Irish language revival

Mahony0509 · 03-06-2019 8:34pm

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

They really don't, though.

The amount of fluent Irish speakers within a given cohort by age 18 is in the thousands.

The amount of actually fluent French/German/Spanish speakers is negligible.

The standard for a H1 in Irish against French/German/Spanish speakers is not comparable.

You already know this, how many actually fluent French/German/Spanish speakers of Irish nationality do you know?

Whereas if you were down in Gallaras this weekend you'd have met thousands of young Irish speakers from every corner of the country.

In my local secondary school, near Cork City, they're expecting (in a class of ~40) up to 10 H1s in French, versus maybe 2 if they're lucky in Irish. I know from speaking to teachers that that trend is similar in surrounding areas. Schooling is teaching kids to hate Irish, and they would much rather learn another language.

Wibbs · 03-06-2019 8:36pm

Reati wrote: »

Erm just because a set of people anecdotally believe something doesn't make it true or fact

The majority of kids go through school learning Irish as a compulsory subject and yet the majority of Irish adults can't speak it. Anecdote or no, it's clearly been a failure as far as revitalising the language goes. There were more native speakers of Irish when the Brits left than there are today, even after a century of promotion and education and legislation. Look at the civil service example. When the requirement to speak and use it as a daily language was removed the staff went over to English almost overnight. And these were folks who could already speak it.

So whats the reason? Badly taught? The majority don't see any use for it beyond a cultural artefact, even cultural window dressing? Other? In less time Welsh grew, Basque grew, Catalan grew, Hebrew came from nothing, never mind all the languages of the post Soviet era nations. It's a long list and there were many positive and negative pressures that differed from the Irish language experience but the results kinda speak for themselves. It seems the majority of Irish people actually don't see any concrete positive for it, not beyond lip service anyway and this has been reflected in the Irish diaspora too.

Now the minority will continue to speak it and that's a good thing and I suspect the inexorable decline of the last century has been halted and it's now stabilised at a more permanent level and again that's a good thing, but growth to the point where it's a much larger minority who will fluently speak it on a daily basis is at the moment a pipe dream.

LegallyAbroad wrote:

That's because boards.ie has a certain demographic (right-wing middle aged men, mostly

A demographic more given to nationalism and a demographic one might expect to be more in favour of a return to Irish? Never mind a demographic that tend to like to impose stuff on younger people. Why are the Left wing more likely to be Gaelgoiri?

ILoveYourVibes · 03-06-2019 8:38pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

This ^ reminds me of something I experienced years ago. I had a temp job just handing out forms to people. One guy asked for a form in Irish and I promptly handed him a form in Irish. Then he asked me to give him a form in English. I said 'sorry, I thought you asked for one in Irish'. He said 'I did but I need the English one so I can fill in the Irish one'. Just an example of what 'I speak Irish' can really mean.

I haven't a word of Irish. I just sometimes use it in art. Particularly when i am pissed off.

I think though its useful to look at things from new angles. I find this debate goes around and around.

Its often two different types of people with zero tolerance for even the moderates of the other view let alone the extremes. For example the whole Lá Dearg thing. I know its the north but it illustrates something.

When you are exposed to an extreme against you it changes how you act. Not just in reaction to the extreme but as a whole.

The whole Suil Eile thing made me think of it. What do extreme unionists see Irish as? Do they have good reason? And what reaction do their attitudes get?

What does it feel like to be in a language minority? What reactions do they get. And most importantly HOW DOES THAT FEEL?

Stop moaning ffs · 03-06-2019 8:43pm

Is anyone doubting Irish is taught badly? And is in need of serious reinvigorating?

Wibbs · 03-06-2019 8:44pm

Mahony0509 wrote: »

Schooling is teaching kids to hate Irish, and they would much rather learn another language.

TBH I would agree that there is too much attention and blame laid at the foot of teaching the subject. If it were just that alone, I don't think we would have seen the steep decline in the language over the last hundred years. IMO it's far more pragmatic and to do with the perceived usefulness of the language beyond one's schooling and exams to pass. Learning French or Spanish opens up a huge chunk of the world to someone, learning Irish does not as unless an Irish speaker is 101 they speak English with equal facility. Again it is a perception, most French and Spanish students won't use it much if at all in adulthood unless they move to places where it's the local language, but they can go through an entire life in Ireland without ever having to speak Irish either.

