Surveyor missed leaky flat roof

katie275

I've recently bought a house and had a structural survey done before signing contracts. We had a rewire done last week and the electrician found serious water damage in the ceiling in the kitchen and one of the downstairs rooms which are part of the extension. Had a builder out yesterday and he said the flat roof of the extension is in total disrepair and will cost about €12k to fix. The top of the flat roof can be seen from the bathroom window (pics attached). The surveyor completely missed the flat roof in his report. He noted water staining in the upstairs master bedroom only. Do I have any recourse here? I paid him over €700

listermint

Surveys do not include internal or behind wall or ceiling examination. So you can't have asked the surveyor for that.

Unless you explicitly asked for a survey on that roof then there is no blame to be apportioned.

The images you attached are very difficult to read tbh. And I'm not seeing any real obvious roof replacement in any of them

Is their wood rot is there any degredation in the flat of the roof.

Builders won't refuse money. Always remember that. Is there any current leaks because you know water stains can be historical and have been rectified.

Bonzo Delaney

listermint wrote: »

Surveys do not include internal or behind wall or ceiling examination. So you can't have asked the surveyor for that.

Unless you explicitly asked for a survey on that roof then there is no blame to be apportioned.

The images you attached are very difficult to read tbh. And I'm not seeing any real obvious roof replacement in any of them

Is their wood rot is there any degredation in the flat of the roof.

Builders won't refuse money. Always remember that. Is there any current leaks because you know water stains can be historical and have been rectified.

Have a look at the pics of the flat roof even Stevie wonder would of seen the outline of each joist showing through the torch on felt . Showing the fact that the chip board decking underneath is shot.
I don't know where the op stands legally with the surveror but they should of recommended a torch on flat roof be replaced anyway after 25year considering the state it's in and age of the property.

listermint

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Have a look at the pics of the flat roof even Stevie wonder would of seen the outline of each joist showing through the torch on felt . Showing the fact that the chip board decking underneath is shot.
I don't know where the op stands legally with the surveror but they should of recommended a torch on flat roof be replaced anyway after 25year considering the state it's in and age of the property.

Fair

Gremlinertia

Fourth picture looks like a sheet of patch board put up at some point. Being used to a few bad flat roof jobs I would have thought that would be something worth investigating

ted1

12k is very steep for a flat roof. Get other quotes.
Allow 100 a beam. Say 15, that’s 1,500, a few sheets of ply, 250 , then felt on top, plaster and skim.

So you are being charged 8k for a weeks labour.

katie275

The report also said that all rooms had external vents, the downstairs bathroom and one of the downstairs rooms had no vents.

SuperS54

ted1 wrote: »

12k is very steep for a flat roof. Get other quotes.
Allow 100 a beam. Say 15, that’s 1,500, a few sheets of ply, 250 , then felt on top, plaster and skim.

So you are being charged 8k for a weeks labour.

Do you think the electrician will redo all the wiring for free?

godtabh

katie275 wrote: »

The report also said that all rooms had external vents, the downstairs bathroom and one of the downstairs rooms had no vents.

Bring it to court and see where that gets you. Other than that you probably have little recourse

ted1

SuperS54 wrote: »

Do you think the electrician will redo all the wiring for free?

A couple of down lighters and sockets ? The cables are there if the builder disconnects them and puts them back when he does the fix , then it’s just an hours work for a sparks to reterminate.

Bonzo Delaney

ted1 wrote: »

12k is very steep for a flat roof. Get other quotes.
Allow 100 a beam. Say 15, that’s 1,500, a few sheets of ply, 250 , then felt on top, plaster and skim.

So you are being charged 8k for a weeks labour.

If it's 40m2 I make it out about 10.5 k for a full replacement warm deck fibre glass roof
So price not too far off depending on access location ect
It would cost company at least 1k a day to send 3 workers out.

SuperS54

ted1 wrote: »

A couple of down lighters and sockets ? The cables are there if the builder disconnects them and puts them back when he does the fix , then it’s just an hours work for a sparks to reterminate.

Schools will all be on holidays soon, perhaps the OP can grab one of the neighbours kids to do the rewire, would be cheaper still.

ted1

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

If it's 40m2 I make it out about 10.5 k for a full replacement warm deck fibre glass roof
So price not too far off depending on access location ect
It would cost company at least 1k a day to send 3 workers out.

Not a fan of fibre glass roofs, they are expensive and often leak.

Nothing wrong with torch on felt.

ted1

SuperS54 wrote: »

Schools will all be on holidays soon, perhaps the OP can grab one of the neighbours kids to do the rewire, would be cheaper still.

