Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

kanuseeme

Round Cable wrote: »

Apparently ESB eCars will shortly announce rapid charge pricing, it should substantially free up the network.

you think? Announcing and implementing are 2 different things, any way it will not make any difference till there is more chargers and when is that going to happen?

I would imagine its terrible in Dublin in the evenings with only one charger and an old leaf sucking away in single digit KwH's

kanuseeme

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

The bad value destination charger include parking by any chance?

Usually you would pay for both but often parking is free overnight after 5/6 pm until the next morning. But you would have to come to unplug the car when it's near fully charged as the destination chargers were something like say 0.50 kr/minute so 3 yoyo per hour and if you left the car plugged overnight for 10 hours it would be really expensive. Not surprisingly we were the only people using them but they were near the hotel so convenient and when travelling with an EV any charger is good at almost any price. But an unmonitored socket for granny charger is even better.

Somewhere like Belgium the charging was affordable i.e. low enough price billed per kWh for overnight parking and the parking charge itself also good. Holland was also great in this respect and parking at public transport hub also included a tram ticket at a nominal cost which makes a lot of sense.

McGiver

unkel wrote:

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

My point was that even less developed EV market has 8 times more FCPs per EV on the same area. No point comparing with more developed EV markets, it's just embarrassing

daheff

Nedved85 wrote: »

Per kWh up to a threshold then start changing based on time.

Easy to get around that...when you are near the time threshold..plug out... reset & plug back in

grogi

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

Based on the data I've seen, I don't believe there are 2000 locations, but 2000 stalls in Norway. They certainly don't have ~500 supercharger locations...

Black_Knight

Per kWh

daheff wrote: »

Easy to get around that...when you are near the time threshold..plug out... reset & plug back in

Not if done right. The threshold should be based on your battery %, rather than the number of kw you've consumed

grogi

Per kWh

Black_Knight wrote: »

Not if done right. The threshold should be based on your battery %, rather than the number of kw you've consumed

And it gets overly complicated...

Mickeroo

Per kWh

Black_Knight wrote: »

Not if done right. The threshold should be based on your battery %, rather than the number of kw you've consumed

Easier to just base it on the rfid or whatever surely. Same rfid starts a charge a few seconds after it stops one then it stays on the higher rate.

KCross

Doesn’t the charge protocol have the ability to read the cars VIN?

Should be trivial to implement it once you have that.

Johnboy1951

If and when the charging network is fit for purpose there will be no need for such time charging, unless abuse exists.

Just charge per KWh ..... simple, effective and has the benefit of charging for what is delivered!

If the chargers are still being abused then charge for time the vehicle is left connected after a full charge is attained, with maybe a 15 min grace period between end of charge and disconnection.

kanuseeme

How many private companies offer rapid charging> Tesla, Ionity , another?

When Ecars bring in charging for charging, are there rules concerning state aid? will the other private companies start court proceedings ? for under pricing etc.

I am trying to work this out, If the gov wants more EV cars on the road, they could slap tax on fuel and ICE cars, force people into EV's , but it would be unpopular, the gov then says you have a wonderful network of rapids to use with a minimum price, then the likes of Tesla complain no one is using our service because of your pricing, court case.

daheff

Mickeroo wrote: »

Easier to just base it on the rfid or whatever surely. Same rfid starts a charge a few seconds after it stops one then it stays on the higher rate.

so i wait 10mins between charges.

seems to me that there will always be a way around that.

Silent Running

On the charging for charging issue. I've used a lot of rapid chargers across the country. There are a few that charge well below the stated output figure, one even as low as 22kW.

If charging per minute was introduced there would be no incentive to make the charge faster, and an unscrupulous supplier might just throttle the chargers back a bit and make more profit per day. If charging per kW was introduced, it would create an incentive for suppliers to keep chargers running faster, and maybe even upgrade to faster chargers.

I can see the argument for per minute charging, but I can also see the pitfalls. I just don't trust the ESB to have our best interests above their own.

Mickeroo

Per kWh

daheff wrote: »

so i wait 10mins between charges.

seems to me that there will always be a way around that.

Make the window a half hour to an hour then. I'd value my time on a long journey more than saving a few cents, I'd imagine most would be the same.

McGiver

Mickeroo wrote:

Make the window a half hour to an hour then. I'd value my time on a long journey more than saving a few cents, I'd imagine most would be the same.