Stop moaning ffs · 03-06-2019 8:47pm

Made that point earlier.
It has few practical applications compared to any other language.

Maybe change that and introduce ways where it can be used and useful.

*what they might be apart from a Garda being unable to arrest you if he can’t address you in reply in Irish I don’t know. Is that still a thing?

Fourier · 03-06-2019 8:47pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Now the minority will continue to speak it and that's a good thing and I suspect the inexorable decline of the last century has been halted and it's now stabilised at a more permanent level and again that's a good thing, but growth to the point where it's a much larger minority who will fluently speak it on a daily basis is at the moment a pipe dream.

I think this is actually borne out in studies. It declined to a certain number of speakers until about the 80s but has held there since. I too would consider it unlikely to rise as I believe it would have over the 2000s and 2010s when negative feeling toward it was lower than before, yet it still held at roughly that level.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:01pm

Mahony0509 wrote: »

Sad state of affairs when more LC students can speak French/German/Spanish fluently compared to Irish.

Proof please? This anecdotal arguement continues to get pushed in this thread yet no one has given a shred of evidence.

I've shown how these languages underperform in exams compared to Irish yet (I'm told that doesn't actually matter because standardized exams results don't count as proof of accomplishment when learning of languages even those there is an entire evaluation framework based on this concept) somehow the French and German students we churn out are much better but can't get thier heads around the exams. Let's be honest, we churn out students with the same or lesser ability on average at Irish, French or German.

It's highly unlikely we're putting out more fluent speakers of any langauge than the other given they are all taught in the same format. You do not become fluent in 3.5hrs a week. Anyone claiming otherwise is either a Savant in languages or a English speaking monglot talking out their ass. Re-read that setence 3.5times!

As for the "shur mickey down the road leant more French in the leaving than Irish" evidence. Course he did. It's absolutely not the old I can speak French or Spanish (just like the 1.7million who claim they can speak Irish. Another dubious figure) yet when push comes to shove, they actually can't do more than say hello and order a beer.

Sardonicat · 03-06-2019 9:03pm

I can order a beer in French. I can't in Irish.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:04pm

Mahony0509 wrote: »

In my local secondary school, near Cork City, they're expecting (in a class of ~40) up to 10 H1s in French, versus maybe 2 if they're lucky in Irish. I know from speaking to teachers that that trend is similar in surrounding areas. Schooling is teaching kids to hate Irish, and they would much rather learn another language.

I call BS. I will gladly FOI request for the results of that school and post here come August. PM the name.

Fourier · 03-06-2019 9:10pm

I do agree with Reati, I doubt more people in Ireland (who aren't immigrants from Francophone countries obviously) can actually speak French than can speak Irish. You can see that in exam statistics at both 2nd and 3rd level. Which is surprising as Irish is harder than French.

Not that massive numbers speak Irish, we're just bad all round at languages.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2019 9:10pm

Reati wrote: »

I call BS. I will gladly FOI request for the results of that school and post here come August. PM the name.

You seem to be doing that a lot.

How about adressing the issue: secondary school does nothing to garner a revival of the language, instead being happy to just force itself onto Irish students and maintain the status quo.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:12pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

I can order a beer in French. I can't in Irish.

An féidir liom beoir a fháil

ILoveYourVibes · 03-06-2019 9:16pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Is anyone doubting Irish is taught badly? And is in need of serious reinvigorating?

nope

Sardonicat · 03-06-2019 9:19pm

Reati wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

I can order a beer in French. I can't in Irish.

An féidir liom beoir a fháil

Tis a pity no one thought to teach students how to order food and drink in Irish instead of getting us to learn stuff off by heart when I was at school. I think that's the point people are trying to make. Of I could have conversed in Irish I would have given it a shot but was never given the tools to do that.

Do I hate the language? No!
But I will say it again, I do not regard it as some fundamental facet if my identity because it's not.

