Art Commission Issue

Jessiel

[UPDATE] I just discovered that the undercoat paint done by the customers themselves affected the drying time and adherence of the acrylic paints to the wall. It resulted into blistering, which shouldn't happen on acrylic paints after two days of application.

As this was my first outdoor mural I had overlooked this situation and admit that I should have preped the wall adequately. I realise now to take responsibility of the situation even if it was the customer's mistake. In the future I will know better to prep the surface properly and draw up a written agreement beforehand.

Thanks everyone for your replies.[UPDATE]

C3PO

A mural that washes away within a few days is hardly "fit for purpose" unless it was specifically supposed to be temporary?

Dav010

If they paid for a permanent mural, I’d say it’s your baby until the paint dries

Jessiel

C3PO wrote: »

A mural that washes away within a few days is hardly "fit for purpose" unless it was specifically supposed to be temporary?

Not all of the mural washed away. The last paint application was the first ones the was run down due to rain. Also a mural WILL wash away if it is not dry or kept dry, this is unavoidable, which is why I didn't just leave it out there completely exposed. My question is obviously about who's responsible for maintaining it undamaged until the paint dries. If I am responsible, then that would mean I would have to constantly watch it until the paint dries - which would obviously mean I won't be doing this type of work.

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

If they paid for a permanent mural, I’d say it’s your baby until the paint dries

So you mean that I should camp outside where the mural is located until the paint dries? If I should accept this, do you mean I should get paid for the hours / days that would mean it could take? How is this a fair compromise?

Dav010

Jessiel wrote: »

Not all of the mural washed away. The last paint application was the first ones the was run down due to rain. Also a mural WILL wash away if it is not dry or kept dry, this is unavoidable, which is why I didn't just leave it out there completely exposed. My question is obviously about who's responsible for maintaining it undamaged until the paint dries. If I am responsible, then that would mean I would have to constantly watch it until the paint dries - which would obviously mean I won't be doing this type of work.

Your responsibility to do what ever needs to be done to provide the mural which was commissioned. I certainly wouldn’t pay for art work which washed away the first time it rained.

Or you check the forecast and don’t do murals on external walls when it’s going to rain.

Dav010

Jessiel wrote: »

So you mean that I should camp outside where the mural is located until the paint dries? If I should accept this, do you mean I should get paid for the hours / days that would mean it could take? How is this a fair compromise?

I mean if it washes away before the paint you applied dries, the person you are doing the work for didn’t get what they paid for through no fault of theirs.

Surely you are not the only artist who has to account for rain, what do others do?

rd1izb7lvpuksx

Jessiel wrote: »

If I am responsible, then that would mean I would have to constantly watch it until the paint dries - which would obviously mean I won't be doing this type of work.

Or you could price it (or the cost of hiring someone to protect it) into the cost of the mural?

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

Your responsibility to do what ever needs to be done to provide the mural which was commissioned. I certainly wouldn’t pay for art work which washed away the first time it rained.

I understand. I did the mural but sadly it rained. The fact is that the mural would've been waterproof if the paint has completely dried before it rained.

Or you check the forecast and don’t do murals on external walls when it’s going to rain.

The reason why I accepted the commission was because I was under the impression that the customers were aware of the possibility of the rainy forecast damaging the rain - that's why we've put up a gazebo. The other reason why the mural was done during rainy forecast was because the mural was intended for an upcoming event.

It was a risk which I thought they aware of but are still happy to proceed anyway.

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

I mean if it washes away before the paint you applied dries, the person you are doing the work for didn’t get what they paid for through no fault of theirs.

Surely you are not the only artist who has to account for rain, what do others do?

Yes, I completely agree, which is why I wouldn't have accepted the commission if I knew there is a risk of it getting washed down with the rain. Part of the issue was that the mural was intended for an event. I was just under the impression that they are aware of this risk and would still be happy to proceed. Otherwise I would have declined the request.