Per kWh plus overstaying fee after 30 minutes. The fee can be progressive as well

liamog

Per kWh

Silent Running wrote: »

On the charging for charging issue. I've used a lot of rapid chargers across the country. There are a few that charge well below the stated output figure, one even as low as 22kW.

If charging per minute was introduced there would be no incentive to make the charge faster, and an unscrupulous supplier might just throttle the chargers back a bit and make more profit per day. If charging per kW was introduced, it would create an incentive for suppliers to keep chargers running faster, and maybe even upgrade to faster chargers.

I can see the argument for per minute charging, but I can also see the pitfalls. I just don't trust the ESB to have our best interests above their own.

This would be a good place for a regulator to step in.
A charger operator should have to provide evidence that the charger is capable of charging at the advertised speeds and define advertised rates.

A charger could be advertised as 50kW and 25c/min. An unscrupulous operator could run it at 50A x 1000V to really take advantage of people.

Per kWh

Hate to say it but esb should have gone per minute charging as I have been saying all along. Per kWh doesn't matter as demonstrated by both of the cars currently charging. The LEAF is free to hog the charger at €2 per h plus the overstaying fee. Had it been 0.20 per minute he would be paying in effect €1/kWh at €12/h.

Black_Knight

Per kWh

samih wrote: »

Hate to say it but esb should have gone per minute charging as I have been saying all along. Per kWh doesn't matter as demonstrated by both of the cars currently charging. The LEAF is free to hog the charger at €2 per h plus the overstaying fee. Had it been 0.20 per minute he would be paying in effect €1/kWh at €12/h.

Yup. In their survey I voted for per minute charging, though it's a bit harsh on slower charging cars (or rapidgate affected cars), especially when the 175kw charging stations roll out.

That said, the poll data was pretty 1 sided in favour of kWh charging.

...Ghost...

samih wrote: »

Hate to say it but esb should have gone per minute charging as I have been saying all along. Per kWh doesn't matter as demonstrated by both of the cars currently charging. The LEAF is free to hog the charger at €2 per h plus the overstaying fee. Had it been 0.20 per minute he would be paying in effect €1/kWh at €12/h.

The overstay fee should be enough to discourage most people from taking the proverbial. The current setup is as close to ideal as one could reasonably expect. What we need now are more chargers at more locations.

liamog

Per kWh

...Ghost... wrote: »

The overstay fee should be enough to discourage most people from taking the proverbial. The current setup is as close to ideal as one could reasonably expect. What we need now are more chargers at more locations.

Overstay fee's are a joke. It's a recognition that time on the charger is the limited resource whilst avoiding charging people for time at the charger. Far from being as close to ideal as possible, it's literally the opposite to ideal.

I can still plug in to the FastAC with a 16A car for 45 mins, and spend the grand total of 72c, whilst annoying anybody who wants to use the charger.

My preferred system would be a per min fee on all chargers, plus a per kWh fee for high powered chargers (>50kW).

ei9go

liamog wrote: »

Overstay fee's are a joke. It's a recognition that time on the charger is the limited resource whilst avoiding charging people for time at the charger. Far from being as close to ideal as possible, it's literally the opposite to ideal.

I can still plug in to the FastAC with a 16A car for 45 mins, and spend the grand total of 72c, whilst annoying anybody who wants to use the charger.

My preferred system would be a per min fee on all chargers, plus a per kWh fee for high powered chargers (>50kW).

Because eCars won't do what Fastned do and only allow 3 phase charging on AC43

liamog

Per kWh

ei9go wrote: »

Because eCars won't do what Fastned do and only allow 3 phase charging on AC43

Ok, then I'd be able to plug in a three-phase I3 and spend €2.20 to block the charger for 45 mins, the only system which fairly balances the needs of the many is per minute charging. Any other system is too easy to abuse to the detriment of everybody else.

ei9go

liamog wrote: »

Ok, then I'd be able to plug in a three-phase I3 and spend €2.20 to block the charger for 45 mins, the only system which fairly balances the needs of the many is per minute charging. Any other system is too easy to abuse to the detriment of everybody else.

Wouldn't be a fair price at lower temperatures where the charge rate has slowed considerably like in the last few days

liamog

Per kWh

ei9go wrote: »

Wouldn't be a fair price at lower temperatures where the charge rate has slowed considerably like in the last few days

Why not, are you planning on using less time at the charger? That's the limited resource here, not the electricity its providing.

