Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

Kramer

Simple options;
Charge me:
Per minute or
Per kWh

September1

Per kWh

What if someone prefers both at same time?

slave1

It's not as simple as this, per minute will punish those with EV's that take slower DC, per kw will not encourage charged or those EVs throttling end stage charge to vacate the charge spot and leave.

Answer has to be c) Hybrid charging convention

grogi

Per kWh

Per minute with increasing rate at DC (exp. start at 25c/min, increasing to 50c/Mon after 15 mins and €1/min after next 15 mins). That way you can top-up cheaply if you need it (30 mins at the charger would cost you €11), but charger blockers would pay premium.

Per kWh at AC chargers.

We should charge for what is sparse. We have enough electricity, but far too few DC chargers.

Nedved85

Per kWh up to a threshold then start changing based on time.

MrMusician18

A tax of somewhere between 25c to 50c per kwh should be levied on users. This could be used to find the rollout of an expanded network

Scottie99

MrMusician18 wrote: »

A tax of somewhere between 25c to 50c per kwh should be levied on users. This could be used to find the rollout of an expanded network

How about a tax ICE fuel to further the roll out? Know doubt it wouldn’t be popular.

jimmycrackcorm

Per kWh

Scottie99 wrote: »

How about a tax ICE fuel to further the roll out? Know doubt it wouldn’t be popular.

That's an example of an effective green policy for carbon taxes
People can't revolt to much of you say we're going up carbon taxes but putting that money directly back into better charging infrastructure as part of the response to our declared collate emergency.

jimmycrackcorm

Per kWh

Anyway. It has to be put minute charging over kWh simply because it's a limited shared facility and utilisation should be provided for as many users as possible

Johnboy1951

Per Kw ...... it is sale of electrical energy, so charge for the energy taken.

Charge a base rate up to a battery charge level .... say 80% ...... and then hike up the price for those hogging the charger, regardless the speed of charge.

This does not punish those who cannot afford those vehicles with super chargers any more than it does those who can.

unkel

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Per Kw ...... it is sale of electrical energy

It's not. It's the sale of a service. The service of fast charging.

At home you drink a glass of coke and it costs you €0.30c. If you are out and about and want to sit down somewhere comfortable and warm and drink a cold coke, the restaurant / cafe will charge you €3

Kramer

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

It's not. It's the sale of a service.

Is purchasing petrol or diesel in a forecourt purchasing a service too then?
Similar expensive infrastructure, underground tanks, pumps, staff etc., plus huge taxation

Energy is a commodity, be it fossil fuels or electricity.

By all means recoup the capital expenditure for the infrastructure & maintainence of fast chargers, but charging many, many multiples of the wholesale cost of electricity while the margin on fossil fuels is mere cents, seems crazy to me .

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Is purchasing petrol or diesel in a forecourt purchasing a service too then?

It would be if each pump cost €100k to install and it would take 45 minutes to fill up.

Johnboy1951

unkel wrote: »

It's not. It's the sale of a service. The service of fast charging.

At home you drink a glass of coke and it costs you €0.30c. If you are out and about and want to sit down somewhere comfortable and warm and drink a cold coke, the restaurant / cafe will charge you €3

The €3 cost is to cover overheads and (exorbitant IMO) profit margin ...... they could hardly allow people to serve themselves!

I have never been charged extra for dallying at a table and not drinking or eating quickly, which is the equivalent of the alternative suggestion for charging.

It is selling energy similar to the sale of ICE fuel as has been pointed out.

Yes some forecourts charged a bit extra because they had staff to dispense the fuel and take the payment etc.
That was service.
There is no such service at charge points.

creedp

unkel wrote: »

It's not. It's the sale of a service. The service of fast charging.

At home you drink a glass of coke and it costs you €0.30c. If you are out and about and want to sit down somewhere comfortable and warm and drink a cold coke, the restaurant / cafe will charge you €3

Yea but you can instead just go to a Spar and buy it for a €1 ... a reasonable comparison with EV charging could be charging a premium for the 150kw super chargers (i.e. restaurant prices) but charging a reasonable price for the std 50kw ones (i.e. Spar prices)

unkel

creedp wrote: »

a reasonable comparison with EV charging could be charging a premium for the 150kw super chargers (i.e. restaurant prices) but charging a reasonable price for the std 50kw ones (i.e. Spar prices)

Agreed. That's why I suggested in my response to the ESB to keep slow chargers free and only charge for fast chargers. Maybe a further split out then. How about 35c/minute for 50kW chargers and 60c/minute for 175kW/350kW chargers? And a monthly sub of say €25 but much lower per minute rates for apartment dwellers?

