Sram red 22 or dura ace

splanagan22

Building up a new sl6 tarmac

What groupset would you go for

Dura ace mechanical
Or
Ultegra di2
All disc

I’m currently on dura ace mechanical on the race bike and my previous bike had Ultegra di2. Don’t think the budget will stretch to dura ace di2 but I’d wait a little longer if it was really worth it.

Post edited as sram not available on disc mechanical

Miklos

Shimano all day every day. They've been at it a long time.

CramCycle

Dura Ace Mechanical

can you not mix and match?

go for DA cassette, crank and brakes, but use Ultegra shifters and mechs to keep the cost down? I believe all Di2 stuff is compatible, so if you wanted to upgrade a piece at a time, you could do.

that gives you Di2 shifting with as near as dammit the same weight as Dura Ace. in terms of performance, I have never been able to tell the difference (not that i have ridden Dura Ace Di2 that often)

splanagan22

Aegir wrote: »

can you not mix and match?

go for DA cassette, crank and brakes, but use Ultegra shifters and mechs to keep the cost down? I believe all Di2 stuff is compatible, so if you wanted to upgrade a piece at a time, you could do.

that gives you Di2 shifting with as near as dammit the same weight as Dura Ace. in terms of performance, I have never been able to tell the difference (not that i have ridden Dura Ace Di2 that often)

That was another plan of mine.
Quite possibly the best option.

fat bloke

Sram 22 and normal brakes.

Feck discs. Look at the giro. If the pros won't ride them for pay, why should you pay to ride them?!

2 Wheels Good

Aegir wrote: »

can you not mix and match?

go for DA cassette, crank and brakes, but use Ultegra shifters and mechs to keep the cost down? I believe all Di2 stuff is compatible, so if you wanted to upgrade a piece at a time, you could do.

that gives you Di2 shifting with as near as dammit the same weight as Dura Ace. in terms of performance, I have never been able to tell the difference (not that i have ridden Dura Ace Di2 that often)

Would the reverse not be better, Ultegra cassette, crank and brakes, but use DA shifters and mechs?

uncle-mofo

fat bloke wrote: »

Sram 22 and normal brakes.

Feck discs. Look at the giro. If the pros won't ride them for pay, why should you pay to ride them?!

Massively improved, all weather stopping power aside, being able to run nice carbon wheels all year round is great.

fat bloke

uncle-mofo wrote: »

Massively improved, all weather stopping power aside, being able to run nice carbon wheels all year round is great.

True, plus all that extra slowing and added weight is great training :pac::D

Statler

I've got Dura Ace Di2 and Ultegra r8000 on 2 different bikes, I'd honestly find it hard to justify the extra expense of Dura Ace mechanical, never mind Di2, over the Ultegra if I was buying a new bike (although I'm sure I'd do a good job of justifying it all the same).
Honestly though, my next 'good' bike will have Ultegra Di2, the weight savings on Dura Ace are impossible to justify for the cost, I havent used Ultegra Di2 but if the mechanical r8000 is anything to go by I'd happily go for it.

CramCycle

I have the mechanical Ultegra on my new bike, it is glorious, not sure why I would need anything else once it is set up right.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I'm still using 6800 on my good bike but I have been toying with the idea of upgrading it to Di2 recently but find it hard to justify it. Mechanical 6800 (and 8000) is so slick and works so well, I keep asking myself why I would bother changing it.

Saying that, once I get an idea in my head it usually does get stuck there until acted upon so I probably will do it at some stage over the summer. I've been watching Di2 groupsets on ebay and I could probably upgrade for around €300-400 (taking into account selling my own shifters and FD and RD to offset the initial cost)....I'm just not there yet.

LollipopJimmy

I've Ultegra Di2 and the shifting is super slick, it shifts like a well oiled rifle. I've recently ran Sram Force 22 and Ultegra 6800 mechanical, all well set up but the R8000 Di2 is so much slicker. I stayed with rim brakes, I find they are sufficient but I'm sure I'll make the shift to disc soon enough.

doozerie

There is no right or wrong answer here of course, the quality of bike parts at or near the top end are so good these days that you'll end up with a very effective groupset no matter which one you choose so it all comes down to the subtleties of personal preference/bias. Here are my biases:

* Sram vs Shimano - Shimano. I'm just not a fan of Sram's "double tap" and after several years of having it on my commute bike I like it less over time rather than more. I'd choose Campagnolo over Shimano though, particularly if it's not my own money I'm suggesting be spent

* Mechanical vs Electronic - Mechanical just edges it. I've had mechanical (Campag) for years, I've had electronic (Campag) since last year. I can't fault my mechanical Chorus and Record groupsets at all, they have been entirely reliable and on the very odd occasion (less than a handful over the years) that I've dropped a chain due to my own carelessness (e.g. changing front and back at exactly the same time and at a "bad" time), I've been able to recover the chain without having to stop the bike by mucking about with the levers.

