Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Mezcita

First Up wrote: »

Too Fawlty Towers.

Touché! Well he's going to have do something creative if he wants to avoid being a prime minister who only lasts a few months.

Joe_ Public

Mezcita wrote: »

How about this? Boris seems fully aware of the potential loss of seats to the Conservatives if an election happens without the UK having left the EU. While asking for an extension immediately puts him in the same fire fighting situation which Mrs. May boxed herself into.

Therefore the UK (reluctantly) requests an extension from the EU. But Boris gets one of his minions to have a quiet word with the likes of Italy or Greece and asks them to object to an extension in return for some type of favourable deal to that country. As all EU states need to agree to a potential extension the UK is therefore out on the 31st of October.

That way the Brexit decision is fully out of the UK's hands and parliament can no longer do anything to stop it. Boris dodges the massively anti democratic bullet of proroguing parliament. Also cuts off the electoral threat of the Brexit party so that the Conservatives still have a fighting chance once another election happens. Tea and cucumber sandwiches on the 1st of November before all hell breaks loose.

Too Game of Thrones?

Could be far fetched but who knows? Johnson referring to a member of the 27 as "t*rds" could as well achieve all of the above without any need for the cloak and dagger stuff.

Here's another scenario of uncertain plausibility. A number of tory mps (say 10+) approach Theresa May and say they wont support Johnson for PM under current conditions. May approaches Johnson with this information and says unless he brings back WA before HOC with amendment to grant a 2nd ref, he wont have the support to become PM.

How likely is that? Probably not much, but i am quite certain that the leave side are not the only ones with a few possible tricks up their sleeve in this whole sordid affair.

lotmc

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

https://twitter.com/AdamHawkinsGB/status/1145350216893304832

And Farage has not named a single one of them. Trawling through their Facebook comments I imagine before they can actually tell us who they are.

I love the way that they show the English, Welsh, Scottish flags, and then the Irish tricolour!

Not very bright, these Brexiteers. Or maybe they just dont give a hoot about Ireland (north or south).

Stop moaning ffs

Boris in the radio already blaming the EU on whatever the outcome in October.

This is all so effin bizarre

ambro25

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Boris in the radio already blaming the EU on whatever the outcome in October.

This is all so effin bizarre

Beg to differ: this is all entirely predictable, and has been duly predicted for a good year at least.

What is bizarre, is the apparent apathy with which the British public continues to let all this carry on, 3 years on.

British politics have been snookered by the outcome of an advisory referendum ever since 24 June 2016, and there's still not one iota of common sense developing a breakout on the horizon, with about 4 months to go before the expiry of an existential-grade extension of time. That, for a modern western democracy like the UK, I find absolutely incredible.

It's as damning an indictment of democratic accountability, political awareness and average educational grade in the UK, as it's possible to get in this day and age.

farmchoice

ambro25 wrote: »

Beg to differ: this is all entirely predictable, and has been duly predicted for a good year at least.

What is bizarre, is the apparent apathy with which the British public continues to let all this carry on, 3 years on.

British politics have been snookered by the outcome of an advisory referendum ever since 24 June 2016, and there's still not one iota of common sense developing a breakout on the horizon, with about 4 months to go before the expiry of an existential-grade extension of time. That, for a modern western democracy like the UK, I find absolutely incredible.

It's as damning an indictment of democratic accountability, political awareness and average educational grade in the UK, as it's possible to get in this day and age.

im actually starting to think that this must all come back to some serious problem with the educational system.

Sam Russell

farmchoice wrote: »

im actually starting to think that this must all come back to some serious problem with the educational system.

Yes - it is all the fault of the low standards that apply at Eton.

Is there not something called 'An Eton Mess'?

Strazdas

ambro25 wrote: »

Beg to differ: this is all entirely predictable, and has been duly predicted for a good year at least.

What is bizarre, is the apparent apathy with which the British public continues to let all this carry on, 3 years on.

British politics have been snookered by the outcome of an advisory referendum ever since 24 June 2016, and there's still not one iota of common sense developing a breakout on the horizon, with about 4 months to go before the expiry of an existential-grade extension of time. That, for a modern western democracy like the UK, I find absolutely incredible.