RobMc59 · 03-06-2019 9:22pm

An outside view is you seem to beat yourselves up about this.I live in England near the border with Wales and if you travel into mid Wales and beyond Welsh is quite common but the Welsh don`t seem obsessed with whether it`s spoken or not.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:22pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You seem to be doing that a lot

I do and when people actually present facts I won't.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How about adressing the issue: secondary school does nothing to garner a revival of the language, instead being happy to just force itself onto Irish students and maintain the status quo.

I'd love too but that's not what the conversation has been about for the last 24hrs. Let's do a short recap of the last few pages.

1. Billions are "wasted" on Irish. No they are not. Figures provided refuting.
2. Yeah but that doesn't account for billions in education. Figures provided refuting.
3. Yeah but Irish is taught badly. We produce better more fluent French / German / Mongolian speakers. Figures provided refuting.

Repeat point 3 Ad nauseam with a sprinkling of 1 and 2.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:29pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

But I will say it again, I do not regard it as some fundamental facet if my identity because it's not.

I've seen this comment a few times. What really interesting to me, as an Irish speaker, is I've never heard another genuine Irish speaker (i.e not a troll online) say an Irish monglot English speaker is less Irish because they can't speak the language.

I genuinely only see non Irish speakers feel the need to actually reinforce this.

I will glady echo You absolutely are not less Irish because you haven't got Irish as a spoken language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2019 9:31pm

Reati wrote: »

I do and when people actually present facts I'll won't.

I'd love too but that's not what the conversation has been about for the last 24hrs. Let's do a short recap of the last few pages.

1. Billions are "wasted" on Irish. No they are not. Figures provided refuting.
2. Yeah but that doesn't account for billions in education. Figures provided refuting.
3. Yeah but Irish is taught badly. We produce better more fluent French / German / Mongolian speakers. Figures provided refuting.

Repeat point 3 Ad nauseam with a sprinkling of 1 and 2.

1 and 2 - The amounts are irrelevant: it's it 48 euro, 48 million or 48 billion; if it's not doing nothing to enhance the image of Irish amongst skeptical teenagers, it's being wasted (and the number was specific to education, I believe)
3 - The numbers are irrelevant - If it's not creating more Irish speakers, SOMETHING is wrong.

Again - you're getting so caught up with facts and figures (or hiding behind them), you're not see the whole picture: reviving Irish.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:44pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

1 and 2 - The numbers are irrelevant: it's it 48 euro, 48 million or 48 billion; if it's not doing nothing to enhance the image of Irish amongst skeptical teenagers, it's being wasted (and the number was specific to education, I believe)
3 - If it's not creating more Irish speakers, SOMETHING is wrong.

Again - you're getting so caught up with facts and figures, you're not see the whole picture: reviving Irish.

Course I am more aware of the whole picture but I'm not the one coming in rat-holing on education. I'm simply refuting the BS as people wade in, drop a "fact" and float back out so the conversation is stuck.

Now your back doing the same thing again. The numbers are irrelevant because Irish isn't cool with skeptical teenagers? Seriously that's the argument now? I suppose French is a ride of a language to teenagers?

The numbers are relevant for two reasons. 1. They are the first thing out of people's mouths. 2. People believe replacing Irish with a different language will see us produce fluent speakers of that language. Both refuted to death. Flogging the dead horse.

If you want to move the conversation along, just present your case on why revival can or can't happen (without a big rehash of the last couple of pages) and I'll gladly discuss that.

Edit: see you edited to throw a snide little dig in about hiding behind facts. Getting down to the personal comments now?

astrofool · 03-06-2019 10:07pm

cjmc wrote: »

It’s probably been mentioned but the way Irish is taught in school is awful. We have all grabbed the basics of the grammar in national school and all we get fed in secondary school is peig and more ****e.
No conversational Irish or buying stuff , getting directions etc . Most people I know have said they knew more useful french / German than Irish when they left school.. when I did my leaving if I was dropped in the Gaeltacht I couldn’t have looked for food or directions and I still got a B at pass level
Conversational Irish and repetition would make it easier to go into somewhere , shop , pub whatever and ask for stuff in Irish and meaning more places would have staff to reciprocate.