MrMusician18

Scottie99 wrote: »

How about a tax ICE fuel to further the roll out? Know doubt it wouldn’t be popular.

Why should the rest of the country fund what are essentially greenwashed toys for the wealthy middle classes?

unkel

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why should the rest of the country fund what are essentially greenwashed toys for the wealthy middle classes?

You prefer it if we keep using cancerous diesel cars and pay huge emissions fines ad perpetuum or that we leave this place to our children in a cleaner state?

kanuseeme

Incentives will encourage people to stop using cancerous diesel cars, why not divert early,the emission fines into more chargers now and let them free,

to combat locals, maybe have chargers blocked near you and only chargers further a field usable.

honestly I think its mad to charge for charging at some of the rates, it would not pay me to do it. it will be more cancerous product from me if it happens.

MrMusician18

unkel wrote: »

You prefer it if we keep using cancerous diesel cars and pay huge emissions fines ad perpetuum or that we leave this place to our children in a cleaner state?

Any you really think encouraging consumerism, and incentivising people to buy more is the way to achieve that. Would it not be better if the transition was gradual instead of forcing all the legacy vehicles with their sunk carbon cost off the road prematurely? And in a gradual transition, users can fund their own network.

The private car in the transport sector is a much smaller proportion of emissions than most people realise anyway. It's the pervasiveness of the car (what you can see is what you think is important) that makes people think they have a much greater impact than they actually do.

cruizer101

unkel wrote: »

You prefer it if we keep using cancerous diesel cars and pay huge emissions fines ad perpetuum or that we leave this place to our children in a cleaner state?

I'd prefer if there was more encouragement to keep cars on the road longer rather than the current trend of regularly replacing cars resulting in perfectly fine cars getting scrapped just because they are old. However the vrt pot is far too big for the government to consider anything along thay line.

While I do agree there should be encouragement towards electric vehicles there has to be a balance between carrot and stick approach.
And if you are going to use the stick, more tax on fossil fuels, the network needs to be there for those you expect to move over.
It is a bit catch 22, where do you get the money from to upgrade network but you can't expect people to change in droves till it is there.

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. That's why I suggested in my response to the ESB to keep slow chargers free and only charge for fast chargers. Maybe a further split out then. How about 35c/minute for 50kW chargers and 60c/minute for 175kW/350kW chargers? And a monthly sub of say €25 but much lower per minute rates for apartment dwellers?

Agree with a split tariff in favour of lower powered chargers but the €25 monthly subscription would be prohibitive for people who may not use FCPS every month.

MrMusician18

creedp wrote: »

Agree with a split tariff in favour of lower powered chargers but the €25 monthly subscription would be prohibitive for people who may not use FCPS every month.

The people you are trying to convert pay more than €25 every time they fill with petrol/diesel.

The only reason for opposition to this kind of model is that EV drivers do not want to pay their fair share for the shared road infrastructure and their own charging network.

It's like the opposition to water charges, however those opposing for paying for this are a distinctly sanctimonious, sandal wearing, tofu eating opposition.

Sabre Man

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why should the rest of the country fund what are essentially greenwashed toys for the wealthy middle classes?

Everybody benefits from clean air. With a better infrastructure and more choice of EVs, more people will buy EVs, which means the less wealthy can buy a used EV sooner rather than later.

MrMusician18

Sabre Man wrote: »

Everybody benefits from clean air. With a better infrastructure and more choice of EVs, more people will buy EVs, which means the less wealthy can buy a used EV sooner rather than later.

No one benefits from congestion, which is what the end result of cheap to run private transport will be.

grogi

Per kWh

creedp wrote: »

Agree with a split tariff in favour of lower powered chargers but the €25 monthly subscription would be prohibitive for people who may not use FCPS every month.

Use frequently - get subscription and reduced rates.
Not use often - no subscription...

Sabre Man

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No one benefits from congestion, which is what the end result of cheap to run private transport will be.

While that's true, EV congestion is better than ICE congestion. Urban congestion can be solved by providing better and cheaper public transport, while using tolls to deter car use.

kanuseeme

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

Incentives will encourage people to stop using cancerous diesel cars, why not divert early,the emission fines into more chargers now and let them free,

to combat locals, maybe have chargers blocked near you and only chargers further a field usable.

honestly I think its mad to charge for charging at some of the rates, it would not pay me to do it. it will be more cancerous product from me if it happens.

