How to train as an electrician

2011

Stoner wrote: »

For what its worth, in a former life I looked after the apprentices in a company.

Over 20 years ago I changed the entry level to the company to requiring a leaving cert with a pass in ordinary maths and English.

Quite a few of the larger companies have done this (as no doubt you know).

My own experience in engineering we had a weeder year in first year, 60-70 percent failure rate a 150 class became 40 people.

Apples and oranges in my opinion.

During my apprenticeship I can honestly say that the maths was nothing beyond what I had covered in secondary school for pass Leaving Certificate. In reality it was all revision. During my degree maths in week 1 of 1st year delved into new material (for me).

I must admit I always found maths a difficult subject and had to get a lot of help. I did pass maths in the leaving certificate, although I achieved a high grade I wouldn’t pretend to have a natural ability. I got there thanks to the help and patience of others.

You certainly can and your need to get your maths up OP.

I would suggest buying a maths book that covers honors Junior Certificate syllabus. If you can cope with that you are up to speed.

Stoner

2011 wrote:

Quite a few of the larger companies have done this (as no doubt you know).

Yes it's been mentioned. I was offering real information around why it was done.
At that time just two companies did it (at the same time) following discussions with FAS. I'd a decent database with some stats on same.

2011 wrote:

Apples and oranges in my opinion.

Possibly you are missing the point.
It's about identifying and letting people know early if they can handle it or not, being fair

letting someone know in first year rather than 3rd year, also at that time many lads were in year 4 before the finished phase 4.
Plenty of people quit something after giving it one year. 3 or 4 is more difficult


The initial standards based apprenticeship was a huge improvements but weighted incorrect.

This has been recognised and a revisions board made some alterations to same.

The time based apprenticeship and the standards based one is closer to apples and oranges. In the old system you could practice without completing the course, on a junior trade.

Are you familiar with the standards based format? Have you seen the data on the failure rates over the different phases?

I agree that pass maths in the leaving certificate is fine for it.

I'm familiar with the maths on your course and others, content changes a lot faster in the colleges and universities. There are more routes into most things now bar medicine.

It's more difficult to change the format of trades with unions, employers groups, government and education input and concerns.
It's been a while since I was involved in any revisions of it, but it can be tricky and political as you can imagine.

Willy Speareshake

Stoner wrote: »

For what its worth, in a former life I looked after the apprentices in a company.

Over 20 years ago I changed the entry level to the company to requiring a leaving cert with a pass in ordinary maths and English.

I found that we were struggling to get lads through phase 4 on the technical subjects.

This nailed the issue,I kept a detailed database on it at the time, sent lads off with a junior cert and told them to come back when they had a leaving cert, a few did and we hired them, good lads.

My own experience in engineering we had a weeder year in first year, 60-70 percent failure rate a 150 class became 40 people.

Thing is you only wasted one year but it's hard to tell a 3rd year that they've failed and can't repeat.

Phase 2 should be the difficult year so people haven't invested so much time in it.

I got some way discussing same with the education body at time. Ground has been made up since, but people still struggle with the idea that you can fail in a trade.

You certainly can and your need to get your maths up OP.

Hi Stoner, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with this, it's good to know the realistic aspects of it all
So would you recommend to study for Leaving Cert maths and then try to apply for companies? Or perhaps a PLC to cover the maths required in apprenticeships?

Willy Speareshake

salmocab wrote: »

OP something that might be worth investigating is if he plans to move back to America how the qualification would travel and what he’d have to do over there to be recognized.

Very good idea thank you, he has been doing some research about this I believe, I think as far as he's told me that there is a large amount of classroom hours required, as well as the actual practical training in an electrical company

Willy Speareshake

2011 wrote: »

Quite a few of the larger companies have done this (as no doubt you know).



Apples and oranges in my opinion.

During my apprenticeship I can honestly say that the maths was nothing beyond what I had covered in secondary school for pass Leaving Certificate. In reality it was all revision. During my degree maths in week 1 of 1st year delved into new material (for me).

I must admit I always found maths a difficult subject and had to get a lot of help. I did pass maths in the leaving certificate, although I achieved a high grade I wouldn’t pretend to have a natural ability. I got there thanks to the help and patience of others.