Why do you think it needs rewiring? Do you not think the existing cables can be reused ? And just reterminated ? It’s also only 1 room.

Bonzo Delaney

ted1 wrote: »

Not a fan of fibre glass roofs, they are expensive and often leak.

Nothing wrong with torch on felt.

Been doing them 12 years and never a problem
Same with torch on 20 years
Every product is poor if installed incorrectly.

katie275

ted1 wrote: »

Why do you think it needs rewiring? Do you not think the existing cables can be reused ? And just reterminated ? It’s also only 1 room.

It’s not one room, it’s half of the kitchen, 3 bedrooms and a bathroom and utility area

JustAThought

katie275 wrote: »

It’s not one room, it’s half of the kitchen, 3 bedrooms and a bathroom and utility area

Have you tried getting back onto him/her and complaining? Then after that get onto the represantative surbeyors oversight body and lodge a formal complaint against them. If you have paid ask for it to be refunded thou they may be entitled to offer a part refund only. Or pay under duress and state that Then small claims (2 1/2k if this hssnt changed) or civil court claim for damages to have roof repair costs done. Might put manners on them. +1 for roof qoutes.

BarryD2

ted1 wrote: »

Not a fan of fibre glass roofs, they are expensive and often leak. Nothing wrong with torch on felt.

Not a fan of flat roofs! If I was thinking of buying any property with a flat roof, I'd be looking suspiciously at it, regardless of what surveyor writes!

BryanF

JustAThought wrote: »

Have you tried getting back onto him/her and complaining? Then after that get onto the represantative surbeyors oversight body and lodge a formal complaint against them. If you have paid ask for it to be refunded thou they may be entitled to offer a part refund only. Or pay under duress and state that Then small claims (2 1/2k if this hssnt changed) or civil court claim for damages to have roof repair costs done. Might put manners on them. +1 for roof qoutes.

have you done this before? Have you any basis for the advice above?

OP,
Caveat emptor
The survey carried out a visual survey only.

This will have been clearly stated on the survey documentation received.

As regards the prices quoted. Suggest you clearly define the roof & electrical scope and get 3 quotes. Assuming 40m2, 12k would not be unreasonable in the current climate

katie275

Yes, but I hired a professional to spot any areas of concern that my non professional eye wouldn’t. The flat roof was not mentioned at all in the report, even though it is visible from the upstairs bathroom window. I wouldn’t have known the roof was in poor condition until my builder saw the patched up ceilings and went to look at the roof. I certainly would have tried to negotiate the sale price down had I known the roof needed to be replaced

Gumbo

OP,

You did not get a structural survey carried out. You got a pretty purchase visual survey.

From doing these over the years, structural surveys cannot be carried out without invasive works which doesn’t happen in 99.99% of surveys as it’s not your property at that stage to authorize the works.

Can you post up a complete scan of the survey. I’d be surprised if there was t a foot not in the flat roof.

Also worth bearing in mind that nearly all insurance companies I’ve dealt with required flat roof recovering every 10 years to keep them covered.

katie275

The surveyors name and company are on the report so probably shouldn’t post the whole thing? I’ve attached the roof section comments in a pic.
Maybe I have no case here but my builder said the surveyor should have picked up on the condition of the flat roof. The report also incorrectly states that all rooms have external vents
I know a flat roof needs to be maintained / re-covered but here we are talking about the whole thing needs replaced.

Bonzo Delaney

katie275 wrote: »

The surveyors name and company are on the report so probably shouldn’t post the whole thing? I’ve attached the roof section comments in a pic.
Maybe I have no case here but my builder said the surveyor should have picked up on the condition of the flat roof. The report also incorrectly states that all rooms have external vents
I know a flat roof needs to be maintained / re-covered but here we are talking about the whole thing needs replaced.

They're sort of covering themselves there in fairness by putting the ball back in your court by sugesting to engage a roofer to survey.
Still a head and shoulders report should of alerted you to the condition of the flat roof as it's clearly visible in the photo

sydthebeat

katie275 wrote: »

The surveyors name and company are on the report so probably shouldn’t post the whole thing? I’ve attached the roof section comments in a pic.
Maybe I have no case here but my builder said the surveyor should have picked up on the condition of the flat roof. The report also incorrectly states that all rooms have external vents
I know a flat roof needs to be maintained / re-covered but here we are talking about the whole thing needs replaced.

You can't have a "head and shoulders" view of a flat roof.

Bonzo Delaney

sydthebeat wrote: »

You can't have a "head and shoulders" view of a flat roof.

