Is America treating the UK like a colony?

Blinky Plebum

InTheShadows wrote: »

They'll be worse and always have. Look at the pathetic fawning over Obama last time he was here. It's hilarious to hear people giving out about the British considering the way we act here in this country.

We know what we are, we've been kissing the Americans arses for decades and we're very happy to do it.

We don't view ourselves as some power that would above that type of behaviour, the British however do.

Auguste Comte

The real world threat to Ireland and her citizens doesn't come from Russia.

yrreg0850

Woke Hogan wrote: »

The US treats virtually every country as a colony. How many American army bases are there around the world? How many leaders have they deposed in other countries? They've been running riot since the Monroe Doctrine.

If Trump was in any other country the U.S who would be trying to depose him.

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

so it hides behind Britain and the US?

If you look at it that way A the UK hides behind America. It also hid behind the EU in terms of trade but they didn't realise it. The best outcome is an EU army.

AdamD

Aegir wrote: »

Russian bombers enter UK Airspace, RAF escorts them until they clear off.

Russian Bombers enter Irish airspace, RAF escorts them until they clear off...then tell the Irish who knew nothing about the two bombers flying across international air lanes with no transponders on, in an area that it is their duty to control.

no US involvement whatsoever.

Do you honestly believe we're under threat of bombing from Russia? We are of complete insignificance to them.

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

Do you honestly believe we're under threat of bombing from Russia? We are of complete insignificance to them.

No, Ireland certainly isn’t.

They are expected to have some plan for controlling their airspace beyond “call the Brits”.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

If you look at it that way A the UK hides behind America. It also hid behind the EU in terms of trade but they didn't realise it. The best outcome is an EU army.

So Ireland can hide behind an EU army?

AdamD

Aegir wrote: »

No, Ireland certainly isn’t.

They are expected to have some plan for controlling their airspace beyond “call the Brits”.

Against what? :pac:

This couldn't be any lower down on the list of priorities I'd like our government to put money towards. Defending our air space against non existent threats

Blinky Plebum

Aegir wrote: »

So Ireland can hide behind an EU army?

Ireland and every other country in the EU.

We're a small country with nothing of real interest that some other country would want to invade us.

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

So Ireland can hide behind an EU army?

A is your phrase of the week "hide behind"?

threeball

recedite wrote: »

I certainly am.

Trump is selling weapons like they're going out of fashion and turning a blind eye to how they're used. It doesn't matter if the US drop the bomb themselves or supply the weaponry then hold their hands up saying "hey nothing to do with me". Thats just war by proxy and they're every bit as culpable as if Uncle Sam himself dropped it.

RustyNut

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

Ireland and every other country in the EU.

We're a small country with nothing of real interest that some other country would want to invade us.

Here is an example of a real threat Irish people face from foreign military operations in and around Irish territory.

Nothing to do with the Russians.

IT WAS just after 1pm on a clear, calm day on the Irish Sea, 25 miles off Howth.

A number of trawlers were hunting for prawns. One of those boats was the 70ft Sharelga.

Raymond McEvoy from Chapel Road in Clogherhead had bought her just before Christmas 1981, a big investment at the time and she needed to deliver.

His brother Philip was on board with him, his uncle, Noel Kirwan, brother-in-law Mickey Kelly and Gabriel Hesnan from Kildalkey who had been in the fishing game since the previous summer.

Suddenly, the Sharelga began to stop in the water and within moments terror struck.

The boat lurched backwards and continued to speed across the sea. The crew made frantic efforts to hold on to whatever they could as the stricken vessel ripped through the water at speed.

At first it was a strange kind of experience, Hesnan would later say 'we were laughing and saying maybe it's a whale!'

But the seriousness of the situation soon began to descend on the men as the boat sunk lower in the water, still being dragged fiercely along.

After about two miles and 20 minutes of concern, the boat swung to its side and that was it.

As she succumbed to the water, the men scrambled onto the keel, before finally jumping overboard.

Mickey Kelly couldn't swim and he stayed on the last piece of the vessel until he too crashed into the water. Skipper McEvoy swam to him immediately and slung a lifebelt over his arm.

Within moments the boat disappeared.