Jessiel

C3PO wrote: »

A mural that washes away within a few days is hardly "fit for purpose" unless it was specifically supposed to be temporary?

This is what I heard from them on the phone. However, I requested pictures of the damage and they video called on the phone to show the damage. It wasn't washed down, it was bubbling and some paint was peeling off. The reason for this is because they had painted over the concrete, which was I did not ask them to do. I asked them only to clean the wall. Now, I did not know that this would happen to the undercoat if it starts lashing rain. However, this was not solely my fault - they shouldn't have painted over the wall. I should've known that the undercoat was a bad idea and should've declined the job.

The acrylic should have dried within two days before it started raining and the mural was intended to last and withstand the weather. Once it dries completely, it is waterproof. So the problem was not with the job I did, it was with the undercoat they did.

However, they are adamant that everything was my fault, and demanded a complete do over.

Dav010

Jessiel wrote: »

This is what I heard from them on the phone. However, I requested pictures of the damage and they video called on the phone to show the damage. It wasn't washed down, it was bubbling and some paint was peeling off. The reason for this is because they had painted over the concrete, which was I did not ask them to do. I asked them only to clean the wall. Now, I did not know that this would happen to the undercoat if it starts lashing rain. However, this was not solely my fault - they shouldn't have painted over the wall. I should've known that the undercoat was a bad idea and should've declined the job.

The acrylic should have dried within two days before it started raining and the mural was intended to last and withstand the weather. Once it dries completely, it is waterproof. So the problem was not with the job I did, it was with the undercoat they did.

However, they are adamant that everything was my fault, and demanded a complete do over.

Did you tell them before you started that they should not have painted the wall and this bubbling could happen because they did?

Seriously, if you got the job on referral from someone else, you are going to have two people annoyed with you, go back, touch up the mural and get paid, the goodwill might get you another job. A refusal may kill your rep if they put up on social media that you don’t stand over your work.

Tikki Wang Wang

How much money is in question here?

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

Did you tell them before you started that they should not have painted the wall and this bubbling could happen because they did?

Seriously, if you got the job on referral from someone else, you are going to have two people annoyed with you, go back, touch up the mural and get paid, the goodwill might get you another job. A refusal may kill your rep if they put up on social media that you don’t stand over your work.

I only told them to have the wall cleaned beforehand. Like wash it down and let it dry. However when I arrived, it was painted. And it was either, walk away, cause I'm not gonna try and scrape the paint off the wall. Or paint, which I did, because I did not know at the time that it was going to be an issue later on.

I will be getting pictures from the damage soon and if it's repairable and if the weather permits then I will fix it. However, if it is that bad, then a complete redo because of their mistake isn't something I would do for free.

Also, the people who referred me were the ones arguing with me on the phone. I will deal the the customers directly from now on.

I'm not too worried about my rep. This was my first outdoor mural job. I thought I knew enough to get started and obviously I got unlucky. If they hadn't painted the wall, it would've turned out fine, but unfortunately this happened. Next time I'll know how to prep the surface better, learning from this experience.

Dav010

Jessiel wrote: »

I only told them to have the wall cleaned beforehand. Like wash it down and let it dry. However when I arrived, it was painted. And it was either, walk away, cause I'm not gonna try and scrape the paint off the wall. Or paint, which I did, because I did not know at the time that it was going to be an issue later on.

I will be getting pictures from the damage soon and if it's repairable and if the weather permits then I will fix it. However, if it is that bad, then a complete redo because of their mistake isn't something I would do for free.

Also, the people who referred me were the ones arguing with me on the phone. I will deal the the customers directly from now on.

I'm not too worried about my rep. This was my first outdoor mural job. I thought I knew enough to get started and obviously I got unlucky. If they hadn't painted the wall, it would've turned out fine, but unfortunately this happened. Next time I'll know how to prep the surface better, learning from this experience.

