Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

ohnonotgmail

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Given that Scotland houses no fewer than 7 nuclear submarines , 20 odd minesweepers plus an entire battalion of the royal marines I
would imagine if this gets out of Simon Coveneys hands we're going to lose this one.

Tbh it sounds like fake news cause Scotland are still under EU directions re fishing rights. So someone is on the spoof somewhere.

Probably some leftwing culchie who is sick of quotas and doesn't like the smell of fresh haddock. Bastard.

None of which scotland have any control over. They have some unarmed fisheries vessels, that is all.

whisky_galore

artanevilla wrote: »

Scotland aren’t even a country anyway. It would be like Cork County council trying to stop Waterford fishing vessels fishing in the Irish Sea.

With the backing of the UK no doubt.

Ireland a tiddlywink nation with the backing of whom? The EU? Do they give a shît about a spat over some shít splattered god forsaken rock and the area around it?

blinding

whisky_galore wrote: »

With the backing of the UK no doubt.

Ireland a tiddlywink nation with the backing of whom? The EU? Do they give a shît about a spat over some shít splattered god forsaken rock and the area around it?

If the brits do leave the Eu . The Republic of Ireland will be of no interest to the Eu .

topper75

whisky_galore wrote: »

With the backing of the UK no doubt.

Ireland a tiddlywink nation with the backing of whom? The EU? Do they give a shît about a spat over some shít splattered god forsaken rock and the area around it?

To be fair nobody cares for the rock itself, shît-spattered or otherwise. A claim on the rock though claims the waters. The area around will certainly prick up ears in Brussels. Fish is just one resource. Whether that giving a shît extends to hard help I don't know. Past record in the crash was not great. They did us.

blinding

blinding wrote: »

If the brits do leave the Eu . The Republic of Ireland will be of no interest to the Eu .

Surely it would be of even more interest? Leaving aside any strategic defensive aspect to Ireland's location, here's a very, very interesting research report from Foras na Mara/the Marine Institute from a mere three days ago, 7 June 2019, about just how large Ireland's sea area is (I wonder is the timing of the current debate linked?):

Few people realise that when our seabed territory is taken into account, Ireland is one of the largest countries in Europe. The Real Map of Ireland clearly depicts the full extent of Ireland's marine territory of over 220 million acres (880,000Km2), which is ten times the size of the island of Ireland. The red line on the 'real' map depicts the limit of Ireland's territorial waters and Exclusive Economic Zone, which extend out across the North Atlantic Ocean and include parts of the Irish and Celtic Seas.

Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), the continental shelf of a coastal state comprises the seabed and subsoil of submarine area that extends to 200 nautical miles from its territorial sea baselines, or further if the natural prolongation of its land mass is beyond this. A coastal state exercises sovereign rights over its continental shelf for the purpose of exploring it and exploiting its natural resources. Where a margin extends beyond 200 nautical miles, a coastal state may extend its continental shelf limit, subject to the criteria set out in Article 76 of UNCLOS...

It's worth reading the full summary here:

Marine Institute: 'The map of Ireland is bigger than you think' (7 June 2019)

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely it would be of even more interest? Leaving aside any strategic defensive aspect to Ireland's location, here's a very, very interesting research report from Foras na Mara/the Marine Institute from a mere three days ago, 7 June 2019, about just how large Ireland's sea area is (I wonder is the timing of the current debate linked?):



It's worth reading the full summary here:

Marine Institute: 'The map of Ireland is bigger than you think' (7 June 2019)

rockall is more than 200 nautical miles from Ireland. It is closer to scotland and within 200 nautical miles of their coast.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

rockall is more than 200 nautical miles from Ireland. It is closer to scotland and within 200 nautical miles of their coast.

The Malvinas are 12,000 km from the UK - 1500 km from Argentina.

Not wishing to divert the thread but is distance the issue?

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Malvinas are 12,000 km from the UK - 1500 km from Argentina.

Not wishing to divert the thread but is distance the issue?

It is relevant to what Fuaranach posted.

corner of hells

topper75 wrote: »

Mise Adrian McClenaghan. The Irish Spartacus!

#me too Adrian.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is relevant to what Fuaranach posted.

Not really; I was specifically pointing out Ireland's extensive sea territory in response to the suggestion that the EU would have no interest in Ireland after Brexit.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really; I was specifically pointing out Ireland's extensive sea territory in response to the suggestion that the EU would have no interest in Ireland after Brexit.

but that interest will only extend to the 200 mile limit so it will have no interest in Rockall.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Malvinas are 12,000 km from the UK - 1500 km from Argentina.

Not wishing to divert the thread but is distance the issue?

hehe.

blinding

If we tell Juncker there is a drink in for him . I can see him launching the Luxembourg Navy immediately . Admiral Juncker Ahoy !

jmayo

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

We have Scotland in our opening game of The Rugby World Cup, ROR is a nice tune for the fans to be singing.

