Insurance cover query with Garda consequences

random voice

Hi,


I recently did an old neighbour a favour and drove his van on a task with him as a passenger. He maintained he was fully comp and as he was in vehicle and i am a clean license and in my fifties we both assumed I was covered.


I had a problem reversing the van into an alleyway on a public/private property (leisure centre). A garda that was in the area watching from a distance came over and berated me for my efforts and asked me to produce license and insurance for the vehicle in question.


The neighbour has since found out that his insurance was changed this yr from open driven to driver only.


This guard is particularly overzealous ive learned and expect this to be pursued to the full rigour of the law.


I understand my position and dont need multiple posts highlighting my misfortune, what I wish to know from anyone who works for an insurance firm or is knowledgeable in these matters is whether it is possible for the van owner to write a letter on my behalf (stating that he assumed I was covered but upon enquiry realised i wasnt to explain the genuine nature of my mistake) or will this also incriminate him in some negligence especially as it is written on paper.


I have until monday to submit the paperwork so an informed answer sooner than later would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Nikki Sixx

random voice wrote: »

Hi,


I recently did an old neighbour a favour and drove his van on a task with him as a passenger. He maintained he was fully comp and as he was in vehicle and i am a clean license and in my fifties we both assumed I was covered.


I had a problem reversing the van into an alleyway on a public/private property (leisure centre). A garda that was in the area watching from a distance came over and berated me for my efforts and asked me to produce license and insurance for the vehicle in question.


The neighbour has since found out that his insurance was changed this yr from open driven to driver only.


This guard is particularly overzealous ive learned and expect this to be pursued to the full rigour of the law.


I understand my position and dont need multiple posts highlighting my misfortune, what I wish to know from anyone who works for an insurance firm or is knowledgeable in these matters is whether it is possible for the van owner to write a letter on my behalf (stating that he assumed I was covered but upon enquiry realised i wasnt to explain the genuine nature of my mistake) or will this also incriminate him in some negligence especially as it is written on paper.


I have until monday to submit the paperwork so an informed answer sooner than later would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Not being nasty, but a letter from the van owner is worthless in this scenario. May I ask why the van owner didn’t drive it himself?

The pigeon man

Does your own insurance cover you to drive someone else's car with their permission?

I know this is the case with alot of policies

magentis

Unfortunately you were driving without insurance,a letter from the owner wont change that in the eyes of the law.

magentis

The pigeon man wrote: »

Does your own insurance cover you to drive someone else's car with their permission?

I know this is the case with alot of policies

The driving other cars extension on private motor policies specifically excludes commercial vehicles.

random voice

I dont have insurance, I was hoping having him on board would help nut I kind of knew it was fruitless in eyes of the law, I just wondered if a judge would have a more sympathetic view as i was doing an old man a turn and i didnt have a crazy driving record if i had a letter from him to state the error. I still havent heard from anyone whether the van owner would get in trouble for letting me drive his van without insurance cover whilst he was on board, this was the crux of my enquiry??

Nikki Sixx

What details did you give the guard when he stopped you?

random voice

name, address, date of birth, telephone number.

random voice

he asked for license and insurance for the vehicle in 10 days

Nikki Sixx

random voice wrote: »

he asked for license and insurance for the vehicle in 10 days

Would you consider taking out a policy on the van and hoping for the best?

random voice

thought of that, costs more than the fine would be and it could blow up in my face regarding date of insurance issued versus info guard put in his book, very risky gamble.

Atlantic Dawn

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Jurgen The German

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

Would you consider taking out a policy on the van and hoping for the best?

No insurer will back date a policy so the date he was stopped would be different from the inception date of the policy. It would make matters worse as it is a clear attempt at deception.

OP, all you can do is throw yourself on the mercy of the guard. Explain that the owner had assured you the van had open driving on it. Ask the owner to come with you to the station to verify that. A letter is pointless as anyone could write it. If the guard sticks to the letter of the law then you will most likely get done for driving with no insurance.

magentis

Jurgen The German wrote: »

No insurer will back date a policy so the date he was stopped would be different from the inception date of the policy. It would make matters worse as it is a clear attempt at deception.

OP, all you can do is throw yourself on the mercy of the guard. Explain that the owner had assured you the van had open driving on it. Ask the owner to come with you to the station to verify that. A letter is pointless as anyone could write it. If the guard sticks to the letter of the law then you will most likely get done for driving with no insurance.

Hopefully the Garda will have some Klopp on Jurgen.

Pkiernan

Bring the vans insurance certificate and disk to the station and present it there.
You're not required to produce it to the same Garda who questioned you.
Ask for a receipt too.

Don't volunteer any information. It will not help you at this stage.

They're looking for documentation to prove the van has insurance and it's unlikely they'll be examining it word by word.

If it gets to court bring the owner with you and have him bring the current policy and previous policies. Be truthful with the judge of course.

