking very uncomforatable in interview (and refuses to talk about incident).


Its been streamed here for anyone who wants to watch. https://news.sky.com/story/watch-sky-news-live-10315632

He comes across as a chancer. He spent 10 minutes avoiding questions about the police being called to his girlfriend's flat. Then, he talks about 'creative ambiguity ' in relation to the Brexit divorce bill.

Headshot

What a buffoon, I love the way he keeps looking at the watch and dying to get out

Avoiding questions he doesnt like

Laois_Man

Headshot wrote: »

I tuned into it a bit late but did he actually explain how he's going to get the UK out of Europe?

Yes, in summary, BJ is still banging on about sorting out the Irish border in the FTA agreement after the UK leaves and he claims the EU will agree to invoking GATT 24 pending a FTA and doesnt accept that the EU wouldn't agree to such a thing

When questioned by Iain Dale of LBC on the domestic dispute matter on Thursday night, his predictable response was people don't want to hear about that kind of thing (to loud applause) and, despite continued badgering from Dale (to loud heckling in support of BJ), persisted in avoidance of the question for a further number of minutes....

Water John

Came to it late too but Boris performance is very poor. If this is, the great visionary, the Tories have, sad for England.
Being tetchy with his interviewer, reveals his true character.

BTW the chairs used are wierd, looks odd.

Joe_ Public

Tax breaks for the rich, more allowances and higher incomes for the poor. Life's going to be a dream in Boris land.

Water John

Really absurd to glance again at his watch and ask how much time left. If he doesn't want to be there, but he's showing absolute contempt for his electorate, the Conservative party members.

Joe_ Public

Its a waste of time because nothing he says is getting any sort of scrutiny, he's just waffling on and on and that'll be good enough for that crowd I reckon.

MrMusician18

SNIP. Don't question mod warnings on thread.

Headshot

Standing ovation, it's quite sickening and just goes to show how the Conservatives downfall is their own making.

jm08

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Tax breaks for the rich, more allowances and higher incomes for the poor. Life's going to be a dream in Boris land.

More police and bankers are great people!

Stop moaning ffs

Nody wrote: »

Here's the secret way to get around moderation lads; bring out those cornetto horses!

Seriously though I don't think it's so much drowning out as simply the continuation of the decades long stupidification of news. News have consistently been there to "explain" to people what to think. Over time as things move faster and faster and we don't sit down in front of the TV every night to find out what happened the news cycle has to be shorter, snappier and more attention grabbing instead. The specialists news are still out there but who want to read a 10.000 word article when you can get a headline of 5 words and move on to look at the page 6 eye candy (or insert what ever article you want such as football etc. depending on personal preferences) after all? And as it's in the newspaper it has to be true; or so we unconsciously assume after all since they are regulated. Add in confirmation bias growing stronger via echo chambers such as FB et al targeting to show you stuff you like only (to keep you around and keep you content) it simply builds on each other to provide you the information you want to hear/believe and as it's from multiple sources it has to be true after all.

All that coupled with the establishment and ownership of all media particularly in the UK. Information has been deweaponsied and replaced with agenda. THis is where the bbc have fallen so bizarrely and so far when they were usually on balance and accuracy as is their mission. None of their presenters or journalists are even now allowed have an opinion it has to be balanced. They have though somehow and That’s all gone south for them.

I’m no fan of Corbyn but I when he emerged I was immediately aware of a top down full on assault to takexhim down. The establishment wanted rid of him and deplatformed and they press were ruthless about it. And still are. I think he could have made great strides for change in Britain but it’s been years of just tearing Him apart daily in every medium has neutered any potential he had.
And again, I’m not a huge fan.

It is literally lords and elite elderly men smoking cigars and brandy that still runs that whole show over there, and it will continue to be. Until after a no deal brexit and the whole thing crashes down in a possibly violent way. And those fat cats and that establishment set up will somehow survive that, because ordinary Brits will always defer to their ‘betters’. It’s just how they are.

Christ that was rambly. Sorry.

Joe_ Public

I'd be worried that every negative story about Johnson between now and coronation day is going to add £xxbns to the national deficit. They'd be decades paying for it, if he even honoured half his promises.

Water John

Jeremy takes a risk with his opening, fair play to him. The contrast with Boris is massive but they won't see it.

Laois_Man

I dont understand Hunt's angle on matching Irish Corp Tax - "Landing an economic jumbo jet on Europe's doorstep forcing them to need us"....surely that would actually dissuade the EU from wanting to give the UK free access to its market?