And yet apparently people score higher points in Irish on average than other subjects, almost like they want to try and make it relevant for people applying to college (because there's f'all chance they'll need it again there).

Reati · 03-06-2019 10:12pm

astrofool wrote: »

And yet apparently people score higher points in Irish on average than other subjects, almost like they want to try and make it relevant for people applying to college (because there's f'all chance they'll need it again there).

Welcome back! Thanks for wading in with more tired opinion again.

There is no apparently. The facts show they score higher.

I asked you already for proof Irish is marked easier if you are going to make that claim.

Anyway we're trying to move on to discuss revival I think now. I hope!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2019 10:20pm

Reati wrote: »

Course I am more aware of the whole picture but I'm not the one coming in rat-holing on education. I'm simply refuting the BS as people wade in, drop a "fact" and float back out so the conversation is stuck.

Now your back doing the same thing again. The numbers are irrelevant because Irish isn't cool with skeptical teenagers? Seriously that's the argument now? I suppose French is a ride of a language to teenagers?

This depends - do you want to see a revival in Irish or French amongst Irish teenagers?

The numbers are relevant for two reasons. 1. They are the first thing out of people's mouths. 2. People believe replacing Irish with a different language will see us produce fluent speakers of that language. Both refuted to death. Flogging the dead horse.

If you want to move the conversation along, just present your case on why revival can or can't happen (without a big rehash of the last couple of pages) and I'll gladly discuss that.

1 and 2 - the relevancy is in the results.

Presenting my case (again) - it can't happen because people nit-pick on numbers and refuse to accept that the money (whatever the amount) is being wasted and the system is failing, as there is little to no increase in the amount of everyday Irish being spoken around the country. I put it to you that you are unconcerned by this.

Edit: see you edited to throw a snide little dig in about hiding behind facts. Getting down to the personal comments now?

"Hiding behind"? I think you'll notice I said "caught up with". Merely an observation, take it as you wish.

Ultimate questions for YOU: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?

Reati · 03-06-2019 10:35pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Presenting my case (again) - it can't happen because people nit-pick on numbers and refuse to accept that the money (whatever the amount) is being wasted and the system is failing, as there is little to no increase in the amount of everyday Irish being spoken around the country.

So we should do...?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

"Hiding behind"? I think you'll notice I said "caught up with". Merely an observation, take it as you wish.

No, you edited and add in the bold part.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Ultimate questions for YOU: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?[/quote

Missed your edit. 'Afraid I asked first will happily answer next reply to you.

Snow Garden · 03-06-2019 10:39pm

We somehow found an English version of Peig - it was like golddust! The book got passed around the class so that people could finally grasp what she was rabbiting on about, the moany yoke.

Reati · 03-06-2019 10:43pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

We somehow found an English version of Peig - it was like golddust! The book got passed around the class so that people could finally grasp what she was rabbiting on about, the moany yoke.

I said way back at the start Peig both linguisticly and content wise is a tough read in English let alone Irish. It really didn't do anyone any favors.

She did have a way with words though. Far too much God and Devil talk for my liking but guess that's part of their living history through the language.

Snow Garden · 03-06-2019 10:56pm

Reati wrote: »

I said way back at the start Peig both linguisticly and content wise is a tough read in English let alone Irish. It really didn't do anyone any favors.

She did have a way with words though. Far too much God and Devil talk for my liking but guess that's part of their living history through the language.

I don't remember any of it to be honest. She lived on an island and I think a lot of her relations died by drowing but I might have that mixed up with some other island story. All I do remember is that it was bleak stuff and great to be able to cram it with the English version. This was in the 80s when we had no internet or bananas or pasta or café lattes or croque monsieurs etc

astrofool · 03-06-2019 11:01pm

Reati wrote: »

Welcome back! Thanks for wading in with more tired opinion again.

There is no apparently. The facts show they score higher.

I asked you already for proof Irish is marked easier if you are going to make that claim.

Anyway we're trying to move on to discuss revival I think now. I hope!

The fact that the average score is higher means it's being marked easier.

Unless you don't realise how exams get marked and marking schemes are created.

But, sure, pedal the line that people try harder in Irish, rather than any of the other subjects they take.