Electronic (Super Record) has been very reliable too. I like the slightly reduced effort required to change gear - slightly less movement of my fingers and slightly less pressure required. As an extension of that, I like that I can change up a gear with my little finger while my hands are on the top of the bars (Campag -specific because of the thumb shifter) - no-one *needs* to be able to do that, I certainly don't, but the novelty of having the option appeals to me.

However, it slightly bothers me that I have to occasionally think about whether the battery needs charging, I work with computers every day and it feels like a (minor) intrusion into my hobby to have yet another computer on my bike. Plus, when I dropped the chain off my inner chainring recently for the first time (my own fault, I haven't bothered fitting a chain catcher yet and I shifted front and back at the very same time while on a climb), the electronic "brain" of the system kicked in and it refused to move either front or rear mech for a moment. Within seconds I had the chain back on without having to stop, but it was a reminder to me that with electronic there can be circumstances where you find yourself "fighting" the bike, whereas with mechanical I'm free to be as creative or stupid as I like.

I also don't look forward to the prospect of a time when my electronic groupset goes demented and requires some repair work at either the electronic or firmware level. It may never happen, but if it does I'll likely need to turn to an authorised dealer for help. As someone who likes being entirely self-reliant when it comes to bike maintenance, that's not a situation I'd like to find myself in.

* Disc vs Rim brakes - The best brakes I have are my Campag Record rim brakes, which are 10 years old now. They've never let me down either while riding on my own or racing in a group, in all sorts of conditions.

I've been brought down in a few race crashes over the years, but I'm convinced that disc brakes wouldn't have helped me avoid those because either the conditions dictated everything (wet roads, high speed, someone hit the deck right in front of me - locking my wheels, which I can already do with rim brakes but can just do a little more easily with disc brakes, isn't what I want in that situation as I don't want to lose grip between tyres and road), or because someone else dictated everything (several times I stopped before piling into a crash only to have some behind pile into me and take me down).

For me the appeal of disc brakes for my race bike would lie in being able to use carbon rims with consistent braking quality in all conditions, but that would be at the expense of the added weight that disc brakes impose, and given that saving weight is the main appeal of carbon rims in the first place that means that discs are not an obvious choice for me.

For my commute bike, Shimano rim brakes have always been perfectly adequate for me but discs have the appeal that my rims will last longer and since I don't care about the added weight there it's a fairly simple choice to go for discs.

My winter bike is where the decision is trickier. Added weight is perfectly acceptable to me on a training bike, and consistent braking modulation in all conditions is the appeal of discs there (plus longevity of rims, though I don't tend to wear out rims on my winter bike), but the cost of switching to discs is significant and is a huge hurdle. I'd also end up not being able to use my current (non-disc) PowerTap hub on my winter bike any longer, I wouldn't be able to swap wheels between race bike and winter bike, etc., all of which make the real cost of discs mount up for me. So high cost and inconvenience, for what I believe would be a modest improvement in braking (my Chorus rim brakes are quite good, not quite as good as my Record ones, but "good enough"), continue to rule out discs for me here for the moment.

terrydel

fat bloke wrote: »

Sram 22 and normal brakes.

Feck discs. Look at the giro. If the pros won't ride them for pay, why should you pay to ride them?!

Because they are miles better, from someone who was very cynical of them til I actually tried them.
They add maybe 500 grams as far as I'm aware, that'll never make the difference, training more or better will. And plenty of the pros are using them now.

tuxy

You would think the main advantage rim brakes has for the pros is how easy it is to perform a wheel change.

terrydel

Statler wrote: »

I've got Dura Ace Di2 and Ultegra r8000 on 2 different bikes, I'd honestly find it hard to justify the extra expense of Dura Ace mechanical, never mind Di2, over the Ultegra if I was buying a new bike (although I'm sure I'd do a good job of justifying it all the same).
Honestly though, my next 'good' bike will have Ultegra Di2, the weight savings on Dura Ace are impossible to justify for the cost, I havent used Ultegra Di2 but if the mechanical r8000 is anything to go by I'd happily go for it.

