Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Wow. That almost sounds civil warlike

Yup its a pretty disgusting tactic they are considering, ironically to give parliament its so called sovereignty back its not allowed have a say in anything.


The civil unrest if they tried such a maneuver from both sides could be catastrophic.

Strazdas

volchitsa wrote: »

The Germans had some sort of excuse, with an inflation rate at hundreds of percent and so on. The British seem to have dreamt up their grievances mainly in their own heads. Or media.

The bizarre thing about Brexit is it happened when the British economy was doing well and relations with the EU were fine. There was nothing even of note happening in 2016. It shows you how their media was well and truly stirring the pot.

trellheim

Proroguing - as I believe it meant - ends the session of Parliament - say till November, or whenever until it is recalled

While Parliament is out of session it cannot pass acts or motions or what-have-you.

While out of session the Government can do what it wishes within the law as it is the Executive, after all. All you need do for a no-deal is run the clock down as it is the default.

the idea here is that Parliament could not vote to stop a no-deal , as it would be out of session.

Note that the Queen prorogues (on the advice of the privy council) so an interesting time for the monarchy ( as it would be one constitutional crisis after another , without a written constitution ! )

VinLieger

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is likely to be challenged in the courts if this is tried. Also legislation needs to be enacted to get No Deal to work and that will add to chaos if it does not happen.

This is a key point that they are all apparently ignoring as well, just after the first deadline i believe May paused all no deal planning, all staff that were borrowed from other departments were sent back, and all the SI's required to be passed through parliament to take over from the equivalent EU legislation and regulations were basically forgotten about.

None of this has started up again from what I can tell and in the last few weeks theres been reports that the departments involved with Brexit planning have been loosing even more key staff hand over fist.

There is absolutely no chance they will be ready for a no deal brexit in any form, especially if it is forced through via prorogue and all the civil unrest and disruptions that would be involved.

trellheim

As of today 122 days to go.

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question but what does proroguing parliament mean? And what happens afterwards?

This video explains it quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpvMud16gC8

Igotadose

Strazdas wrote: »

The bizarre thing about Brexit is it happened when the British economy was doing well and relations with the EU were fine. There was nothing even of note happening in 2016. It shows you how their media was well and truly stirring the pot.

Media and shadowy actors (Arron Banks?)

Stop moaning ffs

trellheim wrote: »

Proroguing - as I believe it meant - ends the session of Parliament - say till November, or whenever until it is recalled

While Parliament is out of session it cannot pass acts or motions or what-have-you.

While out of session the Government can do what it wishes within the law as it is the Executive, after all. All you need do for a no-deal is run the clock down as it is the default.

the idea here is that Parliament could not vote to stop a no-deal , as it would be out of session.

Note that the Queen prorogues (on the advice of the privy council) so an interesting time for the monarchy ( as it would be one constitutional crisis after another , without a written constitution ! )

Just when you think brexit can’t get more bizarre, it finds a new level almost weekly.

Thanks for the info folks. Follow this thread and brexit avidly but the intricacies of the weirdness of Parliamentary procedure and British law is above my pay grade.

Strazdas

Igotadose wrote: »

Media and shadowy actors (Arron Banks?)

It does show the media played a big part. Brexit would be more understandable against the backdrop of a deep recession and hostile stand off with the EU. The fact that it happened when things were going well and relations with the EU were good suggests a huge amount of manipulation by the press.

Joe_ Public

There is, of course, a precedent for prorogation - it happened waaay back with Charles 1 in the 17th century. Lad ended up getting his head chopped off!

Personally, i very much doubt Hunt would be in any way serious about going this route, but i would be hedging my bets when it comes to the other fella. Not that i think Johnson would be stupid enough to think it would sort the brexit issue, but just think how many brownie points it would gain him with the hard right and, even, the admiration of the BP. If an election is to be a likely outcome of such maneuvering, then i can easily see the appeal for him.

trellheim

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just when you think brexit can’t get more bizarre, it finds a new level almost weekly.

Thanks for the info folks. Follow this thread and brexit avidly but the intricacies of the weirdness of Parliamentary procedure and British law is above my pay grade.

A similar process might occur here . If the Oireachtas is out of session the Government .... governs....

Prorogation is normal enough, happens every year.