You weren’t unlucky, you just didn’t “know enough to get started”. Sounds like you are learning on the job, which is fair enough, everyone makes mistakes at the beginning. But no one is going to pay you to do the job again. As the person providing the service, a professional, you should have known the effect of both the painted wall and rain on your mural, and you should have warned the customer in advance.

Do you actually know the effect different surfaces/paint has on mural paint?

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

You weren’t unlucky, you just didn’t “know enough to get started”. Sounds like you are learning on the job, which is fair enough, everyone makes mistakes at the beginning. But no one is going to pay you to do the job again. As the person providing the service, a professional, you should have known the effect of both the painted wall and rain on your mural, and you should have warned the customer in advance.

True, but to be fair, the person who painted the wall was a painter. I kind of relied that he'd know something about it and wouldn't have done something that would jeopardise anything.

All I'm saying is that I got unlucky in a way that I was confronted with a situation that could've been avoided. I did not paint the wall myself - if I did I would take full responsibility and redo the whole thing without hesitation.

It will have to depend on the damage done. It is also more likely to happen again even if I retouch the acrylic unless the entire undercoat comes off. As I said, I will be getting info about the damage and see what I can do.

Dav010

Jessiel wrote: »

True, but to be fair, the person who painted the wall was a painter. I kind of relied that he'd know something about it and wouldn't have done something that would jeopardise anything.

All I'm saying is that I got unlucky in a way that I was confronted with a situation that could've been avoided. I did not paint the wall myself - if I did I would take full responsibility and redo the whole thing without hesitation.

It will have to depend on the damage done. It is also more likely to happen again even if I retouch the acrylic unless the entire undercoat comes off. As I said, I will be getting info about the damage and see what I can do.

For Gods sake, a painter will paint an external wall using external wall paint, they don’t know or care what paint is best for painting murals.

So now, you have blamed the rain, the house owner, the paint and the painter.

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you actually know the effect different surfaces/paint has on mural paint?

Yes, I researched beforehand what the best paints to use for outdoor murals - which is acrylic. And the surface was bare concrete as far as I knew at the time before arriving at the location. And I knew acrylics would have no problem sticking to bare concrete. What didn't occur to me however was if an undercoat was gonna be a problem. It wasn't an obvious mistake, I was painting the mural on the undercoat and it was sticking fine. However because of the rain, the undercoat itself started blistering and peeling off the wall together with the acrylic.

Wabbit Ears

A gazebo?

a big enough tarp, wooden battons or scaffolding, etc to build a temporary curtain would have been much better IMHO.

I also agree with the consensus this is your issue to fix.

Jessiel

Dav010 wrote: »

For Gods sake, a painter will paint an external wall using external wall paint, they don’t know or care what paint is best for painting murals.

So now, you have blamed the rain, the house owner, the paint and the painter.

You've made sense all the way until here...?

Maybe I haven't explained the situation clearly. THEY used an undercoat that resulted into blistering and peeling off (probably a cheap one?). I used Acrylics that are specifically for outdoor murals.

The RAIN caused the blistering of the undercoat that THEY have put, not me. The rain wouldn't have affected the acrylics if there was no undercoat.

The house owner and painter are the same person.

Obviously there are multiple factors involved in this situation and I did admit I overlooked a specific factor that led to this.

amcalester

Once you decided to go ahead with the mural even though the wall was not prepared as requested you took responsibility for completing the mural.

Unfortunately it’s your problem to fix.

Effects

Sounds like you are still learning what you are doing and don't have a huge amount of practical experience. If you did then you would have known what issues were going to arise with the mixing of the paints.

Your best option is to spend the time to fix it properly and treat it as a learning experience. The customer may have made some mistakes too but sometimes you just have to absorb them yourself and get on with the job. The other option is to walk away, not get paid, and deal with any fall out that has on your reputation.

Effects

Jessiel wrote: »

THEY used an undercoat that resulted into blistering and peeling off (probably a cheap one?). I used Acrylics that are specifically for outdoor murals.

The RAIN caused the blistering of the undercoat that THEY have put, not me. The rain wouldn't have affected the acrylics if there was no undercoat.