I would suggest buying a maths book that covers honors Junior Certificate syllabus. If you can cope with that you are up to speed.

Okay so some differing opinions here I take it...
I have some fairly newish Junior Cert books lying around, maybe from around 5/6 years ago, I'd think that should be sufficiently up to date? Not sure if that's the "project maths" syllabus or not. Would project maths be helpful for apprentice do you think?
Either way, I will find some JC books and get him to take a look but I'm pretty sure he is mathematically capable at that stage at the very least

Willy Speareshake

Stoner wrote: »

Yes it's been mentioned. I was offering real information around why it was done.
At that time just two companies did it (at the same time) following discussions with FAS. I'd a decent database with some stats on same.



Possibly you are missing the point.
It's about identifying and letting people know early if they can handle it or not, being fair

letting someone know in first year rather than 3rd year, also at that time many lads were in year 4 before the finished phase 4.
Plenty of people quit something after giving it one year. 3 or 4 is more difficult


The initial standards based apprenticeship was a huge improvements but weighted incorrect.

This has been recognised and a revisions board made some alterations to same.

The time based apprenticeship and the standards based one is closer to apples and oranges. In the old system you could practice without completing the course, on a junior trade.

Are you familiar with the standards based format? Have you seen the data on the failure rates over the different phases?

I agree that pass maths in the leaving certificate is fine for it.

I'm familiar with the maths on your course and others, content changes a lot faster in the colleges and universities. There are more routes into most things now bar medicine.

It's more difficult to change the format of trades with unions, employers groups, government and education input and concerns.
It's been a while since I was involved in any revisions of it, but it can be tricky and political as you can imagine.

Thank you again for your in-depth knowledge about all of this Stoner, I really do appreciate hearing the reality of the situation. I understand completely what you mean about giving up after 3 years being extremely difficult, the more time you spend invested in anything will make it hard to accept a failure.
It is a pity there is no more junior trade as you referred to. Is there anything like this at all so lads can find out if this is a suitable trade for them or not?

Stoner

Willy Speareshake wrote:

Thank you again for your in-depth knowledge about all of this Stoner, I really do appreciate hearing the reality of the situation. I understand completely what you mean about giving up after 3 years being extremely difficult, the more time you spend invested in anything will make it hard to accept a failure. It is a pity there is no more junior trade as you referred to. Is there anything like this at all so lads can find out if this is a suitable trade for them or not?

It's not really a lot of info that you need willy. But yes that is the point.
It was more that you'd need a bit more maths than junior cert. As 2011 suggests a leaving cert book and look at complex numbers. YouTube.

Its very very achievable, but back in the day people (some) didn't want the age and entry standard raised, but the standard and requirement to pass all the exams was. So that left covered over a bit of a route to getting qualified that the old system had.

2011

Willy Speareshake wrote: »

Okay so some differing opinions here I take it...

No, not really differing options. I think Stoner’s post (#33 above) explains it best. I agree with this position 100%

Willy Speareshake

Stoner wrote: »

It's not really a lot of info that you need willy. But yes that is the point.
It was more that you'd need a bit more maths than junior cert. As 2011 suggests a leaving cert book and look at complex numbers. YouTube.

Its very very achievable, but back in the day people (some) didn't want the age and entry standard raised, but the standard and requirement to pass all the exams was. So that left covered over a bit of a route to getting qualified that the old system had.

I will recommend this, thank you. Can I ask, I understand that a higher maths standard is required for the apprenticeship, but when you're fully trained and qualified as an electrician, is the maths applicable? Would this high standard of maths be required in the daily life of an electrician I mean?

Willy Speareshake

2011 wrote: »

No, not really differing options. I think Stoner’s post (#33 above) explains it best. I agree with this position 100%

Sorry didn't really mean totally different, further considerations of the same issure I suppose
But thank you for explaining the maths standard to me

knipex

Willy Speareshake wrote: »

I will recommend this, thank you. Can I ask, I understand that a higher maths standard is required for the apprenticeship, but when you're fully trained and qualified as an electrician, is the maths applicable? Would this high standard of maths be required in the daily life of an electrician I mean?