Sam Russell

trellheim wrote: »

A similar process might occur here . If the Oireachtas is out of session the Government .... governs....

Prorogation is normal enough, happens every year.

Except it did not happen last year because May had a two year parliament. Also, normally it is not significant, but if it is done to force a No Deal against the obvious will of the HoC then that is a constitutional crisis. Last time someone lost their head. Expect something like that again.

Laois_Man

Also, when Proroguing parliment does happen at times other than a normal General Election, I believe it would typically happen at this time of the year - Not October!

Headshot

It would be a good drinking game the amount of times Hunt mentions starting up a business or being an entrepreneur

briany

The only answer for the Conservatives at this stage has to be another GE. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed answer, but the whole fiasco is predicated on the DUP being the balance holders, and the Conservatives and Labour being completely unwilling to find common ground. If the Cons could get a clear majority back, I think they could whip themselves into accepting the deal as it was offered back in 2017. If it 'backfired' and Labour got in, the Conservatives could somewhat escape the fallout from whatever happened next, be that a disastrous form of Brexit, second ref, or even revoke, and perhaps remain somewhat electable in the future. Even if the Cons had do a coalition with the Brexit party, I think they could sell a Brexit minus NI to their bases, given that their bases would be happy to lose NI altogether if it meant a Brexit for England, and the people of NI would be happy enough, since they voted to stay in, and NI business leaders look on it as a preferable situation to not being in the EU at all.

ambro25

robinph wrote: »

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

With respect: whatever you need to do. Keeping a roof on your head and food on the table is not exclusively a British thing, either.

A benign outcome for the Brexit crisis is, ultimately, the British public’s responsibility to deliver. Clearly, neither your politicians, nor your civil service, nor your media, nor your industries will solve it for you.

So either sort it for yourselves RTFN, while there’s still time, or live with whatever form the vested interests pushing it at the ass will give it for you all.

Because you won’t have the luxury of time, when enough of you cop on that this level of immediate danger is actually behind you already...and don’t expect too much tears from many of us who have already made our peace with seeing the back of you.

Call this tough love.

Professor Moriarty

If you want an insight into the soul of a typical, Tory MP, watch Maitlis eviscerating a slimey and unprincipled Damien Green on Newsnight. It's a must watch.

Strazdas

robinph wrote: »

What would you have us do?

It's not really yet got to the levels of immediate "danger" that would result in direct action and walkouts/ marches/ parades. At the moment the MP's whos job it is to sort this out are all telling us it will be some variety of fine, or the ones who are saying it won't be fine are not getting enough time at the microphone in order to rile us all up.

At the moment I'm not sure what level of disaster to expect, or what will trigger me to pick up a placard. Having to keep money coming in in the meantime, and childcare, does limit my ability to go and shout and wave sticks about at the moment.

The British government should cut out the nonsense about "democracy" and "democratic decision by the electorate". Now that it is evident that the referendum result will harm the UK, they have an absolute duty to protect the general public at all costs from a stupid electoral vote.

If they cannot tell the 52% they messed up, they have no business running a government or leading the country.

Zubeneschamali

lawred2 wrote: »

The only variety of 'fine' I hear is the delusional 'Mark Francois Dunkirk Spirit Stick it up the Bosh' type of 'fine'

We expect the Brexiteers to say it'll be fine.

The mad thing is all the remainers and all the people who didn't vote, who should by now know that it is not fine, it is an impending disaster, but who are sitting quietly at home while the Tories argue about who can destroy the UK in the most spectacular fashion so they can make them PM.

These are the people I don't understand - they seem to think nothing really bad can happen because its GREAT Britain, after all, mother of parliaments, it'll sort itself out, no need to make a fuss.

murphaph

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We expect the Brexiteers to say it'll be fine.

The mad thing is all the remainers and all the people who didn't vote, who should by now know that it is not fine, it is an impending disaster, but who are sitting quietly at home while the Tories argue about who can destroy the UK in the most spectacular fashion so they can make them PM.

These are the people I don't understand - they seem to think nothing really bad can happen because its GREAT Britain, after all, mother of parliaments, it'll sort itself out, no need to make a fuss.