In my opinion the notion that public chargers are there to save you money is a really bad one and result in the situation where you are almost guaranteed not be able to use one when you need it. Most of your charging should be done at home or work where you are responsible for providing a charger for your use. The cost on driving on electricity is so low that you are guaranteed to save money by using an EV. You can drive 20000 kilometers a year on night rate electricity for a price of a few tanks of fuel. That's seriously cheap.

Whenever there is free charging, the system gets abused as we have seen in Ireland. Locals should hardly ever have need to use the DC chargers anyway and in case they need them after the commute for example to get somewhere else in a hurry, pricing at "restaurant prices" should be the norm to keep the queues short. And the chargers should be installed where it's convenient to access them when passing through/by the area.

For local and destination charging there should just be banks of AC charging points situated conveniently near the shops cinemas restaurants. These should be priced around the same as it would cost to charge at home and would be plenty for PHEV drivers and ones without their own chargers. But even they should be slighlty more expensive than charging at home/work to ensure that they are not used just because they are there but because you need to use them. For PHEV users these would save on petrol/diesel and for BEV user they would allow enough charge for their return leg to whereever they are coming from. A small charge would ensure you have access to them when you need them.

creedp

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The people you are trying to convert pay more than €25 every time they fill with petrol/diesel.

The only reason for opposition to this kind of model is that EV drivers do not want to pay their fair share for the shared road infrastructure and their own charging network.

It's like the opposition to water charges, however those opposing for paying for this are a distinctly sanctimonious, sandal wearing, tofu eating opposition.

We'll see how diesel drivers react to equalising the petrol and diesel duty at the next election which must happen now following the 'green wave'. How would such opposition be described?

MrMusician18

creedp wrote: »

We'll see how diesel drivers react to equalising the petrol and diesel duty at the next election which must happen now following the 'green wave'. How would such opposition be described?

The green puddle more like.

If course people will feel rightly angered by diesel being taxed again. They bought into the system created by the glasraí the last time they were in office, leading to the scrapping of hundreds of thousands of perfectly serviceable petrol cars that suddenly became expensive to run at great carbon cost to the environment as well as monetary cost to the individual.

And the will do it to EVs in ten years time again, when they find some sort of environmental issue with them.

LeBash

Per kWh

Charging out per 5 min block would be the way to go imho. Need to keep people rotating at the chargers

n97 mini

Per kWh

creedp wrote: »

We'll see how diesel drivers react to equalising the petrol and diesel duty at the next election which must happen now following the 'green wave'. How would such opposition be described?

Even the Green Party are saying equalise the duty over 5 years, as the government was advised to do in the past. 2.2c per year until the 11c gap is made up.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If course people will feel rightly angered by diesel being taxed again.

Diesel is odd in that it's under taxed, or just not as over taxed as petrol, depending on your POV. It has always been like this, but should never have been. I'm not sure why, possibly a sop to the rural lobby.

kanuseeme

I have filled my car 3 times, since I got it, I have done 320 km since the last fill and its still full, my old hybrid running on self charging fluid, would be at 75%, I find it about 20% less efficient on a run up to Dublin depending on season but fantastic on my average week .

I don't care about a fast charge fee, I don't care what other people drive, I feel sorry for the poor sod's stuck at a charger waiting for their turn, be it a phev, a local, what ever you imagine it is causing the problem. Being dependant on fast chargers is not my cup of tea. I would suggest to anyone buy a car that suits them better than that and they can continue on without any worry.

Diesel I believe will get a hike at some stage, my best bet is road tax first, then tax on fuels, and then there will be a mad rush to buy anything electric.

There are not enough chargers, I have suggested ways to maximise usage of chargers, but to think that phev drivers and locals are the cause of chargers being hogged is nonsense, they can only use so much, and when full they are gone. I will accept idiots who leave their car unattended.

The government is going to start paying emission fines at some point in the future and we will all be paying for that in our taxes, so if you want that, then be it.

If you want to get 150 kw into your car in 20 minutes use ionity or tesla and pay for it. If the government wants to reduce emissions then more fast chargers are needed surely 50kw chargers are cheaper than 150kw.
Encourage people to use it as much as possible, to start charging for charging, they will not use the network until there is an incentive to do so, i.e it is cheaper than diesel or petrol.

when there are Q's at petrol pumps they install more or another station opens up, but to think that freeing up fast chargers is the answer is wrong.