When you look out the bathroom window you can
It just seems such an obvious item to over look from a so called profesional in a survey report in fairness flat roofs are generally a red flag item in most surveys especially when it comes to insurance cover .

sydthebeat

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

When you look out the bathroom window you can
It just seems such an obvious item to over look from a so called profesional in a survey report in fairness flat roofs are generally a red flag item in most surveys especially when it comes to insurance cover .

No you can't.

You can't have a "head and shoulders" view of a flat roof....

"head and shoulders" means the surveyor popped their head into the attic hatch to comment on the roof construction.

At €700 I'd at least expect them to at least enter the attic and check all roof timbers for moisture levels and signs of decay

My point is that there doesn't seem to be any comment on the flat roof. Well not in the section that was quoted anyway

Gumbo

katie275 wrote: »

The surveyors name and company are on the report so probably shouldn’t post the whole thing? I’ve attached the roof section comments in a pic.
Maybe I have no case here but my builder said the surveyor should have picked up on the condition of the flat roof. The report also incorrectly states that all rooms have external vents
I know a flat roof needs to be maintained / re-covered but here we are talking about the whole thing needs replaced.

That relates to the main roof. I would have expected to see some comment in the flat roof. I’d put it under a specific section within the report and state that it is in place and that it should be inspected by a competent roofer to confirm it’s condition and to also check with their insurance company as to their requirements for cover.

But, the Surveyor May have picked up on it under a different heading such as additions or extensions. Is there any mention of certs for planing and building regulation for any extension?

katie275

kceire wrote: »

But, the Surveyor May have picked up on it under a different heading such as additions or extensions. Is there any mention of certs for planing and building regulation for any extension?

Regarding the extension, the report said there was no record of planning permission for the extension and that we should seek compliance certificates for planning and building regulations. I’ve read the whole report thoroughly and there’s no mention of the flat roof

Gumbo

katie275 wrote: »

Regarding the extension, the report said there was no record of planning permission for the extension and that we should seek compliance certificates for planning and building regulations. I’ve read the whole report thoroughly and there’s no mention of the flat roof

Building regulation compliance could cover it under part a structure and part d workmanship.

It would then put the onus on the vendor.

I would have still mentioned the flat roof to be honest to at least make the buyer aware that it “may” need investigation at some stage.

Calahonda52

In any event insulation as shown is pretty NFG anyway, as well as not been sleeved around the fibre glass.

You bought without compliance so was it a cash purchase: you may not be able to sell without getting that sorted.

Have you explicitly told your insurance company that there is x m2 of flat roof

antix80

I'd be surprised if the surveyor wasn't at pains to highlight that the roof could be unreliable, given the area it covers, cost involved to replace, age, and presence of water damage to ceiling.
It's the kind of thing you'd highlight in a report and make the buyer initial!

Not saying that's how surveys work, or what you paid for. But anyone involved in that area really shouldn't rely on small-print to get them off doing their due diligence IMO.

As for going to court... That's another expense and there's a chance you won't win. But nothing stopping your solicitor from sending a strongly worded demand.

katie275

I'm looking at the photo file the surveyor sent me, I can see that he had a step ladder in the pictures, he would have been able to see the flat roof easily surely had he looked? He took a photo of inside the attic which is accessed via the bathroom ceiling. Out of 60 odd photos, not one of the flat roof

Calahonda52

katie275 wrote: »

I'm looking at the photo file the surveyor sent me, I can see that he had a step ladder in the pictures, he would have been able to see the flat roof easily surely had he looked? He took a photo of inside the attic which is accessed via the bathroom ceiling. Out of 60 odd photos, not one of the flat roof

See comments re head and shoulders above.
The attic was done this way

In passing, did you buy the house without seller rectifying the planning issues?

katie275

Calahonda52 wrote: »

See comments re head and shoulders above.
The attic was done this way

In passing, did you buy the house without seller rectifying the planning issues?

Our vendors were unable to provide a copy to our solicitor, he advised us that this might possibly put off a potential buyer if we were to sell down the line. But this is our forever home so wasn't a deal breaker for us (there is no risk of enforcement action because the extension was built well over 5 years ago)

Gumbo

katie275 wrote: »

Our vendors were unable to provide a copy to our solicitor, he advised us that this might possibly put off a potential buyer if we were to sell down the line. But this is our forever home so wasn't a deal breaker for us (there is no risk of enforcement action because the extension was built well over 5 years ago)

There in lies the problem. This would have been flagged in the certification process in my opinion.