Glass fused light

random voice wrote: »

Hi,
The neighbour has since found out that his insurance was changed this yr from open driven to driver only.

I would be a little sceptical of this, it's unusual for a policy to be changed rather than to just be priced on last years details.

cruizer101

magentis wrote: »

The driving other cars extension on private motor policies specifically excludes commercial vehicles.

I just checked the policy booklet for my insurance and this is the section on driving other cars.
No mention of excluding commercial vehicles.

3. Comprehensive Driving Other Cars
If item 5(b) is shown on current Certificate of Insurance and Section 4 is shown on the current
Schedule of Insurance we will cover you under the terms of Sections 2, 3 and 4 while you are
personally driving a vehicle as described in item 5(b) provided that
a) the vehicles engine capacity is not greater than 2,500 cubic centimetres and the value
does not exceed €50,000
b) you have the owner's permission to drive the vehicle
c) the vehicle has not been modified in any way
d) the loss or damage occurs within the Republic of Ireland
e) there is no other insurance in force which covers you to drive that vehicle.
Where such cover exists no payment will be made under this sub section irrespective of the
cover provided by that other policy.

Not saying you are wrong but have you any reference for what you are saying, I had thought there was no issue and have driven a friends Transit Connect a few times you have me worried now I wasn't insured.

edit to add source: https://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/app/uploads/2016/01/Car-Insurance-Policy-Booklet-0518.pdf

_Brian

Letter from owner will be useless.

It was your responsibility to ensure you were covered and you didn’t make sure.

Depends on the guard in question but you could be prosecuted for no insurance.

_Brian

cruizer101 wrote: »

I just checked the policy booklet for my insurance and this is the section on driving other cars.
No mention of excluding commercial vehicles.

3. Comprehensive Driving Other Cars
If item 5(b) is shown on current Certificate of Insurance and Section 4 is shown on the current
Schedule of Insurance we will cover you under the terms of Sections 2, 3 and 4 while you are
personally driving a vehicle as described in item 5(b) provided that
a) the vehicles engine capacity is not greater than 2,500 cubic centimetres and the value
does not exceed €50,000
b) you have the owner's permission to drive the vehicle
c) the vehicle has not been modified in any way
d) the loss or damage occurs within the Republic of Ireland
e) there is no other insurance in force which covers you to drive that vehicle.
Where such cover exists no payment will be made under this sub section irrespective of the
cover provided by that other policy.

Not saying you are wrong but have you any reference for what you are saying, I had thought there was no issue and have driven a friends Transit Connect a few times you have me worried now I wasn't insured.

edit to add source: https://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/app/uploads/2016/01/Car-Insurance-Policy-Booklet-0518.pdf

The fourth word is “cars”
These are not commercial vehicles.

No private policy covers driving commercial vehicles.

cruizer101

_Brian wrote: »

The fourth word is “cars”
These are not commercial vehicles.

No private policy covers driving commercial vehicles.

I somehow glanced over that bit and just saw where they said vehicle in all the other terms.
F**king insurance in Ireland they make everything so difficult.
If I'm licenced to drive the vehicle and its the same licence class as the vehicle I'm insured on there is no good reason I shouldn't be able to drive it.

FishOnABike

cruizer101 wrote: »

I just checked the policy booklet for my insurance and this is the section on driving other cars.
No mention of excluding commercial vehicles.

3. Comprehensive Driving Other Cars
If item 5(b) is shown on current Certificate of Insurance and Section 4 is shown on the current
Schedule of Insurance we will cover you under the terms of Sections 2, 3 and 4 while you are
personally driving a vehicle as described in item 5(b) provided that
a) the vehicles engine capacity is not greater than 2,500 cubic centimetres and the value
does not exceed €50,000
b) you have the owner's permission to drive the vehicle
c) the vehicle has not been modified in any way
d) the loss or damage occurs within the Republic of Ireland
e) there is no other insurance in force which covers you to drive that vehicle.
Where such cover exists no payment will be made under this sub section irrespective of the
cover provided by that other policy.

Not saying you are wrong but have you any reference for what you are saying, I had thought there was no issue and have driven a friends Transit Connect a few times you have me worried now I wasn't insured.

edit to add source: https://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/app/uploads/2016/01/Car-Insurance-Policy-Booklet-0518.pdf

_Brian wrote: »

The fourth word is “cars”
These are not commercial vehicles.

No private policy covers driving commercial vehicles.

I think it's time to get some real advice. As far as I know 'car' has no official meaning, under toad traffic legislation there are different classes of "mechanically propelled vehicle".

If van van you were driving would meet the limitations mentioned in 5b above e.g. engine size, weight, value and any other limitations mentioned in the certificate, policy booklet or schedule of insurance it can be argued that your insurance does cover you to drive the van.

Another thing which may be relevant when you present the requested document at the garda station is what category on your driving licence was driving the van covered by?