Berserker

threeball wrote: »

Trump is selling weapons like they're going out of fashion and turning a blind eye to how they're used. It doesn't matter if the US drop the bomb themselves or supply the weaponry then hold their hands up saying "hey nothing to do with me". Thats just war by proxy and they're every bit as culpable as if Uncle Sam himself dropped it.

Every US president in my living memory has sold weapons to anyone and everyone.

recedite

threeball wrote: »

Trump is selling weapons like they're going out of fashion.

Maybe they are going out of fashion; the US army is obviously not consuming (or expending?) enough of them since Trump became president.

fryup

i love the way he pointed at the queen and said.."great woman great great woman"

Del.Monte

steddyeddy wrote: »

If you look at it that way A the UK hides behind America. It also hid behind the EU in terms of trade but they didn't realise it. The best outcome is an EU army.

I take it you're too old to be conscripted into the EU army?

Blinky Plebum

RustyNut wrote: »

Here is an example of a real threat Irish people face from foreign military operations in and around Irish territory.

Nothing to do with the Russians.

The Sharelga was sunk due to a British submarine (who according to some here are our great protectors), also it happened nearly 40 years ago and was an accident.

threeball

Berserker wrote: »

Every US president in my living memory has sold weapons to anyone and everyone.

My point is that just because the US isn't officially at war it's still running wars by proxy. Its not because Trump is adverse to war or it's consequences

recedite

threeball wrote: »

My point is that just because the US isn't officially at war it's still running wars by proxy. Its not because Trump is adverse to war or it's consequences

I love how some people can still cling to their preconceived opinion, even when all the evidence is against it

odyssey06

Sense of perspective here on when the red carpet was rolled out for Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu as part of a British Airways trade deal...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/why-ceausescus-1978-state-visit-was-far-more-humiliating-than-trumps-ever-could-be/

At least this time the red carpet is being rolled out for the USA!

RobMc59

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sense of perspective here on when the red carpet was rolled out for Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu as part of a British Airways trade deal...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/why-ceausescus-1978-state-visit-was-far-more-humiliating-than-trumps-ever-could-be/

At least this time the red carpet is being rolled out for the USA!

Probably not as embarrassing as this little gem though..
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/de-valera-hitler-the-visit-of-condolence-may-1945/

odyssey06

RobMc59 wrote: »

Probably not as embarrassing as this little gem though..
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/de-valera-hitler-the-visit-of-condolence-may-1945/

I think even the Germans were embarrassed at that one...

janfebmar

The US President called the US-UK "special relationship" the "greatest alliance the world has ever known."
Actually when you think about it, and look today at the 75 anniversary of the D-day landings, it probably is.

Trump also said Britain and the US would be able to strike a "phenomenal trade deal" once the UK left the European Union.
He also said to Teresa May "I would have sued (the EU) and settled maybe. Perhaps you won't be given the credit you deserve". Interesting times.

Junkyard Tom

Sweet mercy people actually buy the utter shite Trump sells. The Americans told Britain to get the fuck out of Suez not long after WWII and they did exactly as they were told. Some 'alliance' that is.

Blinky Plebum

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

Ireland and every other country in the EU.

We're a small country with nothing of real interest that some other country would want to invade us.

the difference being that every other country in the EU would at least contribute to the european army.

why anyone would want to hand over their military capability, however small, to an organisation outside of their country though, I do not know.

steddyeddy

RobMc59 wrote: »

Probably not as embarrassing as this little gem though..
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/de-valera-hitler-the-visit-of-condolence-may-1945/

Or the collaboration of a former king of Britain with Nazis. That always seems to get overlooked.

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

The US President called the US-UK "special relationship" the "greatest alliance the world has ever known."
Actually when you think about it, and look today at the 75 anniversary of the D-day landings, it probably is.

Trump also said Britain and the US would be able to strike a "phenomenal trade deal" once the UK left the European Union.
He also said to Teresa May "I would have sued (the EU) and settled maybe. Perhaps you won't be given the credit you deserve". Interesting times.

He also gave money to Sinn Fein and is associated with Gerry Adams.

Junkyard Tom

Aegir wrote: »

so you are saying that Ireland does need air defence? If so, then why does it hide behind the UK?

Aegir wrote: »

have you ever looked at a map? Where do you think a soviet union/US war would take place?