Investment is needed, Incentives are needed, planning is needed, 87 fast chargers on this island is ridiculous . how can you expect any one to buy an E.V. with that low number.

I agree at some stage, they should bring in charging, but with so low number of cars and chargers now, you would kill the advance of E.V's into this country.

I will go E.V with the right type of car and at the price I want to pay.

I am asking that the fines the government will be paying to be put into more chargers now to help this country switch to E.V's.

Johnboy1951

+1 @kanuseeme

All this talk of moving people on from chargers is only pertinent because there are not enough chargers for the small few who want to use them presently.

That implies to me that a very large number of chargers are needed if the gov want most drivers to move to BEV.

Fix the charger situation and the delays disappear along with the majority of reasons for special time limits etc etc!

kanuseeme

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

+1 @kanuseeme

All this talk of moving people on from chargers is only pertinent because there are not enough chargers for the small few who want to use them presently.

That implies to me that a very large number of chargers are needed if the gov want most drivers to move to BEV.

Fix the charger situation and the delays disappear along with the majority of reasons for special time limits etc etc!

If a petrol car can fill up in 5 minutes then, it would have to be at least 5 x of the present number of fuel pumps, then there is range, how many times would you need to charge a leaf to get the same range as a diesel car, so then multiply that to get the final number.

I know faster charging will reduce the number, to really really start the ball rolling incentives and more fast chargers.

I forgot to include home charging, that would reduce the number, but in all fairness, one fast charger and 5 x 3.7 kw A.C at Dublin airport says it all really.

n97 mini

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

I am asking that the fines the government will be paying to be put into more chargers now to help this country switch to E.V's.

The fines are based on total emissions and we're an oddity in that we're producing enough beef/dairy to feed 40 million people, so our emissions from agriculture are way higher than they are from transport. I'd rather the money be put into incentivising farmers to just grow something else (wheat, barley, apples, sugar beet etc etc etc). If we reduced the herd size to a point where our herd was big enough to just feed ourselves, it'd be the equivalent of taking every car (including EVs), bus and truck off the road, *and* closing a few fossil fuel power stations.

kanuseeme

Ok fine with the fines, forget about the fast chargers then, we will ride the cows around and make full use of them, cannot wait for the thread on charging for riding or some such.

Will we reduce our herd size ?

there is more to consider than emissions, if we reduce our dependence on oil would that not be a good thing?

Black_Knight

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

If a petrol car can fill up in 5 minutes then, it would have to be at least 5 x of the present number of fuel pumps, then there is range, how many times would you need to charge a leaf to get the same range as a diesel car, so then multiply that to get the final number.

I know faster charging will reduce the number, to really really start the ball rolling incentives and more fast chargers.

I forgot to include home charging, that would reduce the number, but in all fairness, one fast charger and 5 x 3.7 kw A.C at Dublin airport says it all really.

A crucial thing to forget. Charging at home means you won't be filling up at "the pumps", so much less need for as many charging stations as petrol pumps.
I'd concede there will probably be "busy periods" at the chargers. ie. midday and evening times when everyone has been on the road and away from their home charger, but if your daily use means you need a fast charger, you've picked the wrong tool (car) for the job. Certainly at the moment, EVs are not for everyone.

liamog

Per kWh

I posted this on Facebook but it fits here.

In functioning European markets, home charging accounts for around 90% of EV usage. If we approximate there are 5,000 EVs in Ireland with an average annual mileage of 17,000km and an efficiency of 16kWh/100km then weekly rapid charge energy requirement should be around 26,000 kWh. If an average charge is 20kWh that's 1,300 charging events per week. We have about 70 rapid charges so that means each one should be used around 18.5 times per week or 2.6 times per day.

Our rapid charge infrastructure is used significantly more than that, implying that it is being over utilised. Likely due to a combination of people who could charge at home but choose not to, and its possible we also have a high number of users who can't charge at home.

Calahonda52

Any more clarity on when the charging regime will actually come into being?

McGiver

kanuseeme wrote:

Investment is needed, Incentives are needed, planning is needed, 87 fast chargers on this island is ridiculous . how can you expect any one to buy an E.V. with that low number.