It's as damning an indictment of democratic accountability, political awareness and average educational grade in the UK, as it's possible to get in this day and age.

It's crazy stuff. "There are probably years of economic hardship coming down the tracks, perhaps millions of job losses and the break up of the UK, but 52% of the public democratically voted for this to happen in an advisory referendum, so everything is fine and their wishes must be respected".

It's a government's job to protect the sane members of the public from such stupidity, not enable it.

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes - it is all the fault of the low standards that apply at Eton.

Is there not something called 'An Eton Mess'?

That's ironically a dessert:

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

It's crazy stuff. "There are probably years of economic hardship coming down the tracks, perhaps millions of job losses and the break up of the UK, but 52% of the public democratically voted for this to happen in an advisory referendum, so everything is fine and their wishes must be respected".

It's a government's job to protect the sane members of the public from such stupidity, not enable it.

Nobody voted for any particular form of Brexit. Not even 1%.

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Nobody voted for any particular form of Brexit. Not even 1%.

It looks like the British public have been brainwashed by their lying and corrupt media into thinking that the reversing of a referendum result would be the end of the world and the end of democracy in the UK.

As you say though, nobody in Britain can even agree on what Brexit is and what should be implemented. We now have the insane narrative developing that 17m people voted for No Deal.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

It looks like the British public have been brainwashed by their lying and corrupt media into thinking that the reversing of a referendum result would be the end of the world and the end of democracy in the UK.

As you say though, nobody in Britain can even agree on what Brexit is and what should be implemented. We now have the insane narrative developing that 17m people voted for No Deal.

Exactly. Even though recent polls show that only 33% would prefer a No Deal Brexit. But we mustn't forget that Johnson and Hunt aren't wooing the British electorate, just 260,000 Tories.

VinLieger

farmchoice wrote: »

im actually starting to think that this must all come back to some serious problem with the educational system.

While id love to believe this as the UK education system has reportedly been going down the sh1tter the last while, considering the demographics that voted for Brexit and continue to support it and its hard to put the blame on the education system, in fact young people overwhelmingly voted against it. Its much more the fault of the media simply telling people exactly what they want to hear and teaching them to be lazy when it comes to politics.

Joe_ Public

Strazdas wrote: »

It looks like the British public have been brainwashed by their lying and corrupt media into thinking that the reversing of a referendum result would be the end of the world and the end of democracy in the UK.

As you say though, nobody in Britain can even agree on what Brexit is and what should be implemented. We now have the insane narrative developing that 17m people voted for No Deal.

Thats so very true and those on the remain side need to get a bit more active in getting the truth out there. The UK may well now have no choice but to leave the EU if the latter refuses to facilitate them to their wishes, but as things stand, they don't HAVE TO leave the EU to fulfill some supposed democratic mandate that never actually existed in the first place. The remain side has lost momentum - tory leadership contest has sucked a lot of the oxygen out of whole debate - but i am certain it will regain the thread soon, particularly as no deal spectre looms.

marno21

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Exactly. Even though recent polls show that only 33% would prefer a No Deal Brexit. But we mustn't forget that Johnson and Hunt aren't wooing the British electorate, just 260,000 Tories.

I would like to see how much of that 33% is in favour of economic suicide or if they actually mean "no deal" as "no to May's deal".

lawred2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Exactly. Even though recent polls show that only 33% would prefer a No Deal Brexit. But we mustn't forget that Johnson and Hunt aren't wooing the British electorate, just 260,000 Tories.

that's still an absurdly high amount of people... 20m people... a lot of whom would in many other walks of life be considered rational sensible individuals. But Brexit just like pretty much like any rampant populist movement has become a cult.

But rampant populism is only something that happens to Germans.

robinph

ambro25 wrote: »

What is bizarre, is the apparent apathy with which the British public continues to let all this carry on, 3 years on.

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

There's also the bizarre world where a lot of people think no deal means things stay as they are.