Crusty Jocks · 03-06-2019 11:01pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

I don't remember any of it to be honest. She lived on an island and I think a lot of her relations died by drowing but I might have that mixed up with some other island story. All I do remember is that it was bleak stuff and great to be able to cram it with the English version. This was in the 80s when we had no internet or bananas or pasta or café lattes or croque monsieurs etc

quit your moaning and thank your blessings you had no on demand porn during any exam period. I have used up my recommended lifetime **** quota to avoid prostate cancer on the few weeks before my first junior cert exam alone.

Snow Garden · 03-06-2019 11:04pm

Crusty Jocks wrote: »

quit your moaning and thank your blessings you had no on demand porn during any exam period. I have used up my recommended lifetime **** quota to avoid prostate cancer on the few weeks before my first junior cert exam alone.

We had some very hairy porn. Very hairy. I hope there's no revival for that.

We also had Christian brothers who wanted to bugger us, possibly as gaeilge. I was fast so they never caught me. I think. Might have blocked it out along with Peig.

BTW, its called the Inter Cert.

I could also kick off both feet.

Crusty Jocks · 03-06-2019 11:08pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

We had some very hairy porn. Very hairy.

We also had Christian brothers who wanted to bugger us, possibly as gaeilge. I was fast so they never caught me. I think. Might have blocked it out along with Peig.

BTW, its called the Inter Cert.

The aul Bráthair De Barra running after you with his love truncheon poking out of his black cape looking for some 'buaileadh craiceann'?

astrofool · 03-06-2019 11:09pm

I looked up the list of highest grades by subject, I'm guessing Reati is looking at an article from the Irish Times that lists Irish as the second easiest subject?

If the goal is maximum points, then Russian, followed by Latin, Music, Ancient Greek, Italian, Applied Maths (one that I did back in the day

) and agricultural economics all have higher average grades than Irish, Irish being below average for the highest grades this year.

https://careersportal.ie/school/lc_marks_distribution.php?ed_sub_cat_id=243#Subjects%20and%20Grades

Snow Garden · 03-06-2019 11:14pm

astrofool wrote: »

I looked up the list of highest grades by subject, I'm guessing Reati is looking at an article from the Irish Times that lists Irish as the second easiest subject?

If the goal is maximum points, then Russian, followed by Latin, Music, Ancient Greek, Italian, Applied Maths (one that I did back in the day ) and agricultural economics all have higher average grades than Irish, Irish being below average for the highest grades this year.

https://careersportal.ie/school/lc_marks_distribution.php?ed_sub_cat_id=243#Subjects%20and%20Grades

Wow, people do much better in Irish than English.
Nearly twice as many H1s and H2s in Irish.

23% get H1/H2 in Irish.
12.8% get H1/H2 in English.

I wonder why.

astrofool · 03-06-2019 11:54pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

Wow, people do much better in Irish than English.
Nearly twice as many H1s and H2s in Irish.

23% get H1/H2 in Irish.
12.8% get H1/H2 in English.

I wonder why.

Well, it clearly means, using statistics and facts and figures and all, that LC students are able to speak to each other better in Irish than in English, and we should start worrying about reviving the English language instead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-06-2019 12:06am

Reati wrote: »

So we should do...?

As presented before:
1 - Set a time table of three years whereby the subject will become optional after junior cert. This gives the education board and interested parties a time-frame by which to make the subject interesting and get it to a point where people want to learn it. If you see this as makeing it "cool for skeptical teenagers" and have a problem with I'd have to ask why.
2 - Drop it as an exam subject (idea's not mine - was presented by iloveyourvibes. I didn't like it initially, but am warming to it now)
3 - Ask the students what they want. What would work for them. They ARE the target audience, after all. Again, if you have a problem with this (and bear in mind, I'm NOT saying let them set up the entire syallabus!) why?

No, you edited and add in the bold part.

If that's the case why does the quote in your post read "caught up with"? And why is there no edit history under mine?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Ultimate questions for YOU: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?[/quote

Missed your edit. 'Afraid I asked first will happily answer next reply to you.

You asked second. But no matter, my ideas are listed above. Now again: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?