The issue of the undercoat bubbling is something you should have been aware of, through experience. Then after explaining the risk to the client, you should have either refused to start the job, or proceeded if they accepted the risk of damage if it had started raining.

Tikki Wang Wang

Jessiel wrote: »

Yes, I researched beforehand what the best paints to use for outdoor murals - which is acrylic. And the surface was bare concrete as far as I knew at the time before arriving at the location. And I knew acrylics would have no problem sticking to bare concrete. What didn't occur to me however was if an undercoat was gonna be a problem. It wasn't an obvious mistake, I was painting the mural on the undercoat and it was sticking fine. However because of the rain, the undercoat itself started blistering and peeling off the wall together with the acrylic.

How much was the fee? Is it 200 or 2,000?

Jessiel

Effects wrote: »

Sounds like you are still learning what you are doing and don't have a huge amount of practical experience. If you did then you would have known what issues were going to arise with the mixing of the paints.

Your best option is to spend the time to fix it properly and treat it as a learning experience. The customer may have made some mistakes too but sometimes you just have to absorb them yourself and get on with the job. The other option is to walk away, not get paid, and deal with any fall out that has on your reputation.

Thanks, this does sum up everything. I will be in touch with the customer and see what I can do.

Jessiel

Effects wrote: »

The issue of the undercoat bubbling is something you should have been aware of, through experience. Then after explaining the risk to the client, you should have either refused to start the job, or proceeded if they accepted the risk of damage if it had started raining.

So if I have explained the risk to the client, and proceeded if they accepted the risk of damaging it. And the rain damages it. What happens then?

rock22

I think you are being treated a little harshly here . But it seems you made inadequate allowance for rain. Not such good planning in Ireland! I

I also assume that any contract was silent on weather protection and any delay due to the weather. A lesson for the future, had a clear contract covering the commission. If it is not possible to execute the mural in bad weather then the contract should allow for delay on this. You could also take full control of weather protection but add that cost to the final invoice.

The problem now is that you have spend time and presumably materials , on the piece and the customer feels he has got nothing of value.

I would suggest you estimate what is involved in repairing the work. If the cost and time is reasonable then do the repair, after agreement with the customer, and get paid. If it is not viable then you will have to walk away without getting paid.

Effects

Jessiel wrote: »

So if I have explained the risk to the client, and proceeded if they accepted the risk of damaging it. And the rain damages it. What happens then?

Then they pay to have it redone. As long as the risks were adequately explained.
But if there was a chance of rain, and they insisted that it be done on those dates, then a proper tarp should have covered it until it was dry, at the clients expense.

In my own line of work I often spot problems that may arise through something the client hasn't accounted for properly. I explain the risks and extra costs that may be involved. In the early days I had to take the hit for somethings that didn't go right, but you have to balance that against the jobs that work out smoothly.

Jessiel

rock22 wrote: »

I think you are being treated a little harshly here . But it seems you made inadequate allowance for rain. Not such good planning in Ireland!

Yes I guess I didn't. I had complete 2 days no rain after the mural had been finished and I was sure that was enough time for the acrylic to dry. However, as I repeatedly mentioned previously, the undercoat prevented this.

But yeah, I agree with everything else you said.

Jessiel

Effects wrote: »

Then they pay to have it redone. As long as the risks were adequately explained.
But if there was a chance of rain, and they insisted that it be done on those dates, then a proper tarp should have covered it until it was dry, at the clients expense.

In my own line of work I often spot problems that may arise through something the client hasn't accounted for properly. I explain the risks and extra costs that may be involved. In the early days I had to take the hit for somethings that didn't go right, but you have to balance that against the jobs that work out smoothly.

Thanks. I was definitely unprepared in undertaking this project. And I understand now that it is my responsibility since I hadn't done a written agreement. But next time I'll know better to draw up a proper contract to avoid situations like this, even with families.

I believe that's the only way to resolve who's taking what risks and who's liable for them.