Did you mention the rear extension to the bank you borrowed from? As its possible the Surveyor didn't mention it, as if the issues is highlighted, then the lender wont release funds.

Similar things happen around vehicular entrance alterations etc

katie275

kceire wrote: »

There in lies the problem. This would have been flagged in the certification process in my opinion.

Did you mention the rear extension to the bank you borrowed from? As its possible the Surveyor didn't mention it, as if the issues is highlighted, then the lender wont release funds.

Similar things happen around vehicular entrance alterations etc

No we didn't mention to the bank, the bank sent their own valuer, we hired the surveyor independently

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

..

Have you explicitly told your insurance company that there is x m2 of flat roof

OP: what about this question?

Gumbo

katie275 wrote: »

No we didn't mention to the bank, the bank sent their own valuer, we hired the surveyor independently

The banks valued doesn’t check for planning compliance, boundary issues or extensions. That’s what your Surveyor is for.

Maybe that’s why he didn’t mention it. Maybe someone told him if he do, it would stop the sale.

katie275

kceire wrote: »

The banks valued doesn’t check for planning compliance, boundary issues or extensions. That’s what your Surveyor is for.

Maybe that’s why he didn’t mention it. Maybe someone told him if he do, it would stop the sale.

I see what you're saying but we hired him to check that the property was structurally sound, our solicitor was taking care of the legal side of things

Gumbo

katie275 wrote: »

I see what you're saying but we hired him to check that the property was structurally sound, our solicitor was taking care of the legal side of things

The solicitor doesn’t look at the planning and building regulation side of things. That’s your Surveyor.

A Building Surveyor cannot determine structure during a pre purchase survey. That’s what a structural engineer is for and requires opening up works.

katie275

kceire wrote: »

The solicitor doesn’t look at the planning and building regulation side of things. That’s your Surveyor.

A Building Surveyor cannot determine structure during a pre purchase survey. That’s what a structural engineer is for and requires opening up works.

I understand that the pre purchase survey is limited, but my original point is that he completely omitted the flat roof from the survey in the first place. Thanks for your input I appreciate it! If you are interested in looking I can send you a copy of the survey

olestoepoke

Hi, may I ask the OP, where did you find the surveyor in question. Who gave you his number?

katie275

olestoepoke wrote: »

Hi, may I ask the OP, where did you find the surveyor in question. Who gave you his number?

Our mortgage broker recommended him

katie275

Photo attached after the rain today

Bonzo Delaney

katie275 wrote: »

Photo attached after the rain today

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that roof is beyond saving
What ever you do don't get up on it as it looks completely rotten.
On the bright side putting a new roof on it now will be a 30yr job minimum once done correctly and it'll be properly insulated and also scope to install a roof light if needed. While the house is still a work site
I know it's a cost you hadn't intended or have to spend on now but it would of had to of been attacked some time in the near future .
Pain in the arse I know.

Gumbo

Fibreglass companies can do it for about 40e per square meter, based on their Facebook pages.

ted1

kceire wrote: »

Fibreglass companies can do it for about 40e per square meter, based on their Facebook pages.

I really advise against fibre glass. I know someone here says they install it and it’s good. But I know about 6 people who have it and all have had leaks and they had different installers

BryanF

ted1 wrote: »

I really advise against fibre glass. I know someone here says they install it and it’s good. But I know about 6 people who have it and all have had leaks and they had different installers

Really need to read the fine print on warranty and data sheet with fibre glass. Sun light breaks down some products.

Suggest the OP gets a joint warranty for overall roof if (manufacturer and builder/roofer) if the builder recommends fibre glass.

Gumbo

ted1 wrote: »

I really advise against fibre glass. I know someone here says they install it and it’s good. But I know about 6 people who have it and all have had leaks and they had different installers

Any other options for a small side entrance roof infill?

Calahonda52

So: If I am reading the thread this far correctly.
Mortgage broker organises the surveyor
Surveyor stays silent on planning and roof.
Bank lends money.
Mortgage broker gets commission.
QED perhaps

Bonzo Delaney

Calahonda52 wrote: »

So: If I am reading the thread this far correctly.
Mortgage broker organises the surveyor
Surveyor stays silent on planning and roof.
Bank lends money.
Mortgage broker gets commission.
QED perhaps

Yeah the crux of the thread is that regardless of which flat roof is best if any.
The OP paid for a product that wasn't what she tought it was.
I'd imagine she's no come back due to definitions and small print unfortunately.
Hindsight is great but an independent Surveyor would of mentioned all concerning issues .
Chalk it down to experience and enjoy the house when it's finished .