Snow Garden · 04-06-2019 10:27am

astrofool wrote: »

Well, it clearly means, using statistics and facts and figures and all, that LC students are able to speak to each other better in Irish than in English, and we should start worrying about reviving the English language instead.

23% get H1/H2 in Irish.
12.8% get H1/H2 in English.

Yeah it certainly shows that Irish is graded much softer than English which doesn't surprise me to be honest. As I said before, the Irish lobby is extremely strong. I didn't think H1/H2s would be twice as frequent for Irish though - that's a considerable promotion. You would think the Dept of Education would investigate such an anomaly.

Hamsterchops · 04-06-2019 10:39am

Anyone know what the Irish language act might look like up North? like will it also mean mandatory Irish in all NI schools, or what?

Reati · 04-06-2019 11:17am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Anyone know what the Irish language act might look like up North? like will it also mean mandatory Irish in all NI schools, or what?

It means all marching on the Glorious 12th will need to be done through Irish.

ohnonotgmail · 04-06-2019 11:20am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Anyone know what the Irish language act might look like up North? like will it also mean mandatory Irish in all NI schools, or what?

Only over the dead bodies of most of the DUP.

Reati · 04-06-2019 11:28am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Only over the dead bodies of most of the DUP.

The gas thing is a set of their ancestors were the saviours of the Irish language in a way. They took it, spoke it and preserved it before it become weaponized. I read a great book on it years ago that's name escapes me.

Edit: Found a article about it.
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/presbyterians-and-the-irish-language-roger-blaney-ulster-historical-foundationthe-ultach-trust-6-50-isbn-0-901905-75-5/

Reati · 04-06-2019 11:40am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You asked second. But no matter, my ideas are listed above. Now again: do you see a revival coming about any time soon (via education or other means) and if so, how?

I've put far more time into this that I wanted too, given this thread will lead to zero change in either education, the opinions of those with an ghráin for Irish or the prevalence of Irish so let me give you a tl:dr version.

It's not as simple as a yes or no. Language shifts are long term events that normally happen across about 2 generations. It takes proper planning and commitment to make it occur. It takes more than 3,5hrs in education. There needs to be economic drivers to it too. In our case there needs to be cultural shift to want to speak Irish in the home and English in the workplace.

So, how do most language shifts work to cause a language to become prominent?

I'd say 2 fold.

1. Schools become immersion schools running immersion tracks in the desired language. In our case we'd need a split 50/50 English and Irish system. We can remove the exams if you want but remaining subjects need to be taught through those mediums in parallel.

2. It becomes the used language of the state. All dealing with the state and all government business is done through the desired language (in our case Irish). Politics are done through Irish etc etc

This needs to be done across 20 years or so to allow for the change and for people to get irish to a level where it can actually work.

That's a very short answer to a very complex thing to achieve.

So is there a revival coming about soon? In a way, it's clear there is a grassroots revival occurring thanks to the Gaelscoileanna, social media, Pop up Gaeltacht, Duolingo etc What does that translate into long term for Irish in day to day Ireland? I'm honestly not sure.

A true bilingual state takes a lot of effort on the part of both the government and its people. You can decide for yourself if the will is there. This thread would say it's not, yet for some reason 1.7 million people (1 in 4) felt the need to claim they can speak Irish and 60% of the population believe it is important to use, promote and protect the Irish language according the the Red C poll done on election day.

Whether that's a romantic desire to want to speak the language or a real desire to become a bilingual state is also beyond me. I'd hazard a guess it's the former though.

Sardonicat · 04-06-2019 11:46am

That's an excellent answer and I agree that would be the only way to make Ireland bilingual. I wouldn't want those measures to be taken, however and I'm not sure how many would actually want them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-06-2019 12:02pm

Reati wrote: »

I've put far more time into this that I wanted too, given this thread will lead to zero change in either education, the opinions of those with an ghráin for Irish or the prevalence of Irish so let me give you a tl:dr version.

It's not as simple as a yes or no. Language shifts are long term events that normally happen across about 2 generations. It takes proper planning and commitment to make it occur. It takes more than 3,5hrs in education. There needs to be economic drivers to it too. In our case there needs to be cultural shift to want to speak Irish in the home and English in the workplace.