Parking doesn't get less expensive, just because you are more likely to drive to the location instead of walking in the nice weather. (absolutely terrible example)

unkel

+1

Or just 30c/minute + 30c/kWh and as soon as you draw under 20kW, up that to €1/min + €1/kWh

innrain

They have some chargers that do load balancing. How would this work when two cars would be paying per minute, essentially double time, while they get half of juice each.

kennethsmyth

liamog wrote: »

Ok, then I'd be able to plug in a three-phase I3 and spend €2.20 to block the charger for 45 mins, the only system which fairly balances the needs of the many is per minute charging. Any other system is too easy to abuse to the detriment of everybody else.

You're saying a normal charge of 10% to 80% for a leaf 40 (who may or may not have a rapidgate issue) is abuse!

No its not, its a correct use of the charger and fair charging is per kwh, if there is not enough chargers yet that issue needs to be rectified. The older cars will still exist and its not fair to penalise those who have tried to help the environment.

liamog

Per kWh

kennethsmyth wrote: »

You're saying a normal charge of 10% to 80% for a leaf 40 (who may or may not have a rapidgate issue) is abuse!

No its not, its a correct use of the charger and fair charging is per kwh, if there is not enough chargers yet that issue needs to be rectified. The older cars will still exist and its not fair to penalise those who have tried to help the environment.

You're not being penalised, you are paying for utilising the scarce resource, which is time on a DC charger.

When I arrive at a charger and somebody else is using it, I don't really care how much energy they taking, I only care, that a system incentivises them to move on as quickly as possible. Per kWh fees with an overstay charge only encourage you to move after 45 minutes.

Bjorn did a video, where he sums up the pros and cons of each system.

Per kWh

It's not the next person's fault if your (=mine, have a L40) Leaf rapidgates and takes ages to charge. Or if I decide to plug in a car that takes 40 kW to a 350 kW charger.

Appropriate per minute charge based on the charger maximum rate is the only way to go as done in Norway and Sweden for example. That's the only way to ensure the chargers are vacated at timely manner.

kanuseeme

what is the rate in Norway or Sweden?

The only problem I see with charging for charging is, if its expensive it will slow the uptake of EV's, until range increases or cost of fuel increases dramatically.

Even with charging hubs who wants to wait for a chance to charge and spend 10 euro +

I can imagine a person thinking to go to a hub because there is 4 chargers there and 11 others doing the same

Per kWh

The rate I encountered at Fortum 50 kW DC chargers was 2kr/0.20 EUR per minute. So €2 per 10 minutes connected. For 150 kW chargers they seem to charge about 0.50 per minute.

When charging there you're very conscious that every 5 minutes extra costs another Euro and you then make sure you disconnect when the charge rate begins to taper if you can make it to the next charger.

kennethsmyth

liamog wrote: »

You're not being penalised, you are paying for utilising the scarce resource, which is time on a DC charger.

When I arrive at a charger and somebody else is using it, I don't really care how much energy they taking, I only care, that a system incentivises them to move on as quickly as possible. Per kWh fees with an overstay charge only encourage you to move after 45 minutes.

Bjorn did a video, where he sums up the pros and cons of each system.

It shouldn't be a scarce resource! Also you dont care, that's not very considerate either!

...Ghost...

liamog wrote: »

Overstay fee's are a joke. It's a recognition that time on the charger is the limited resource whilst avoiding charging people for time at the charger. Far from being as close to ideal as possible, it's literally the opposite to ideal.

I can still plug in to the FastAC with a 16A car for 45 mins, and spend the grand total of 72c, whilst annoying anybody who wants to use the charger.

My preferred system would be a per min fee on all chargers, plus a per kWh fee for high powered chargers (>50kW).

It's a disincentive to stay plugged in for longer than is necessary, especially targeting those who might plug in and saunter around the shopping centre while plugged in. €5 is on the low side. €10 is more reasonable in my opinion, but it really is as close to ideal when considering everyone.....not just the ones who can charge their car the quickest.

Following that logic would see the elderly turfed out of restaurants because they take too long eating their lunch compared to someone like me who could wolf down a BigMac meal in less than 3 minutes. Maybe I should ask for a discount? (ps....I don't eat BigMacs )

More chargers per location is what is needed. The consumer is interested in the electricity, which is what they are paying for. Charging someone for the time they take charging is the wrong approach and should only be done where people are abusing the service. The 45 minutes covers this. It gives people enough time to get a decent charge.

slave1

...Ghost... wrote: »

More chargers per location is what is needed. The consumer is interested in the electricity, which is what they are paying for. Charging someone for the time they take charging is the wrong approach and should only be done where people are abusing the service. The 45 minutes covers this. It gives people enough time to get a decent charge.