You don't mention the type of van but many light to medium sized vans would be included in the same category B that covers a 'car'.

I don't know if any precedent has ever been set but if the van is in the same licence category as your main vehicle and meets the other limitations in the schedule (engine size, value, etc...) surely national and EU driving licence and road traffic legislation defining classes of vehicles has more weight than a colloquial term which is not defined in legislation.

cruizer101

Well I googled a few others and some of them seem to be a bit more explicit. eg. liberty (https://www.libertyinsurance.ie/help-centre/am-i-insured-to-drive-other-vehicles/)

It does not include:
vans;
car-vans;
jeep-type vehicles with no seats in the back; or
vans adapted to carry passengers.

Still a load of crap mind, the one I was driving was transit connect which is actually shorter and narrower than my own car,
And in my own car I can fold the seats down so it basically is the same as a commercial vehicle

SmartinMartin

^^^^^

People should actually read the thread before replying.

check_six

When you were to hire a van do you not need comprehensive insurance to avoid the extra insurance charge?

FishOnABike

cruizer101 wrote: »

Well I googled a few others and some of them seem to be a bit more explicit. eg. liberty (https://www.libertyinsurance.ie/help-centre/am-i-insured-to-drive-other-vehicles/)

It does not include:
vans;
car-vans;
jeep-type vehicles with no seats in the back; or
vans adapted to carry passengers.

Still a load of crap mind, the one I was driving was transit connect which is actually shorter and narrower than my own car,
And in my own car I can fold the seats down so it basically is the same as a commercial vehicle

Checking the max. authorised mass for the transit connect on a few websites it seems all variants listed are comfortably within the class B vehicle category (MAM1 3500kg), the highest capacity one was listed as having MAM1 of 2405kg.

The slipshod terminology used in the example from liberty insurance above is frightening, do any of those vehicle terms have a legal definition?

I think there's a need for legislation to ensure insurance companies use only the vehicle categories defined in legislation and the class of use e.g. domestic, social + pleasure, commercial travelling, carrying goods, hire for payment or reward, etc... in categorising policies. Otherwise in the words of Humpty Dumpty "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

Vans - thought this was a brand name for runners and casual ware, associated largely with surf and skater culture.

Jeep - American brand of rugged military personnel career - wft is "jeep-type"

FishOnABike

Another thing that might be relevant is what the van was being used for and whether that use was covered by insurance - e.g. if it was being used for carriage of goods, business or vommercial and your insurance only covered social, domestic + pleasure then, although the class of vehicle might be covered by your licence and insurance but, that particular use might not.

The more you think about the more complexities there seems to be. Considering the potential for penalty points, a fine or driving disqualification a chat with a solicitor in a Free Legal Advice Clinic or initial consultation with a solicitor (often free) might be worthwhile to figure out how to best deal with it.

coylemj

Pkiernan wrote: »

Bring the vans insurance certificate and disk to the station and present it there.
You're not required to produce it to the same Garda who questioned you.
Ask for a receipt too.

Don't volunteer any information. It will not help you at this stage.

They're looking for documentation to prove the van has insurance and it's unlikely they'll be examining it word by word.

They're not that dumb. The cert. will show the owner's name as the policyholder so given that the OP is a different person, the Garda at the desk will go straight to the section on 'Drivers', looking for something along the following lines....

(b) Any person between the ages of 25 and 70 years with a full driving licence driving with the Insured's consent the vehicle described in 5(a) above.

Provided that the person driving holds a licence to drive such Vehicle or, having held such a licence is not disqualified from holding such a licence.


which will be absent from the cert. so it will be immediately obvious that the OP was not covered to drive the vehicle, whether it was a van or a car.

coylemj

FishOnABike wrote: »

Another thing that might be relevant is what the van was being used for and whether that use was covered by insurance

The owner's insurance did not cover other drivers and the OP has no insurance of his own.

FishOnABike wrote: »

The more you think about the more complexities there seems to be.

The more I read the thread, the less complex it appears. Van, car, truck, motorbike.... the OP was not covered to drive the vehicle, period.

Pkiernan

Pkiernan wrote: »

Bring the vans insurance certificate and disk to the station and present it there.
You're not required to produce it to the same Garda who questioned you.
Ask for a receipt too.

Don't volunteer any information. It will not help you at this stage.

They're looking for documentation to prove the van has insurance and it's unlikely they'll be examining it word by word.

If it gets to court bring the owner with you and have him bring the current policy and previous policies. Be truthful with the judge of course.

Best advice. Also, go when it might be busier

Effects

random voice wrote: »

I had a problem reversing the van into an alleyway on a public/private property (leisure centre).

Were you driving it the whole time or did you just take over the reversing into the alleyway as he was nervous of doing it himself?

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

Best advice. Also, go when it might be busier

OP's hands over his driving licence, they record it in their system. Then he hands over the van owner's insurance cert. Which has a diffrent name and address. You're suggesting they won't notice?