So, how do most language shifts work to cause a language to become prominent?

I'd say 2 fold.

1. Schools become immersion schools running immersion tracks in the desired language. In our case we'd need a split 50/50 English and Irish system. We can remove the exams if you want but remaining subjects need to be taught through those mediums in parallel.

2. It becomes the used language of the state. All dealing with the state and all government business is done through Irish. Politics are done through Irish etc etc

Your problem there (as you later point out, to be fair) is desire. People want their kids educated in the kids' first language, which is more often than not, going to be English. It'll also mean a lot of intelligent kids struggling with a new format (I would have been one of them: I regularly posted top grades in every subject, except Irish). This would have destroyed me as a capable and active student, and I'm guessing I wouldn't have been alone.

Education needs to be as stress free as possible.

And ultimately: if you have to use force, you've already lost.

This needs to be done across 20 years or so to allow for the change and for people to get irish to a level where it can actually work.

That's a very short answer to a very complex thing to achieve.

It might work if it was gradual laterally as well. For example make some optional subjects (such as geography or history) available in either English or Irish and let the student decide which one they want to do.

Again: if you have to use force, you've already lost.

So is there a revival coming about soon? In a way, it's clear there is a grassroots revival occurring thanks to the Gaelscoileanna, social media, Pop up Gaeltacht, Duolingo etc What does that translate into long term for Irish in day to day Ireland? I'm honestly not sure.

Because these are optional to the parents as well as the students. Good initiatives, but the work because they are optional.

If you have to use force...

A true bilingual state takes a lot of effort on the part of both the government and its people. You can decide for yourself if the will is there. This thread would say it's not, yet for some reason 1.7 million people (1 in 4) felt the need to claim they can speak Irish and 60% of the population believe it is important to use, promote and protect the Irish language according the the Red C poll done on election day.

Whether that's a romantic desire to want to speak the language or a real desire to become a bilingual state is also beyond me. I'd hazard a guess it's the former though.

The first one, definitely. And this is where your ideas fall down: you haven't considered how are you going to market the language in such a way that people move into category two (which involves said people learning the language and wanting their kids to learn it via immersive techniques) of their own accord.

Because - again - if you have to force people, the idea - whatever idea it is - simply won't work.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 04-06-2019 12:27pm

KathleenGrant wrote: »

The Anglo-irish treaty negotiations that de Velera didn't even attend you mean???

De Valera went to London before any of the other delegates and spoke with Lloyd George one on one. Maybe you should revise your junior cert history.

Reati · 04-06-2019 1:08pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Your problem there (as you later point out, to be fair) is desire. People want their kids educated in the kids' first language, which is more often than not, going to be English. It'll also mean a lot of intelligent kids struggling with a new format (I would have been one of them: I regularly posted top grades in every subject, except Irish). This would have destroyed me as a capable and active student, and I'm guessing I wouldn't have been alone.

Education needs to be as stress free as possible.

And ultimately: if you have to use force, you've already lost.

It might work if it was gradual laterally as well. For example make some optional subjects (such as geography or history) available in either English or Irish and let the student decide which one they want to do.

Again: if you have to use force, you've already lost.

Because these are optional to the parents as well as the students. Good initiatives, but the work because they are optional.

If you have to use force...

The first one, definitely. And this is where your ideas fall down: you haven't considered how are you going to market the language in such a way that people move into category two (which involves said people learning the language and wanting their kids to learn it via immersive techniques) of their own accord.

Because - again - if you have to force people, the idea - whatever idea it is - simply won't work.

You keep saying the word force. Not once in my post did I say force. It requires the will of the people to want truly a Bilingual state. It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal. That was exactly the last point I said I can't answer. If those 60% actually want the change and will put the effort in or just the romantic notion of it. Adding/Changing a primary language in a country is not easy. It actually needs a generation to take the hardship for the generation that comes after them. I don't think the current Irish generation are willing to do that.

edit: For clarification, I am not suggesting we replace English. I am suggesting we have both languages fluent and bilingual.