Totally agree, but even this will not be perfect.
I passed by a Tesla charging area on hols last month, only one of the Teslas had someone in it and there was a queue of I think 3 Tesla's waiting for a charge

...Ghost...

The Bjorn video is a relatively accurate reflection on the different pricing models and he does say that the charge per kWh is a very fair method of charging. What is missing from his opinion piece is an overstay fee, which would discourage intentional hogging.

Charging per minute suits those who can afford the cars with bigger batteries and faster charging speeds, clearly shown in the Kona v E-Tron comparison.

slave1 wrote: »

Totally agree, but even this will not be perfect.
I passed by a Tesla charging area on hols last month, only one of the Teslas had someone in it and there was a queue of I think 3 Tesla's waiting for a charge

And we can't stop people from being assholes. Thankfully I have mostly come across decent and considerate people at charge points who at least give an indication of how long they will be. Anyone eijet with a wallet can choose to take the overstay fee on the chin....but then perhaps incremental overstay fees can be applied to a car every 5 minutes after the 45.

liamog

Per kWh

...Ghost... wrote: »

but then perhaps incremental overstay fees can be applied to a car every 5 minutes after the 45.

So you'd charge €1/min for charging then ...

ELM327

Per kWh

innrain wrote: »

They have some chargers that do load balancing. How would this work when two cars would be paying per minute, essentially double time, while they get half of juice each.

Same as Tesla do if they load balance.... tiered pricing.

innrain

On the Tesla page they say:
<<Where possible, owners are billed per kWh (kilowatt-hour), which is the most fair and simple method. In other areas, we bill for the service per minute.>>

Now Tesla is what MAC is in the computers world. They are separate cause they have their own ecosystem. They don't care about Leaf24s.
I just saw the charging speed chart for Leafs and I'm amazed. Basically they charge fast the first 6kWh (approx 8 mins) then slowly reducing the speed. That would be expensive in per minute model.

https://support.fastned.nl/hc/en-gb/articles/204784998-Charging-with-a-Nissan?utm_source=WebEN-Car&utm_campaign=Klant-support&utm_medium=Hyper1

Why not have the overstay charged per minute and the rate per minute to increase after some fixed periods of time. So after 45 minutes charging 1EUR/min till 60 mins then 2EUR/min till 75 mins then if that is not steep enough 5EUR/min.

...Ghost...

liamog wrote: »

So you'd charge €1/min for charging then ...

Firstly, I didn't suggest any monetary value per 5 minutes within the context of the paragraph addressing it and secondly, it would only apply for overstaying customers. Customers who are charging for less than 45 minutes would pay only for the energy consumed.

I said:

perhaps incremental overstay fees can be applied to a car every 5 minutes after the 45.

I hope that clarifies it, as my post may have been misunderstood if taking the figures together from the first paragraph.

liamog

Per kWh

...Ghost... wrote: »

Firstly, I didn't suggest any monetary value per 5 minutes within the context of the paragraph addressing it and secondly, it would only apply for overstaying customers. Customers who are charging for less than 45 minutes would pay only for the energy consumed.

I said:


I hope that clarifies it, as my post may have been misunderstood if taking the figures together from the first paragraph.

So basically you are in favour of a per-minute fee, but with first 45 minutes being a grace period charged only per kWh.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

So basically you are in favour of a per-minute fee, but with first 45 minutes being a grace period charged only per kWh.

Yes combined per kW and per min charge is best. And I'd do 30 mins per kW not 45 min. The problem with combined pricing model is that it's not simple to explain to me ordinary folk.

Another option is this:
0-30 min - 0.33/kW
31-45 mins - 0.66/kW
46+ mins - 0.99/kW

Solves everything...and it is doesn't compound two variables like per min & per kW charge.

McGiver

innrain wrote:

Why not have the overstay charged per minute and the rate per minute to increase after some fixed periods of time. So after 45 minutes charging 1EUR/min till 60 mins then 2EUR/min till 75 mins then if that is not steep enough 5EUR/min.

Would work but it's hard to explain...