Aegir wrote: »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-SR4B5IgAAp7uG.jp

Aegir wrote: »

Russian bombers enter UK Airspace, RAF escorts them until they clear off. Russian Bombers enter Irish airspace, RAF escorts them until they clear off...then tell the Irish who knew nothing about the two bombers flying across international air lanes with no transponders on, in an area that it is their duty to control. no US involvement whatsoever.

Aegir wrote: »

Irish controlled airspace from who? civilian airlines were protected, because the British fighters put their transponders on, so other planes could see them. As the Norwegians did prior to handing over to the British and the French did after they took over. The Irish, on the other hand, did nothing.

Aegir wrote: »

so it hides behind Britain and the US?

Aegir wrote: »

No, Ireland certainly isn’t. They are expected to have some plan for controlling their airspace beyond “call the Brits”.

Aegir wrote: »

So Ireland can hide behind an EU army?

I'd say you'd have loved to be posted to the north during the troubles with the BA - you'd have been able to stick it to Paddy any time you like and got paid for it.

steddyeddy

Where's the Russian aggression coming from by the way? I don't remember Irish-Russian relations to be that intense.

FrancieBrady

Suggesting the British are protecting us from the Russians and not themselves is almost as funny as thinking Trump will pause for a second before he screws the British on a trade deal.

janfebmar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sweet mercy people actually buy the utter shite Trump sells. The Americans told Britain to get the fuck out of Suez not long after WWII and they did exactly as they were told. Some 'alliance' that is.

Suez in 1956 was a lot more complicated than that, and France and Israel were involved there too. The special relationship soon healed though, with Britain's first Hydrogen bomb test Operation Grapple which led to the 1958 U.S.–UK Mutual Defence Agreement. Six years after the crisis, the Americans amazed the British by selling them state-of-the-art missile technology at a moderate cost, which became the UK Polaris programme.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Suggesting the British are protecting us from the Russians and not themselves is almost as funny as...

It is not suggesting, it is stating. It came to light after 9/11 when then Fianna Fáil defense minister, Michael Smith, let slip in the Dáil that it was arranged the RAF would come to Ireland’s aid if there was a 9/11-like incident over Ireland.

Every now and again Russian military aircraft act the maggot and endanger our civilian aircraft / transatlantic planes by flying down off our west coast (Irish controlled airspace) with their transponders turned off. Norwegian military planes have to shadow the russian planes until our space, where UK planes take over, until the french in turn take over later on.

Quote: "the Russian flights, which are unannounced, do have the potential of causing a hazard to civil aviation." A pair of Russian TU-95 “Bears” appeared on British radars as they flew in an arc that took them on a flight path off Ireland’s west coast.

Subsequent reports stated that their transponders were switched off.

In contrast to civilian airliners, the Russians were not making it easy for other aircraft in the vicinity to be aware of their presence.

The RAF knew and duly sent up its Typhoon interceptors.

The bears looped around Ireland’s south coast and headed for the English Channel with the British fighters as close company.

Nobody panicked or fired a shot. Nobody was hurt, though Irish pride was somewhat dented.

The Bears had not penetrated sovereign airspace, but they had crossed through the Irish-controlled airspace, a much larger area in which civil aviation is the responsibility of the Republic’s air traffic control system."

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not suggesting, it is stating. It came to light after 9/11 when then Fianna Fáil defense minister, Michael Smith, let slip in the Dáil that it was arranged the RAF would come to Ireland’s aid if there was a 9/11-like incident over Ireland.

Every now and again Russian military aircraft act the maggot and endanger our civilian aircraft / transatlantic planes by flying down off our west coast (Irish controlled airspace) with their transponders turned off. Norwegian military planes have to shadow the russian planes until our space, where UK planes take over, until the french in turn take over later on.

Quote: "the Russian flights, which are unannounced, do have the potential of causing a hazard to civil aviation." A pair of Russian TU-95 “Bears” appeared on British radars as they flew in an arc that took them on a flight path off Ireland’s west coast.

Subsequent reports stated that their transponders were switched off.

In contrast to civilian airliners, the Russians were not making it easy for other aircraft in the vicinity to be aware of their presence.

The RAF knew and duly sent up its Typhoon interceptors.

The bears looped around Ireland’s south coast and headed for the English Channel with the British fighters as close company.

Nobody panicked or fired a shot. Nobody was hurt, though Irish pride was somewhat dented.