Ultegra di2 is great, and yes paying a few grand more for dura ace di2 is honestly nuts.

terrydel

doozerie wrote: »

However, it slightly bothers me that I have to occasionally think about whether the battery needs charging, I work with computers every day and it feels like a (minor) intrusion into my hobby to have yet another computer on my bike. .

This is exactly the reason I was reluctant to go with electronic gears when I got my new bike recently. I also work in IT, and frankly outside of work I have no interest in it or technology at all. I cycle to get away from all that, and also hate that practically everything these days has to be plugged in and charged.
But I was convinced it was worth going for and I'm glad I did.

koutoubia

In reality you get a very long time out of electronic groupsets before the need charging.
I watched my shifting and battery level on EPS and for 10% battery usage I got around 90 front shifts and 600 rear shifts .
That was around Paddy's Day.
Put the thought of charging to the back of my mind . Decided to check it again this time last week and was at 50%.

doozerie

terrydel wrote: »

Because they are miles better, from someone who was very cynical of them til I actually tried them.
They add maybe 500 grams as far as I'm aware, that'll never make the difference, training more or better will. And plenty of the pros are using them now.

It's not a case of rim/disc brakes being better, few things are as simple as that. You may well find disc brakes better, miles better even, that's fair enough, but that doesn't mean that everyone will. Just like my preferring my rim brakes (which are significantly better than the disc brakes on my commuter, incidentally) doesn't automatically make them better than disc brakes.

Cycling has a long history of pitting one option against the other and it just creates pointless and stupid arguments over which is "better". Shimano vs Campag (vs Sram). Mechanical vs electronic. 700C vs 650B. Drop bars vs straight bars. Single chainring vs double chainrings (vs triple chainrings). 9sp vs 10sp vs 11sp vs 12sp. Steel vs Aluminium vs Carbon. Square taper vs Octalink vs Ultra torque vs Power torque vs Over torque vs BB30 vs .... On and on, and on, and on.

Personally I don't care which is "better" for anyone else, I care about which is best for me, in my circumstances, and with my requirements. No matter what I choose, there will be people that will consider their choices "better". That's fine, that's why choice is good because everyone's tastes and requirements differ. But inevitably it gets turned into some kind of argument over which choices are "better" or, more specifically, who is "right". What a waste of energy.

If there was a true "better" option in all cases then we'd all be riding the same manufacturer's frameset, with the same geometry, the same components, the same size wheels, the same tyres, etc. We don't, because everyone's requirements (and circumstances) are specific and personal to them. We can either accept that and move on, or we can churn out the same tedious arguments time and time again, which didn't win the same argument last time and won't win it this time either. We really should all just stop focusing so much on other peoples's choices.

As for the pros, they ride what they are given, maybe a handful of top tier riders across all teams get to pick and choose certain aspect of their bikes or kit, but the vast majority have no choice. Maybe lots of riders asked for disc brakes or maybe certain manufacturers (e.g Specialized) are determined to move the market towards disc and oblige their sponsored teams to ride discs as part of what is basically a (very effective) marketing campaign. Who knows. And who cares to be honest, personally I've no desire to change my bikes every few years as the trend of pro teams changes yet again.

terrydel

doozerie wrote: »

It's not a case of rim/disc brakes being better, few things are as simple as that. You may well find disc brakes better, miles better even, that's fair enough, but that doesn't mean that everyone will. Just like my preferring my rim brakes (which are significantly better than the disc brakes on my commuter, incidentally) doesn't automatically make them better than disc brakes.

Cycling has a long history of pitting one option against the other and it just creates pointless and stupid arguments over which is "better". Shimano vs Campag (vs Sram). Mechanical vs electronic. 700C vs 650B. Drop bars vs straight bars. Single chainring vs double chainrings (vs triple chainrings). 9sp vs 10sp vs 11sp vs 12sp. Steel vs Aluminium vs Carbon. Square taper vs Octalink vs Ultra torque vs Power torque vs Over torque vs BB30 vs .... On and on, and on, and on.

Personally I don't care which is "better" for anyone else, I care about which is best for me, in my circumstances, and with my requirements. No matter what I choose, there will be people that will consider their choices "better". That's fine, that's why choice is good because everyone's tastes and requirements differ. But inevitably it gets turned into some kind of argument over which choices are "better" or, more specifically, who is "right". What a waste of energy.

