Irish language revival

Genfella

Cén chaoi a bhfuil an Bhreatnais in ann dul chun cinn le níos mó ná 20% á labhairt, ach níl ach 10% ag labhairt na Gaeilge againn. Cén fáth?

Sut mae'r Gymraeg wedi gallu diogelu a hyrwyddo eu hiaith ac ni allwn? Beth maen nhw'n ei wneud i wneud eu hiaith yn ffynnu? Faint sy'n mynd i gadwedigaeth?

We need to preserve our language and, when reunification occurs, aim to have at least 40% of the population as Irish-speaking.

Edgware

Genfella wrote: »

Cén chaoi a bhfuil an Bhreatnais in ann dul chun cinn le níos mó ná 20% á labhairt, ach níl ach 10% ag labhairt na Gaeilge againn. Cén fáth?

Sut mae'r Gymraeg wedi gallu diogelu a hyrwyddo eu hiaith ac ni allwn? Beth maen nhw'n ei wneud i wneud eu hiaith yn ffynnu? Faint sy'n mynd i gadwedigaeth?

We need to preserve our language and, when reunification occurs, aim to have at least 40% of the population as Irish-speaking.

You'll be waiting for both

mad muffin

póg mo thóin

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

You're codding yourself if you really believe even 10% can speak Irish.

Personally I'm not bothered about it and get niffed when people equate our Irishness with just a language,

Das Reich

13 years in Ireland and never saw anyone speaking it, county Kerry or Galway included. One time I heard an old couple talking, I followed to hear better and it was Swiss German. And to be honest when I hear on the radio or tv I can recognize straight away that they are English native speakers because of their R (they have the retroflex R like in English).

briany

Ooo, recent registration posting an old favourite of a topic with a bit of extra republicanism thrown in.

Bet this won't degenerate into weird side arguments about how Michael Collins was a traitor.

Agus anois, an nuacht.

_blaaz

Orally its not a particularly difficult language to master


Dont see whats wrong with aspiring to have large% of population fluent in it?

Igotadose

Das Reich wrote: »

13 years in Ireland and never saw anyone speaking it, county Kerry or Galway included. One time I heard an old couple talking, I followed to hear better and it was Swiss German. And to be honest when I hear on the radio or tv I can recognize straight away that they are English native speakers because of their R (they have the retroflex R like in English).

5 years in Ireland, and hear it nearly daily in interactions with others. Of course, living in a Gaeltacht region probably has something to do with that

What's striking is how well Wales could do on preserving and encouraging it's language, while Ireland fumbles along spending a lot of money with poor results. Seems like we could learn something from Wales.

DEFTLEFTHAND

_blaaz wrote: »

Orally its not a particularly difficult language to master


Dont see whats wrong with aspiring to have large% of population fluent in it?

what more can be done?

Students already spend 14 yrs learning it.

briany

_blaaz wrote: »

Orally its not a particularly difficult language to master


Dont see whats wrong with aspiring to have large% of population fluent in it?

There's nothing wrong with it, but nobody's ever come up with a way of making that happen.

On the isle of Jersey during WWII, the native language, Jersais, made a bit of a comeback because the occupying Germans couldn't understand it, making it useful as a sort of language of the resistance. If a similar calamity ever befell Ireland again, I could see Irish making a resurgence. At least it would provide a practical necessity of its use. Otherwise, there are no amount of government and educational initiatives that'll get that job done.

Genfella

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

what more can be done?

Students already spend 14 yrs learning it.

How come Wales have managed to revive their language more than we have?

_blaaz

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

what more can be done?

Students already spend 14 yrs learning it.

Teach it to a higher stand orally....writing and learning off passages is the worst way to learn anything


Like anything,you learn by doing,the more you speak it,the more you learn it


People getting bogged.down in spelling,verbs and different how tenses etc etc written is pointless....learn to speak/think in irish and written part will follow.....

Igotadose

briany wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with it, but nobody's ever come up with a way of making that happen.