You can achieve the same with the model I mentioned. Increasing per kW rates based on time. Time itself isn't charged but kW is increasingly expensive as time progresses. I.e. the pet kW rate is variable as a function of charging time elapsed.

McGiver

Per kWh

McGiver wrote: »

Another option is this:
0-30 min - 0.33/kW
31-45 mins - 0.66/kW
46+ mins - 0.99/kW

Solves everything...and it is doesn't compound two variables like per min & per kW charge.

So you would be happy to stay behind somebody for an extra hour balancing their battery taking another 2 kWh going from 97 to 100% and only paying 2 yoyos.

Not solving everything. However per minute solves everything as it ensures it would be in your best interest to select a quick charging car if you need public charging regularly. And there would be very specific incentive to disconnect as soon as you can instead of trickle charging that last kWh.

ELM327

Per kWh

McGiver wrote: »

Yes combined per kW and per min charge is best. And I'd do 30 mins per kW not 45 min. The problem with combined pricing model is that it's not simple to explain to me ordinary folk.

Another option is this:
0-30 min - 0.33/kW
31-45 mins - 0.66/kW
46+ mins - 0.99/kW

Solves everything...and it is doesn't compound two variables like per min & per kW charge.

per kW or per kWh?
In Norway they have tiered pricing in some places based on the max kW that the charger can deliver. EG 50kW charger 25c/min but 150kW is 35c etc

kennethsmyth

samih wrote: »

So you would be happy to stay behind somebody for an extra hour balancing their battery taking another 2 kWh going from 97 to 100% and only paying 2 yoyos.

Not solving everything. However per minute solves everything as it ensures it would be in your best interest to select a quick charging car if you need public charging regularly. And there would be very specific incentive to disconnect as soon as you can instead of trickle charging that last kWh.

" select a quick charging car if you need public charging regularly"

You think people are able to "select" a quick charging car. Nope they "select" what they can afford.

Johnboy1951

If you wish to charge per time period then ban the sale of slow charging cars and get rid of slow chargers, so that all consumers are treated equally.

Otherwise a simple charge per Kwh is the only way to treat everyone equally.

If the gov provides a grant for a slow charging car, and that is what I can afford, why should I be penalised by being charged more for my 'fuel' that the guy next door who can afford a fast charging vehicle, also supported by gov subsidy?

ELM327

Per kWh

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If you wish to charge per time period then ban the sale of slow charging cars and get rid of slow chargers, so that all consumers are treated equally.

Otherwise a simple charge per Kw is the only way to treat everyone equally.

If the gov provides a grant for a slow charging car, and that is what I can afford, why should I be penalised by being charged more for my 'fuel' that the guy next door who can afford a fast charging vehicle, also supported by gov subsidy?

*Per kWh.


And you are using the same resource (time connected) regardless of what speed you are taking. The charger can deliver 50kW - if you're taking 10-15 then that's a bad use of a facility and you should have bought a different car.

creedp

samih wrote: »

So you would be happy to stay behind somebody for an extra hour balancing their battery taking another 2 kWh going from 97 to 100% and only paying 2 yoyos.

Not solving everything. However per minute solves everything as it ensures it would be in your best interest to select a quick charging car if you need public charging regularly. And there would be very specific incentive to disconnect as soon as you can instead of trickle charging that last kWh.

Could FCP's be configured to provide a minimum level of power, i.e. once a charge drawn reduces to say 10kwh the charger automatically stops the charging session? This would ensure that the 'tricklers' don't excessively delay other EV users without fleecing slower charging EV owners with per minute charging.

ELM327

Per kWh

creedp wrote: »

Could FCP's be configured to provide a minimum level of power, i.e. once a charge drawn reduces to say 10kwh the charger automatically stops the charging session? This would ensure that the 'tricklers' don't excessively delay other EV users without fleecing slower charging EV owners with per minute charging.

*kW


And yes I agree, if you are taking 10kW the charger should disconnect.

Johnboy1951

ELM327 wrote: »

*Per kWh.


And you are using the same resource (time connected) regardless of what speed you are taking. The charger can deliver 50kW - if you're taking 10-15 then that's a bad use of a facility and you should have bought a different car.

So you wish to encourage those who cannot afford the exhorbitant price of BEVs to drive ICE vehicles?

That seems to be contrary to the gov's intention.

The answer is simple ...... do NOT charge the 'less well off' more for the same amount of 'fuel'.