The Bears had not penetrated sovereign airspace, but they had crossed through the Irish-controlled airspace, a much larger area in which civil aviation is the responsibility of the Republic’s air traffic control system."

No amount of 'defence' could have prevented a surprise attack like 9-11.

What protects against something like that is co-operation, sharing intel and being in a mutually protective union...not going off on a sulk because you can't get your own way and unicorns.

odyssey06

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No amount of 'defence' could have prevented a surprise attack like 9-11.

What protects against something like that is co-operation, sharing intel and being in a mutually protective union...not going off on a sulk because you can't get your own way and unicorns.

Mutually protective union which defends against nothing. Think you are confusing it with NATO.

Unicorn right there. Or is unicorn the codename for a new russian warplane?

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No amount of 'defence' could have prevented a surprise attack like 9-11.

Nobody said it could. However since then security has been tightened up and the US is no longer soft on terror. Even people with suspected past connections are checked. Adams himself says "“Some of our political representatives have been denied access to the USA while others, including myself, have to regularly go through additional searches and scrutiny when we travel to and from the USA.” At the entrance to an event in the US a few years ago, Adams was pulled aside from the Sinn Féin visiting party by security personnel who examined his documents. After he was left waiting for 90 minutes while his passport was checked, Adams decided to leave the event entrance when it appeared there was no resolution.

Berserker

Berserker wrote: »

Every US president in my living memory has sold weapons to anyone and everyone.

In 1979 the US State Department banned arms sales to the British state in the Six Counties. Apparently that state's servants had been torturing the native Irish, and some people over in America decided to do something about it. Lovely to see such American defence of human rights, eh Berserker?

Source: [url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3318/isia.2014.25.1?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents[/url]Here[/url], here and here.

Timberrrrrrrr

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sense of perspective here on when the red carpet was rolled out for Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu as part of a British Airways trade deal...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/why-ceausescus-1978-state-visit-was-far-more-humiliating-than-trumps-ever-could-be/

At least this time the red carpet is being rolled out for the USA!

Except there was no red carpet for trump :pac:

https://www.express.co.uk/videos/6043913617001/Trump-visit-President-has-no-red-carpet-laid-for-UK-arrival

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Nobody said it could. .

So why bring it up then?

told the Dáil that it was arranged the RAF would come to Ireland’s aid if there was a 9/11-like incident over Ireland.

Britain is in our air space to protect itself. Catch yourself on..

odyssey06

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Except there was no red carpet for trump :pac:

https://www.express.co.uk/videos/6043913617001/Trump-visit-President-has-no-red-carpet-laid-for-UK-arrival

Some sort of underling is about to have an exciting career opportunity in South Georgia. The island.

janfebmar

janfebmar wrote: »

The US President called the US-UK "special relationship" the "greatest alliance the world has ever known."
Actually when you think about it, and look today at the 75 anniversary of the D-day landings, it probably is.

Trump also said Britain and the US would be able to strike a "phenomenal trade deal" once the UK left the European Union.
He also said to Teresa May "I would have sued (the EU) and settled maybe. Perhaps you won't be given the credit you deserve". Interesting times.

But... but... Trump's a complete fúcking moron. What sort of person would quote him approvingly? I live in Ireland and I've yet to meet a single person who would. He's treated like the imbecile son of a local neighbour, about whom you don't wish to say anything negative out of respect for your neighbour.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Britain is in our air space to protect itself. Catch yourself on..

It is also, for example, in the instances above, protecting civilian airlines in our Irish controlled airspace, from crashing in to the Russian military aircraft who have their transponders turned off. So protecting everyone, because we cannot protect ourselves.

janfebmar

Deleted User wrote: »

But... but... Trump's a complete fúcking moron.

Show me a US president or even politician against who criticisms cannot be made. I still would respect and trust the USA a hell of a lot more than China or Russia.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

It is also, for example, in the instances above, protecting civilian airlines in our Irish controlled airspace, from crashing in to the Russian military aircraft who have their transponders turned off. So protecting everyone, because we cannot protect ourselves.

The Russian jets they intercepted were enroute to British airspace Jan. They were protecting themselves...we are collateral protection, to coin a phrase.

weldoninhio

janfebmar wrote: »

It is also, for example, in the instances above, protecting civilian airlines in our Irish controlled airspace, from crashing in to the Russian military aircraft who have their transponders turned off. So protecting everyone, because we cannot protect ourselves.