On the isle of Jersey during WWII, the native language, Jersais, made a bit of a comeback because the occupying Germans couldn't understand it, making it useful as a sort of language of the resistance. If a similar calamity ever befell Ireland again, I could see Irish making a resurgence. At least it would provide a practical necessity of its use. Otherwise, there are no amount of government and educational initiatives that'll get that job done.

Again I'll bring up Wales. Seems like there was a strong desire to resurrect and preserve the language, and it succeeded. I think that, until recently, the Irish government was against the language, and allowed the RCC to control its teaching, to the detriment of the students. Latin grammar was bolted onto Irish by the RCC where maybe it didn't apply but that's how latin was taught ergo it would work for Irish, too.

It comes down to the teaching. Better teaching would impart more love of the language and more success with restoring fluency to Ireland. Not an easy problem to solve at all.

kowloon

Genfella wrote: »

We need to preserve our language and, when reunification occurs, aim to have at least 40% of the population as Irish-speaking.

Which arse was that figure pulled out of?

whisky_galore

_blaaz wrote: »

Orally its not a particularly difficult language to master


Dont see whats wrong with aspiring to have large% of population fluent in it?

That's if they want to learn it, which they clearly don't. You can't force people to do anything.

People will go out of their way to learn and pay big money for cooking or playing the ukulele or whatever. All the resources are there, even online. Evening courses it's all out there, so the old excuse of 'ah shur they don't teach it proper' is a red herring imo.
Let's face it, they're not really arsed.

_blaaz

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's if they want to learn it, which they clearly don't. You can't force people to do anything.

If its taught right people will learn it


Couldnt blame anyone for not liking it now....its terribly taught

briany

Igotadose wrote: »

Again I'll bring up Wales. Seems like there was a strong desire to resurrect and preserve the language, and it succeeded. I think that, until recently, the Irish government was against the language, and allowed the RCC to control its teaching, to the detriment of the students. Latin grammar was bolted onto Irish by the RCC where maybe it didn't apply but that's how latin was taught ergo it would work for Irish, too.

It comes down to the teaching. Better teaching would impart more love of the language and more success with restoring fluency to Ireland. Not an easy problem to solve at all.

Welsh never died out to the same extent as Irish did. For example, in the Anglo-Irish treaty negotiations, Lloyd George was a fluent native Welsh speaker and made a point of demonstrating that fact to De Valera, whose Irish was not of a comparable level, being a learned language for him.

By the early 20th century, Welsh was still spoken by about half the population of Wales, whereas Irish was already on life support in Ireland. The efforts to preserve Welsh started from a broader base and a viable community of speakers, while in Ireland, the language was ever more diminished by wave after wave of emigration, and the government making only a token effort to stop this.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Modh coinníollach.

Two words to explain why it won't be revived.

Igotadose

briany wrote: »

Welsh never died out to the same extent as Irish did. For example, in the Anglo-Irish treaty negotiations, Lloyd George was a fluent native Welsh speaker and made a point of demonstrating that fact to De Valera, whose Irish was not of a comparable level, being a learned language for him.

By the early 20th century, Welsh was still spoken by about half the population of Wales, whereas Irish was already on life support in Ireland. The efforts to preserve Welsh started from a broader base and a viable community of speakers, while in Ireland, the language was ever more diminished by wave after wave of emigration, and the government making only a token effort to stop this.

Thanks for that info. Do you know if the powers that be actively tried to destroy Welsh like happened in Ireland with the penal laws and the later plantation system (which caused Ulster Irish to be the common dialect throughout Ireland at one time.)

However, as even Cornish (which was officially dead), is making a comeback, where there's a will, there's a way. I agree with other posters that the job done teaching it is the core of the problem, having tried to learn the language as an adult using the available resources. The quality of the materials is borderline abysmal and the poor teachers struggle to teach it. Seems we could at least address the materials and teaching - why is there no one true great textbook used to teach Irish? Things like that. And, 4 different (in some cases, very different) dialects doesn't help expand the language.

El Tarangu

The Irish figure is definitely more aspirational than based in reality, and I suspect that Welsh figure is, too.