I believe there was a poll a few months ago, and a few people here talking about it, that suggested that.

lawred2

robinph wrote: »

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

It hasn't? I would have thought it was long past that stage.

And now you have a leadership race between two lads trying to out 'no deal' each other..

Campaigning on how hard a Brexit they can achieve...

The only variety of 'fine' I hear is the delusional 'Mark Francois Dunkirk Spirit Stick it up the Bosh' type of 'fine'

Professor Moriarty

marno21 wrote: »

I would like to see how much of that 33% is in favour of economic suicide or if they actually mean "no deal" as "no to May's deal".

I've no doubt that many of them are zealots who would happily see a deep recessions so that they could "take back control". Many more are simply uninformed and just think that Johnson and Farage are great.

lawred2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I've no doubt that many of them are zealots who would happily see a deep recessions so that they could "take back control". Many more are simply uninformed and just think that Johnson and Farage are great.

There is no excuse for being uninformed three years after the referendum. At this stage you are willingly choosing to be so.

Stop moaning ffs

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

Professor Moriarty

lawred2 wrote: »

There is no excuse for being uninformed three years after the referendum. At this stage you are willingly choosing to be so.

If you wilfully refuse to inform yourself then you become a useful idiot.

robinph

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

When they were on about it before I think it would mean a new session is started, new Queens speach, then you can bring back the exact same WA bill again which was kicked out in the previous session.

That is why Bercow has delayed his stepping down as he would be the one who would allow then to stop that session of parliament and he's not going to let them mess with the rules like that.

Stop moaning ffs

robinph wrote: »

When they were on about it before I think it would mean a new session is started, new Queens speach, then you can bring back the exact same WA bill again which was kicked out in the previous session.

That is why Bercow has delayed his stepping down as he would be the one who would allow then to stop that session of parliament and he's not going to let them mess with the rules like that.

Right. Thank you.
That is acting the maggot if they do that.

volchitsa

lawred2 wrote: »

that's still an absurdly high amount of people... 20m people... a lot of whom would in many other walks of life be considered rational sensible individuals. But Brexit just like pretty much like any rampant populist movement has become a cult.

But rampant populism is only something that happens to Germans.

The Germans had some sort of excuse, with an inflation rate at hundreds of percent and so on. The British seem to have dreamt up their grievances mainly in their own heads. Or media.

VinLieger

robinph wrote: »

When they were on about it before I think it would mean a new session is started, new Queens speach, then you can bring back the exact same WA bill again which was kicked out in the previous session.

That is why Bercow has delayed his stepping down as he would be the one who would allow then to stop that session of parliament and he's not going to let them mess with the rules like that.

I actually think the idea is to prorogue close enough to October 31st so as they can simply get away with not convening a new session in time by artificially drawing out the negotiations of forming a new government to stop Parliament from allowing a no deal to happen.

robinph

lawred2 wrote: »

It hasn't? I would have thought it was long past that stage.

And now you have a leadership race between two lads trying to out 'no deal' each other..

Campaigning on how hard a Brexit they can achieve...

The only variety of 'fine' I hear is the delusional 'Mark Francois Dunkirk Spirit Stick it up the Bosh' type of 'fine'

Campaigning for a hard brexit, or a brexit in order to save the tory party is just versions of fine. There is no talk of needing to figure out a resolution and figure out what the UK want's, just that the EU will cave into something or other and no-deal is better than something else.

Stop moaning ffs

Wow. That almost sounds civil warlike

Sam Russell

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

Proroguing Parliament means closing the doors, ending the current session (which has been going on for two years - normally each session lasts one year), and not starting the next session until after Oct 31st when Brexit has already happened. With Parliament closed, no laws can be enacted, so the HoC remains silent. Now since No Deal Brexit is the default, it happens while the HoC is in recess, and nothing can be done about it to stop it.

However, the HoC could decide not to be shut down, and to pass legislation to change the default to be Revoke, then there is a constitutional crisis.

It is likely to be challenged in the courts if this is tried. Also legislation needs to be enacted to get No Deal to work and that will add to chaos if it does not happen.