Unless the Russians are recruiting kamikaze pilots, I’m sure they’d be able to see other aircraft on their radar and keep clear of them.

Also hilarious to see people quoting some political about a 9/11 attempt in Ireland. We’d have time to build a fleet of aircraft before Mohammed and friends could find something tall enough to crash into in Ireland.

kingchess

janfebmar wrote: »

It is also, for example, in the instances above, protecting civilian airlines in our Irish controlled airspace, from crashing in to the Russian military aircraft who have their transponders turned off. So protecting everyone, because we cannot protect ourselves.

Out of curiosity but why would 2 Russian pilots want to kill themselves and their crews by letting passenger planes crash into them???

janfebmar

kingchess wrote: »

Out of curiosity but why would 2 Russian pilots want to kill themselves and their crews by letting passenger planes crash into them???

Accidents can happen. That is why the Norwegians, and the British, and the French, shadow them in their own military aircraft with their transponders turned on, unlike the Russians.

What were the Russian doing flying off the coast of Galway do you think? Trying to pick up radio na Gaeltacht?

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The brits have a knack of always coming out on top in the long run.

This is plainly wishful thinking. 'Decline' not 'success' has by any measure been the dominant theme of Britain's economy for the past century. It has been in decline since at least the end of the 19th century. By 1919 it was far behind many advanced countries, most noticeably Germany, where the 2nd industrial revolution based on chemicals had propelled Germany ahead of Britain by 1900. The US and Japan were also significantly ahead of it as they had modernised later while Britain rested on her laurels.

Economically, Britain had not modernised when even countries like Poland was more advanced (most obviously in its mining technology) and because Britain had millions upon millions of workers engaged in mining, textiles and shipbuilding this more efficient foreign competition seriously undermined any post-WWI British attempts to put economic substance behind its world power claims.
Even France, which unlike Britain had WWI on its soil and was therefore almost totally ruined (especially in northern France) by 1919, had passed Britain by in modernisation terms by 1929 (as they had to start from scratch in 1919). Ironically, Britain's only economic rebirth since 1919 has been during its EU membership when it recast itself as a financial services economy and had far more global economic success. Like so much else, that piece of history will not get into any Brexiteer guide to English history.

And that's just the economic decline of the British state. Politically, even though Britain was on the winning side after two world wars, in both cases it was the indisputable loser on the winning side (and the US the winner). Heavily in debt, and using much of its post-WWII borrowed money to maintain a world power status through its rapidly crumbling Empire. That political decline since 1919, even though it received Ottoman and German lands immediately after WWI, should be obvious to even the most obdurate Brexiteer. It shaped its decision to collaborate with/appease Nazi Germany for six years until September 1939, it shaped it in Greece in 1947, in Suez in 1956 and in so many other places.

In very, very many respects it could be argued that Brexit is forcing the state to belatedly reflect economic realities of a much weaker English national economy rather than of a global British Empire world power economy.

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The EU will eventually implode without serious reform. Where are we at then?

In the meantime not having any sort of ally in the Union worries me a lot. I've a feeling that we're going to get rolled. Eventual tax harmonisation in particular is going to sting badly.

Right there is that absolutely bizarre anglocentric mentality which declares "The EU will implode", as if this is a surprising or original observation. Every state in the history of the world has 'imploded'. Only in the decidedly limited intelligence of the Brexit mind could this be considered incisive. That is the nature of all states. No exception.

The British state which its apologists go on as if it's some eternal entity can only be dated to 6 December 1922 in its current form. That's nothing. All my grandparents were born in the 19th century, one of whom was born in 1897 lived with us growing up in the 1980s. But the benighted morons who go on about the British state and resisting the EU haven't a fúcking iota about their own country's history and how it has evolved - never mind basic cop-on ideas like nothing lasts forever.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

What were the Russian doing flying off the coast of Galway do you think? Trying to pick up radio na Gaeltacht?

Playing chicken with British jets, who are stupid enough to play with them...what if a British pilot made a mistake and came down in Galway city?

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Playing chicken with British jets, who are stupid enough to play with them...what if a British pilot made a mistake and came down in Galway city?

The British pilots were nowhere near Galway city. Much more likely was a pair of high speed Russian military aircraft with transponders turned off interfering with civilian aircraft off our coasts.