As someone who speaks Irish fluently, I have used the language on a couple of dozen occasions in the 15 years since I left school (mainly for talking smack about people while with other Irish people abroad), and I think I have heard it while out and about in Ireland fewer than 10 times.

Genfella

Loom at the Meath Gaeltacht. Why can't more man made Irish-speaking settlements like this be created?

We need to do exactly what the Welsh did.

When there is a united Ireland we should relocate Gaelgoirs to loyalist Ulster-Scots areas, injecting Irish culture into areas like Ballymena and Larne and making Ulster-Scots extinct.

Jellybaby1

I wish I could speak Irish but I can't. I also wish I could speak French or Spanish but I can't. I'm doing an online course in Spanish and I found if I miss a few lessons I forget what I already learned. I only have primary school Irish and I have never heard Irish spoken since Primary School and I'm now an OAP, in fact I hear more foreign languages being spoken here in Dublin but nary a word of Irish. But for anyone who might like to give it a go now sure try these....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/irish/features/8/english/
https://www.rte.ie/easyirish/

El Tarangu

Genfella wrote: »

Loom at the Meath Gaeltacht. Why can't more man made Irish-speaking settlements like this be created?

We need to do exactly what the Welsh did.

When there is a united Ireland we should relocate Gaelgoirs to loyalist Ulster-Scots areas, injecting Irish culture into areas like Ballymena and Larne and making Ulster-Scots extinct.

So, forced-migration of people, based on their ethnicity, Stalin-style.

Righto...

whisky_galore

Genfella wrote: »

Loom at the Meath Gaeltacht. Why can't more man made Irish-speaking settlements like this be created?

We need to do exactly what the Welsh did.

When there is a united Ireland we should relocate Gaelgoirs to loyalist Ulster-Scots areas, injecting Irish culture into areas like Ballymena and Larne and making Ulster-Scots extinct.

Lol.
You are gifted with a lively imagination.

Upforthematch

Igotadose wrote: »

And, 4 different (in some cases, very different) dialects doesn't help expand the language.

Really? Sure there are some differences but nothing major. Just like the French in France v Africa v Quebec have their quirks. Makes it interesting I think.

What's the story with Scots Gaelic, any revival happening there?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Genfella wrote: »

When there is a united Ireland we should relocate Gaelgoirs to loyalist Ulster-Scots areas, injecting Irish culture into areas like Ballymena and Larne and making Ulster-Scots extinct.

I see what we're dealing with now.

Goodnight.


Good try but....fail. No Grade.

briany

Igotadose wrote: »

Thanks for that info. Do you know if the powers that be actively tried to destroy Welsh like happened in Ireland with the penal laws and the later plantation system (which caused Ulster Irish to be the common dialect throughout Ireland at one time.)

However, as even Cornish (which was officially dead), is making a comeback, where there's a will, there's a way. I agree with other posters that the job done teaching it is the core of the problem, having tried to learn the language as an adult using the available resources. The quality of the materials is borderline abysmal and the poor teachers struggle to teach it. Seems we could at least address the materials and teaching - why is there no one true great textbook used to teach Irish? Things like that. And, 4 different (in some cases, very different) dialects doesn't help expand the language.

The point I was making was that the Welsh & Irish revival movements did not start from the position, so they're not really comparable.

As for learning Irish, there should be no textbooks involved initially. This is an arse-backwards way of learning languages, in any case. The way to learn a language is to gain an instinct for the grammar by starting with very simple sentences, and incorporating the most commonly used words into those sentences, and this should all be done orally for the first while. You can hang the more complicated vocabulary off this frame later.

Upforthematch

El Tarangu wrote: »

As someone who speaks Irish fluently, I have used the language on a couple of dozen occasions in the 15 years since I left school (mainly for talking smack about people while with other Irish people abroad), and I think I have heard it while out and about in Ireland fewer than 10 times.

Since you're fluent why are you speaking it so rarely? French speakers where I live meet up to chat in French to keep up their skills. Ciorcal comhrá type of thing. Irish language music or book sellers would chat away to you as gaelainn if you're doing business with them....