IMO this describes the majority of remain voters. Only a small minority know it is going to be a total car crash. Even many remain voters think it would be wrong to revoke now after "the people have spoken". The vast bulk of the UK electorate is of the opinion that the UK will manage at least "OK" outside the EU. They simply don't understand how integrated the UK economy is within the structures of the EU. They don't get that most of their trade with non-EU countries is governed by EU FTAs and bilateral agreements. They simply think things will be "a bit bumpy" at worst. They don't understand that no major economy has ever done what they are about to do. They don't get the unprecedented nature of no deal Brexit.

Slowly but surely one must come to the conclusion that the only way the great British public will learn its true place in the world (as a major but not super-power economy, and heavily dependent on being a member of the world's largest trading bloc, like we all are in this club) is for the UK to experience life on the outside. It might be good for EU cohesion to see a major economy falter outside the club too. Many citizens across the EU take the union for granted and don't see the great benefits it brings to all our economies.

The one thing I can't stand is the new narrative that it will be because the EU wants to give the UK a punishment beating if the UK doesn't prosper. This is galling. The UK politicians expect the EU to hold their hand and assist them while they leave our club to become direct competition on our doorstep. They are aghast that the EU might say no to this idea.

Zubeneschamali

murphaph wrote: »

Slowly but surely one must come to the conclusion that the only way the great British public will learn its true place in the world (as a major but not super-power economy, and heavily dependent on being a member of the world's largest trading bloc, like we all are in this club) is for the UK to experience life on the outside.

Perhaps, but I think it is more likely that when No Deal Brexit is a disaster, the No Dealers will shift the blame to the EU and Ireland, as you note that are already laying the groundwork.


Then Remain/Rejoin will be even more traitorous than it is now, and the country will get ever more insular, ever more nationalist, ever more right wing. This path could lead to a very bad place indeed.

VinLieger

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you want an insight into the soul of a typical, Tory MP, watch Maitlis eviscerating a slimey and unprincipled Damien Green on Newsnight. It's a must watch.

Got a link?

First Up

Zubeneschamali wrote:

Perhaps, but I think it is more likely that when No Deal Brexit is a disaster, the No Dealers will shift the blame to the EU and Ireland, as you note that are already laying the groundwork.

They can "blame" whoever they like for all the difference it makes.

The UK decided to leave for entirely domestic political reasons; they have full responsibility for the consequences.

Tell me how

VinLieger wrote: »

Got a link?

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1145828099847786496?s=19


It's only destroying him if he admits he is wrong, or changes his mind.

He does neither, they are entirely immoral. They're not going on Newsnight to talk about Brexit, or their positions on it, they're auditioning for a job in Boris's government.

Professor Moriarty

Tell me how wrote: »

https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1145828099847786496?s=19


It's only destroying him if he admits he is wrong, or changes his mind.

He does neither, they are entirely immoral. They're not going on Newsnight to talk about Brexit, or their positions on it, they're auditioning for a job in Boris's government.

That's only a segment. The whole piece is about seven minutes. Might come up on YouTube. Well worth digging out. She basically exposed him as a craven liar. So he's amongst friends in the Johnson camp.

Tell me how

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's only a segment. The whole piece is about seven minutes. Might come up on YouTube. Well worth digging out. She basically exposed him as a craven liar. So he's amongst friends in the Johnson camp.

Follow on bits are on subsequent tweets. It's a 4 piece thread.

Professor Moriarty

First Up wrote: »

They can "blame" whoever they like for all the difference it makes.

The UK decided to leave for entirely domestic political reasons; they have full responsibility for the consequences.

Indeed. However, by blaming the EU, the Tories turn attention away from themselves and bolster their position as defenders of the UK. Power is much more mportant than truth.

Midlife

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. However, by blaming the EU, the Tories turn attention away from themselves and bolster their position as defenders of the UK. Power is much more mportant than truth.

Don't think that will wash. The backlash to the consequences of a no deal brexit will be brutal.

20silkcut

Tell me how wrote: »

Follow on bits are on subsequent tweets. It's a 4 piece thread.

The tweets underneath contain some gems well worth a read.

First Up

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. However, by blaming the EU, the Tories turn attention away from themselves and bolster their position as defenders of the UK. Power is much more mportant than truth.

That's an internal UK political squabble. Leave them at it.