If there was a true "better" option in all cases then we'd all be riding the same manufacturer's frameset, with the same geometry, the same components, the same size wheels, the same tyres, etc. We don't, because everyone's requirements (and circumstances) are specific and personal to them. We can either accept that and move on, or we can churn out the same tedious arguments time and time again, which didn't win the same argument last time and won't win it this time either. We really should all just stop focusing so much on other peoples's choices.

As for the pros, they ride what they are given, maybe a handful of top tier riders across all teams get to pick and choose certain aspect of their bikes or kit, but the vast majority have no choice. Maybe lots of riders asked for disc brakes or maybe certain manufacturers (e.g Specialized) are determined to move the market towards disc and oblige their sponsored teams to ride discs as part of what is basically a (very effective) marketing campaign. Who knows. And who cares to be honest, personally I've no desire to change my bikes every few years as the trend of pro teams changes yet again.

Jesus man, calm down. Waste of energy indeed.

doozerie

terrydel wrote: »

Jesus man, calm down. Waste of energy indeed.

I'm not sure why you assume my post wasn't written calmly, but it was.

And my name isn't Jesus.

terrydel

doozerie wrote: »

I'm not sure why you assume my post wasn't written calmly, but it was.

And my name isn't Jesus.

Well my opinion that discs are miles better inspired a hell of a rant there dude.
Nobody ****s with the jesus eh

doozerie

terrydel wrote: »

Well my opinion that discs are miles better inspired a hell of a rant there dude.
Nobody ****s with the jesus eh

So "they are miles better" is expressing an opinion whereas my questioning such a definitive statement is a rant? You are really just proving my point.

magicbastarder

terrydel wrote: »

Waste of energy indeed.

to be fair, braking is quite literally a waste of energy.

terrydel

doozerie wrote: »

So "they are miles better" is expressing an opinion whereas my questioning such a definitive statement is a rant? You are really just proving my point.

And you really, really are proving mine :P:P

Weepsie

Please be civil and back on topic folks.

letape

doozerie wrote: »

It's not a case of rim/disc brakes being better, few things are as simple as that. You may well find disc brakes better, miles better even, that's fair enough, but that doesn't mean that everyone will. Just like my preferring my rim brakes (which are significantly better than the disc brakes on my commuter, incidentally) doesn't automatically make them better than disc brakes.

Cycling has a long history of pitting one option against the other and it just creates pointless and stupid arguments over which is "better". Shimano vs Campag (vs Sram). Mechanical vs electronic. 700C vs 650B. Drop bars vs straight bars. Single chainring vs double chainrings (vs triple chainrings). 9sp vs 10sp vs 11sp vs 12sp. Steel vs Aluminium vs Carbon. Square taper vs Octalink vs Ultra torque vs Power torque vs Over torque vs BB30 vs .... On and on, and on, and on.

Personally I don't care which is "better" for anyone else, I care about which is best for me, in my circumstances, and with my requirements. No matter what I choose, there will be people that will consider their choices "better". That's fine, that's why choice is good because everyone's tastes and requirements differ. But inevitably it gets turned into some kind of argument over which choices are "better" or, more specifically, who is "right". What a waste of energy.

If there was a true "better" option in all cases then we'd all be riding the same manufacturer's frameset, with the same geometry, the same components, the same size wheels, the same tyres, etc. We don't, because everyone's requirements (and circumstances) are specific and personal to them. We can either accept that and move on, or we can churn out the same tedious arguments time and time again, which didn't win the same argument last time and won't win it this time either. We really should all just stop focusing so much on other peoples's choices.

As for the pros, they ride what they are given, maybe a handful of top tier riders across all teams get to pick and choose certain aspect of their bikes or kit, but the vast majority have no choice. Maybe lots of riders asked for disc brakes or maybe certain manufacturers (e.g Specialized) are determined to move the market towards disc and oblige their sponsored teams to ride discs as part of what is basically a (very effective) marketing campaign. Who knows. And who cares to be honest, personally I've no desire to change my bikes every few years as the trend of pro teams changes yet again.

doozerie - great post. This should the first response to every “disc brake / rim brake - which is better thread”. There must be one of these threads every week. Same with “mechanical / electronic gearing - which is better”...

my partner called it how it is when we were watching the racing recently and a disc break bike with a flat was being swapped for a new bike. "Oh look another 15k euro puncture"