Johnny Jukebox

Beaten into me by a collection of ideologues and left a lifelong bitter taste.

There is a way to teach cultural heritage but terrorizing children isn't one of them.

Haven't spoken a word since June 1980 and actively encourage my own kids to avoid.

Sardonicat

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Modh coinníollach.

Two words to explain why it won't be revived.

And I still don't know what it actually is.

It's taught in the worse way possible for a language. And it's an essential subject for most third level courses. Change how it's taught. Take away the exam. And stop tampering with it! What's taught in school isn't a living language. And even with all that, if someone doesn't want to know how to speak Irish then they won't bother using it once they leave school.

I don't have it and quite frankly I don't want it. Nothing at all against those who do but it simply doesn't interest me. My parents didn't speak it. My grandparents ( born in the 1890s and 1900s) didn't have so it's safe to assume their parents hadn't a word either. It's in no way 'my' language and hasn't been used on either side of my family tree for several generations now. It has nothing to do with my identity as an Irish person beyond shared memories of the dreaded 'Peig'.

Diablo Verde

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Modh coinníollach.

Two words to explain why it won't be revived.

This is a bit of a lazy argument. It seems strange that the conditional tense in Spanish doesn't seem to put people off that language when it's just as complicated as the Irish version. The famous modh coinníollach is a piece of piss compared to the tuiseal ginideach in any case.

My Irish is OK and improving all the time because I enjoy it and make an effort with it. I definitely left school with a poor level, but I can say the same about French and German. I reckon I hear the language spoken around Dublin about once a month.

facehugger99

2 as 10

Johnny Jukebox

Can someone explain to my why some Gaeilgeoiri and the frithGhaeilgeoiri (antis) are always haggling over speaker numbers? What does that attempt to show, except maybe that people like the idea of being able to speak it? I don't see where that conversation could possibly end up, or what it is attempting to prove.

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

Haven't spoken a word since June 1980 and actively encourage my own kids to avoid.

How sad, why would you discourage children from learning any language or its literature?

Upforthematch

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Can someone explain to my why some Gaeilgeoiri and the frithGhaeilgeoiri (antis) are always haggling over speaker numbers? What does that attempt to show, except maybe that people like the idea of being able to speak it? I don't see where that conversation could possibly end up, or what it is attempting to prove.

Something to do with money?

Mrs OBumble

I hear it's handy to have if you ever need to phone Revenue or similar: phone the Irish-language number and you'll hardly be in a queue at all.

Speaking Irish once they answer is totally option, in most cases, too.

Fourier

My experience is that very few have a real command of Irish, as in let's say being capable of actually reading a novel. However I think it's very hard to attain that now considering the native speaking base is so low.

However this is true of all languages in Ireland. I remember a Spanish friend of mine speaking with final year degree students taking Spanish and he said their Spanish was alright but not where you'd expect somebody taking it as a degree to be. I think we have a poor ability in languages in general.

whisky_galore

Fourier wrote: »

I think we have poor ability in languages in general.

Almost all our media is Anglophone as well as the countries we emigrate to, by and large.

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

And I still don't know what it actually is.

It's just the conditional tense. It's not much more complex than the French version, and certainly easier and more consistent than its English counterpart!

El Tarangu

Upforthematch wrote: »

Since you're fluent why are you speaking it so rarely?

Well, I don't really know that many other people who speak Irish well; and even if I meet someone who does speak Irish well, the chances are that there will be at least one person present who doesn't speak it, so it would be a bit impolite to conduct the conversation in Irish

French speakers where I live meet up to chat in French to keep up their skills. Ciorcal comhrá type of thing.

It's normal for people to converse in their first language with one another; the difference being that their are very few Irish speakers, even, where this would be the case.

Irish language music or book sellers would chat away to you as gaelainn if you're doing business with them....

This is not a situation many people would encounter in their day-to-day; I rarely speak to booksellers in English, nevermind Irish.

TheDiceMan2020

It's passed on! This language is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet its maker! 'It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!