Shure a big chunk of the "Irish" at that match will be the ones from the North who would be more pro Scotland than pro Ireland.
Another chunk will be the ar**es from certain parts of Dublin that will be laughing at their country cousins from outside the Pale.

janfebmar wrote: »

It supported people for months. It supports wildlife. What more do you want it to support?

The first people on it, and afaik, the only people on it, were all British.
It's closer to Scotland than any other country. So I would guess the British will argue it is not in international waters, it is in British waters.

Are you British or just a plain ould soup taker ?

FTA69 wrote: »

If Varadkar doesn’t authorise submarine strikes on all Scottish sea vessels I’m never voting for Fine Gael again.

Ehh say the fella living in London ?
Actually any chance you can ferment some anti Scottish feeling in the capital.
Just keep reminding the southerners about the lazy dunken scots hanging around.

Can't understand the Scots getting uppidity at this time unless it is the ones that are looking forward to Brexit and believe they will see the glorious rise of their fishing industry and want sole rights to that area.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

rockall is more than 200 nautical miles from Ireland. It is closer to scotland and within 200 nautical miles of their coast.

All true, but from what I can gather, the UK has itself been indecisive as to how to ground its claim on Rockall.

They have vacillated between preferring a median-line measurement relative to Ireland vs saying that Rockall was a natural prolongation of the Scottish landmass. I wish they'd make up their minds.

The question, also, is whether uninhabited islets, incapable of supporting human life, should have any marine space. "No" was the original position of the Irish Government vis a vis Rockall, but they have now, apparently, retracted that position. The reason seems to be unknown.

I'm only getting this from the one book I've seen that deals with this topic. No doubt there is more relevant, updated information that would be relevant before we all don our Tommy helmets (hereinafter to be known as Tomas helmets) and start digging trenches along the Ulster coast.

RobMc59

Surely there's enough fish for Ireland and Britain in that area and squabbling over this is counterproductive-its the nations that couldn't care less about the seas surrounding our islands that should have to work within a quota system.

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

Surely there's enough fish for Ireland and Britain in that area and squabbling over this is counterproductive-its the nations that couldn't care less about the seas surrounding our islands that should have to work within a quota system.

But once you start departing from the CFP, you then leave open the opportunity for other countries to retreat into local huddles and start excluding the Irish and the Brits, whilst they enjoy a local free-for-all.

In all an' in anyway, I think the relevance of Rockall goes way beyond the importance of this craggy island and its marine limits. It's a useful signpost for how Brexit negotiations might play out, and it's impossible to separate this latest manifestation of the Rockall dispute from the Brexit omnibus.

Speaking of craggy islands, is there a Rugged Island slightly closer to the Donegal coastline which we could conceivably use to further our marine territory?

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Malvinas are 12,000 km from the UK - 1500 km from Argentina.

Not wishing to divert the thread but is distance the issue?

Las Malvinas Francis, to give them their name in Spanish.

I would have thought someone from Eire would appreciate the nuance.

RobMc59

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But once you start departing from the CFP, you then leave open the opportunity for other countries to retreat into local huddles and start excluding the Irish and the Brits, whilst they enjoy a local free-for-all.

In all an' in anyway, I think the relevance of Rockall goes way beyond the importance of this craggy island and its marine limits. It's a useful signpost for how Brexit negotiations might play out, and it's impossible to separate this latest manifestation of the Rockall dispute from the Brexit omnibus.

Speaking of craggy islands, is there a Rugged Island slightly closer to the Donegal coastline which we could conceivably use to further our marine territory?

All this does raise the question,is an EU "free for all"the best policy or is it in Ireland's best interests to agree something jointly with the UK which would suit both parties?To me,what suits Ireland and Britain should supersede what the EU want.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Las Malvinas Francis, to give them their name in Spanish.

I would have thought someone from Eire would appreciate the nuance.

If you are going to be pedantic it's Éire Aegir.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you are going to be pedantic it's Éire Aegir.

I think you miss the sarcasm there Francis.

calling the country Eire in English to wind people up is pathetic, is it not?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

I think you miss the sarcasm there Francis.

calling the country Eire in English to wind people up is pathetic, is it not?

Tbh I am not quite sure what you are doing. But carry on until you are carried off, as they say.

Reati

Aegir wrote: »

calling the country Eire in English to wind people up is pathetic, is it not?

But it's not Eire. It's Éire.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you are going to be pedantic it's Éire Aegir.

Well played.

The humble síneadh fada makes all the difference

Eire: A load
Éire: Ireland.

Anois, back to Rockall.

FrancieBrady

Reati wrote: »

But it's not Eire. It's Éire.



Well played.

The humble síneadh fada makes all the difference

Eire: A load
Éire: Ireland.

Anois, back to Rockall.

I think people like Aegir think or expect people on an Irish website to defer to his pro Empire/Imperialist sensibility.