As an aside for discussions sake. With the benefit of hindsight and history the forcing of a language would win in the longer term. This is how English become dominant here and in India, how Spanish and Portuguese dominate South America and French in Africa for example. Those people didn't wake up one morning and say "jolly good, let's change our language." They were forced to through systemic changes to both education, governance and I guess ultimately economically. Now, that's a very big juicy carrot to attack me with so to be very very clear, that is not the approach I'm advocating or suggesting, but simply pointing out that it's how many countries went through language shifts.

whisky_galore · 04-06-2019 1:17pm

It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal.[/quote]

Sounds an awful lot like forcing to me, just phrasing it differently, almost like some diktat out of the former USSR.

Why can't language zealots accept that not everyone wants to learn it for whatever reason? Live and let live.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-06-2019 1:18pm

Reati wrote: »

You keep saying the word force. Not once in my post did I say force. It requires the will of the people to want truly a Bilingual state. It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal. That was exactly the last point I said I can't answer. If those 60% actually want the change and will put the effort in or just the romantic notion of it. Changing a primary language in a country is not easy. It actually needs a generation to take the hardship for the generation that comes after them. I don't think the current Irish generation are willing to do that.

I know I did - but in fairness you have hinted at opposition to compulsory Irish, which would indicate to me you truly haven't understood that force gets you nowhere.

Nor did you indicate HOW you'd swing attitudes towards being supportive of your ideas. Or what you would do in the face of mass opposition.

As an aside for discussions sake. With the benefit of hindsight and history the forcing of a language would win in the longer term. This is how English become dominant here and in India, how Spanish and Portuguese dominate South America and French in Africa for example. Those people didn't wake up one morning and say "jolly good, let's change our language." They were forced to through systemic changes to both education, governance and I guess ultimately economically. Now, that's a very big juicy carrot to attack me with so to be very very clear, that is not the approach I'm advocating or suggesting, but simply pointing out that it's how many countries went through language shifts.

And if it's not the approach you're advocating, it's irrelevant. The question again is: how do you swing attitudes in favour of your ideas?

Reati · 04-06-2019 1:21pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

It requires an acceptance that people will need to put up with a few years of toughness to achieve the end goal.

Sounds an awful lot like forcing to me, just phrasing it differently, almost like some diktat out of the former USSR.

Why can't language zealots accept that not everyone wants to learn it for whatever reason? Live and let live.

Even when you quote out of context like you have it doesn't.

Why do zealots find a need to attack Irish language and speakers constantly? Amazingly I don't go around ask people why they send they kids to English medium schools but people are more than happy to tell me when I shouldn't send my kids to a Gaelscoil.

Reati · 04-06-2019 1:33pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know I did - but in fairness you have hinted at opposition to compulsory Irish, which would indicate to me you truly haven't understood that force gets you nowhere.

I hinted or did I state it? I'm too lazy to look back

Feel free to score a point (as I think that's the end goal of this now) on whatever I might have typed while replying to many people across the posts in here as proof I'm wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Nor did you indicate HOW you'd swing attitudes towards being supportive of your ideas. Or what you would do in the face of mass opposition.

You asked how a revival could be achieved. I answered your question and this question within it. It's not up to me to force people to find their internal value for Irish. The 60% of people in Ireland are claiming they have this desire have to show it's real. The same is said for the polls showing a United Ireland is desired yet I don't know that people actually want it when push comes to shove.

The opposition question is loaded. I imagine the status quo wouldn't change though. If there was such an opposition it would have been a platform ran on long ago I'd have thought.
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Sardonicat · 04-06-2019 1:33pm

Who here on this thread has attacked the Irish language or speakers? Some have said they don't want to learn it or speak it. That's not attacking it. Several, myself included, have recounted the abysmal (and, given the official standing of Irish crimina)l way it was taught to them. Criminal because they failed in their duty to teach a language that is an official language of the state, and insist is part of our heritage and culture, thereby denying me and thousands, if not millions over the years, that aspect of our heritage and culture. In response to that we get claims that Irish gets great marks, as though those of us who left school without it (despite obtaining a decent grade in the LC!) are either too stupid or lazy to learn it.

Irish language revival

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