Igotadose

TheDiceMan2020 wrote: »

It's passed on! This language is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet its maker! 'It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!

It's people like you what cause unrest.

KathleenGrant

briany wrote: »

For example, in the Anglo-Irish treaty negotiations, Lloyd George was a fluent native Welsh speaker and made a point of demonstrating that fact to De Valera, whose Irish was not of a comparable level, being a learned language for him.

The Anglo-irish treaty negotiations that de Velera didn't even attend you mean???

KathleenGrant

TheDiceMan2020 wrote: »

It's passed on! This language is no more! It has ceased to be! 'It's expired and gone to meet its maker! 'It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!

How can you say it is no more and has ceased to be if people still speak it you eejit?

Del2005

So many posts and not one mention of Peig!

We spend a fortune on the language but very few understand it. While other countries have 4 year olds speaking multiple languages. Its a chusy number for some people and a waste of money for most. All official documents have to be printed in Irish yet some are never purchased, shows that even people who can read it don't bother.

Upforthematch

El Tarangu wrote: »

Well, I don't really know that many other people who speak Irish well; and even if I meet someone who does speak Irish well, the chances are that there will be at least one person present who doesn't speak it, so it would be a bit impolite to conduct the conversation in Irish

This is not a situation many people would encounter in their day-to-day; I rarely speak to booksellers in English, nevermind Irish.

Your approach comes across very passive. It's not like Irish speakers are that rare or it's that difficult to buy an irish language novel. Assuming you live in Ireland of course.

Like any skill, use it or lose it.

Filmer Paradise

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's if they want to learn it, which they clearly don't. You can't force people to do anything.

People will go out of their way to learn and pay big money for cooking or playing the ukulele or whatever. All the resources are there, even online. Evening courses it's all out there, so the old excuse of 'ah shur they don't teach it proper' is a red herring imo.
Let's face it, they're not really arsed.

Best thing to do for the Irish language is ban it altogether, make it illegal.

They'll all want to learn it then!

That won't happen though because there's a whole 'Language Industry' out there now & it's been well established for 100 years at this stage.

A significant & very vocal minority are doing very well out of it the way it is & want to preserve their hobbyhorse/gravy train at all costs.

fryup

Genfella wrote: »

When there is a united Ireland we should relocate Gaelgoirs to loyalist Ulster-Scots areas, injecting Irish culture into areas like Ballymena and Larne and making Ulster-Scots extinct.

ya, that'll go down a treat :cool: you first

KathleenGrant

The best thing to do for the language is not to ban it but to make it non-compulsory. That will raise the standard of those who wish to learn it and stop the rest whinging about it.

El Tarangu

Upforthematch wrote: »

Your approach comes across very passive. It's not like Irish speakers are that rare or it's that difficult to buy an irish language novel. Assuming you live in Ireland of course.

Like any skill, use it or lose it.

I mean, you're not wrong. But life is busy, and while a ciorcal comhrá sounds interesting enough in an abstract sense, the chances of me deciding to go to one of a particular evening are about as likely as me deciding to go see an art installation or a one-person play, or some other type of niche cultural event (not inconceivable, but not particularly likely, either).

I speak other languages (well, one other, bits and bobs of two others), and it's a lot easier to motivate myself to practice them, as they offer many more practical applications (many, many more speakers in other countries, career advancement, etc).

Upforthematch

Upforthematch wrote: »

Your approach comes across very passive. It's not like Irish speakers are that rare or it's that difficult to buy an irish language novel. Assuming you live in Ireland of course.

Like any skill, use it or lose it.

Although I agree with the Lose it or Use it approach, are you kidding here re the Irish-language novels?

Apart from the classics, which a moderate reader would get through in a few months, there are precious few good novels written in the Irish language today.

My preferred bookshop is one of the few retailers that actually stock Irish books, and most of the newer books are dreadful garbage, often self-published or published by very low-budget publishers with (apparently) a low threshold for talent.

Reading material in modern Irish fiction is astoundingly bad, although things are better on the poetry side. That lack of talent is my greatest worry for the language, and not some census of how many people are speaking it.