Just to compare, Czech Republic which is roughly the same area as Ireland, albeit twice as population, but 4 times less EVs, has 190 fast chargers. Prague only has like 50 of them. Roughly same population and area as Dublin which has like what.. 10 chargers?

unkel

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

To be fair Irish people, in continuing to drive ICE cars, are part funding this Norwegian miracle. The more we (and other countries) switch to EVs the less ability to poor Norwegian will have to continue to develop their EV infrastructure!!

September1

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

I think that more than one, there is one Ionity, one easygo and couple Tesla's SCs.

unkel

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

They need all the chargers due to the large number of registered electric vehicles. They had just over 200 000 pure BEVs at the end of the 2018. So roughly 1 rapid charging site per 100 vehicles. Also it can be up to over 1900 km drive between two major cities (Tromso-Stavanger) so they are needed on long trips over there..

The current Irish situation is pretty much the same ratio of cars per charging site. But the multiple chargers per site is very bad here. Also, as the EV sales are accelerating the network is getting less adequate every passing month. Wonder how many 192 registrations we will have this month?

Need to get the charging for charging going soon to cater for network expansion.

kanuseeme

samih wrote: »

They need all the chargers due to the large number of registered electric vehicles. They had just over 200 000 pure BEVs at the end of the 2018. So roughly 1 rapid charging site per 100 vehicles. Also it can be up to over 1900 km drive between two major cities (Tromso-Stavanger) so they are needed on long trips over there..

The current Irish situation is pretty much the same ratio of cars per charging site. But the multiple chargers per site is very bad here. Also, as the EV sales are accelerating the network is getting less adequate every passing month. Wonder how many 192 registrations we will have this month?

Need to get the charging for charging going soon to cater for network expansion.

What is the cost of charging in Norway? Any one know how many destination chargers they have?

No point putting in rapid chargers, if people are using them as a destination charger, I would like to see a few destination chargers beside/close to rapid chargers,

Reading this, https://www.thejournal.ie/electric-car-charging-points-4577464-Apr2019/

They plan to upgrade some 22kW sites to 50 k rapid chargers, will they replace those destination chargers?

grogi

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

What is the cost of charging in Norway? Any one know how many destination chargers they have?

No point putting in rapid chargers, if people are using them as a destination charger, I would like to see a few destination chargers beside/close to rapid chargers,

Reading this, https://www.thejournal.ie/electric-car-charging-points-4577464-Apr2019/

They plan to upgrade some 22kW sites to 50 k rapid chargers, will they replace those destination chargers?

AC chargers are around every corner. Total of around 12000 connections in 2019.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/696548/number-of-electric-car-charging-stations-in-norway-by-type/

ted1

Nedved85 wrote: »

Per kWh up to a threshold then start changing based on time.

There is a fixed cost associated with providing the infrastructure, the energy use is variable.

x+y= price
X= price per minute for infrastructure costs
y=kWh

kanuseeme

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

What is the cost of charging in Norway

With Fortum which I have myself used in Sweden/Finland it costs normally around 0.20/min or equivalent at 50 kW chargers and this means 20 minutes connected is 4 yoyo. I think I saw 2 NOK/min mentioned somewhere so roughly the same price. Ionity is 80 NOK/80 SEK/8 YOYO everywhere at the moment fixed price.

I found the destination chargers largely bad value on my travels last summer on a car that charges at 6.6 kW but would have been ok with some other cars with up to 22 kW onboard chargers. But there were many totally free ones also around.

Round Cable

samih wrote: »

Need to get the charging for charging going soon to cater for network expansion.

Apparently ESB eCars will shortly announce rapid charge pricing, it should substantially free up the network.

kanuseeme

samih wrote: »

With Fortum which I have myself used in Sweden/Finland it costs normally around 0.20/min or equivalent at 50 kW chargers and this means 20 minutes connected is 4 yoyo. I think I saw 2 NOK/min mentioned somewhere so roughly the same price. Ionity is 80 NOK/80 SEK/8 YOYO everywhere at the moment fixed price.

I found the destination chargers largely bad value on my travels last summer on a car that charges at 6.6 kW but would have been ok with some other cars with up to 22 kW onboard chargers. But there were many totally free ones also around.

The bad value destination charger included parking by any chance?

Putting my self into a Norwegian outlander hogging pest mindset, 4 euro gets me 2.3 litres of petrol @ 1.73 euro = 37 km in an outlander, 20 mins would give me around 35 kms but in urban driving I believe I would get more. Cost neutral for me,