It really depends on the actual trade chosen and the role they want within thaty trade.

I know guys that qualified as an electrican.

That work in technician \ engineer rolls who focus heavily on robotics, automation, PLC's, etc.

That wire houses, shops etc.

That work on larger project's building and installing high-voltage panes.

All the same qualification but vastly different jobs.

Leaving cert Math's is very broad. He wont need leaving cert statistics, calculus etc but will need Trigonometry

To be fair Trigonometry is required for a lot of trades and should be a core requirement. Its not rocket science level but a decent understanding of the practical applications (which is the biggest failing of leaving cert math). its more than the actual math training though its a mindset, if he the "that type" of individual. Do they have the real interest in understanding and fixing stuff, will they put in the effort to understand the basic of Boolean logic and basic ladder and list programming of PLC's or will they just say, "I dont get that" and give up. None of it is rocket science, its a basic introduction and if you need more for your work then you lean on the job or you teach yourself.

Personally I think its a fantastic opportunity, its a trade that gives you an introduction to so much and the basic understanding to take it further if you want to. No one forces you to but its a qualification and a trade you can take as far as you want in any direction you want. I know sparks that ended up in technical sales, more than one who ended up as programmers or engineers, a multitude who ended up as senior management within organizations from Manufacturing, service and construction sectors. Plus the untold number that ended up setting up their own companies or as self employed trades people.


Its not "just" wiring houses,..

Willy Speareshake

knipex wrote: »

It really depends on the actual trade chosen and the role they want within thaty trade.

I know guys that qualified as an electrican.

That work in technician \ engineer rolls who focus heavily on robotics, automation, PLC's, etc.

That wire houses, shops etc.

That work on larger project's building and installing high-voltage panes.

All the same qualification but vastly different jobs.

Leaving cert Math's is very broad. He wont need leaving cert statistics, calculus etc but will need Trigonometry

To be fair Trigonometry is required for a lot of trades and should be a core requirement. Its not rocket science level but a decent understanding of the practical applications (which is the biggest failing of leaving cert math). its more than the actual math training though its a mindset, if he the "that type" of individual. Do they have the real interest in understanding and fixing stuff, will they put in the effort to understand the basic of Boolean logic and basic ladder and list programming of PLC's or will they just say, "I dont get that" and give up. None of it is rocket science, its a basic introduction and if you need more for your work then you lean on the job or you teach yourself.

Personally I think its a fantastic opportunity, its a trade that gives you an introduction to so much and the basic understanding to take it further if you want to. No one forces you to but its a qualification and a trade you can take as far as you want in any direction you want. I know sparks that ended up in technical sales, more than one who ended up as programmers or engineers, a multitude who ended up as senior management within organizations from Manufacturing, service and construction sectors. Plus the untold number that ended up setting up their own companies or as self employed trades people.


Its not "just" wiring houses,..

knipex, thank you so much for going into such depth about the diverse field of the trade. I completely understand the determined mindset that is required
Do you know if there is anything like a post leaving cert or something a step under to try out the trade first before having to commit to it?

knipex

Willy Speareshake wrote: »

knipex, thank you so much for going into such depth about the diverse field of the trade. I completely understand the determined mindset that is required
Do you know if there is anything like a post leaving cert or something a step under to try out the trade first before having to commit to it?

Nothing useful that I am aware of.

If he wants to do the trade then go for it. It takes 4 years and he will get paid during the training. No college debt.

If after a year it doesn't work out then it doesn't work out but unless he has a genuine interest then he is wasting his time and the employers time.

Find an apprenticeship in a field that interests him,

Willy Speareshake

knipex wrote: »

Nothing useful that I am aware of.

If he wants to do the trade then go for it. It takes 4 years and he will get paid during the training. No college debt.

If after a year it doesn't work out then it doesn't work out but unless he has a genuine interest then he is wasting his time and the employers time.

Find an apprenticeship in a field that interests him,

He does have a genuine interest however it is hard to decide what to do with the rest of your life when you're only a teenager, things change and you learn more about yourself as life goes on
It is definitely a trade that interests him, but as you mentioned the multitude of routes he could take with an electrician trade, this would probably be more suitable for him in terms of having further options after being qualified