It's the same arrogance that allows the UK to ignore UN determinations on territorial rights. Like the Chagos Islands and Rockall etc etc.

BarryD2

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Speaking of craggy islands, is there a Rugged Island slightly closer to the Donegal coastline which we could conceivably use to further our marine territory?

The Infomar surveys of the Atlantic seabed of recent years are informative: https://www.infomar.ie/maps/interactive-maps/data-viewer

There's a substantial trench, the Rockall Trench separating both Ireland and Scotland from Rockall - so it's not as if the area is some natural extension to the continental shelf of either land mass. Logically it's not part of either's natural territory.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think people like Aegir think or expect people on an Irish website to defer to his pro Empire/Imperialist sensibility.

It's the same arrogance that allows the UK to ignore UN determinations on territorial rights. Like the Chagos Islands and Rockall etc etc.

I don't expect anything from you francis, other than the usual childish, chip on your shoulder ****e you regularly post on here.

it really is an obsession for you, isn't it?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

I don't expect anything from you francis, other than the usual childish, chip on your shoulder ****e you regularly post on here.

it really is an obsession for you, isn't it?

:D:D Says the guy who came on to have a huff about a name.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think people like Aegir think or expect people on an Irish website to defer to his pro Empire/Imperialist sensibility.

It's the same arrogance that allows the UK to ignore UN determinations on territorial rights. Like the Chagos Islands and Rockall etc etc.

Yawn...record...change?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yawn...record...change?

No words for the eternally offended Aegir? :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

BarryD2 wrote: »

The Infomar surveys of the Atlantic seabed of recent years are informative: https://www.infomar.ie/maps/interactive-maps/data-viewer

There's a substantial trench, the Rockall Trench separating both Ireland and Scotland from Rockall - so it's not as if the area is some natural extension to the continental shelf of either land mass. Logically it's not part of either's natural territory.

The Irish Government has to stand up strong here as there are also huge issues with fishing in the Foyle Estuary.

bear1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Irish Government has to stand up strong here as there are also huge issues with fishing in the Foyle Estuary.

They will send the harshest letter known to man.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Irish Government has to stand up strong here as there are also huge issues with fishing in the Foyle Estuary.

As you should know that is a separate matter covered under a long standing agreement which Ireland and Britain are both happy with.-perhaps common sense can extend this to include rockall if the EU allows Ireland to do that...

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

As you should know that is a separate matter covered under a long standing agreement which Ireland and Britain are both happy with.-perhaps common sense can extend this to include rockall if the EU allows Ireland to do that...

Brexit is the spanner in the works.

Agreements go out the window if it happens.

Force Carrier

Phoney war is over. The Irish Navy swinging into action.

Grayson

BarryD2 wrote: »

The Infomar surveys of the Atlantic seabed of recent years are informative: https://www.infomar.ie/maps/interactive-maps/data-viewer

There's a substantial trench, the Rockall Trench separating both Ireland and Scotland from Rockall - so it's not as if the area is some natural extension to the continental shelf of either land mass. Logically it's not part of either's natural territory.

That map is so cool. It shows all the ship wrecks.

downwesht

Blow up the rock,simple solution,nothing to fight over then!

recedite

blinding wrote: »

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So I gather we don't recognise the fact that Rockwall is a UK rock, and that the territorial waters surrounding Rockwall are UK waters, yet we don't lay claim to the rock or the waters

Kinda like saying its not your rock but it is really .

Its more like losing a chess game, and then saying "Lets call it a draw, that seems fair".

Force Carrier

It's like when King Solomon of Israel ruled between two women both claiming to be the mother of a child and he said that the child should be cut in half and half given to each woman. Only the true mother would give the baby to the other woman sooner than see it killed.

So the UN needs to prepare to blow up Rockall to discover who the true owner is.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely it would be of even more interest? Leaving aside any strategic defensive aspect to Ireland's location, here's a very, very interesting research report from Foras na Mara/the Marine Institute from a mere three days ago, 7 June 2019, about just how large Ireland's sea area is (I wonder is the timing of the current debate linked?):
It's worth reading the full summary here:

Marine Institute: 'The map of Ireland is bigger than you think' (7 June 2019)

Yeah but... the map shows Rockall itself to be in the UK's EEZ, even though the southern part of the Rockall Bank is in the Irish EEZ. Hence the UK can lay claim to the rock, and with that comes the 12 mile territorial limit around it.
There's only 2 aways around this. Either blow up the rock so that it does not appear above the high tide mark. The advantage of this is that their 12 mile territorial limit disappears overnight, and with it their exclusive fishing rights.

The diasadvantage is that they "might" consider that an act of war -wiping a piece of another country off the map usually is.



Alternatively adopt the Chinese method of building new islands or rocks in the shallow seas of the southern Rockall bank. Then lure the fish over to our rock (Rockall II) using underwater LED lighting. Then put up a sign "Scots Keep Out, 12 mile limit in operation".

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Since Ireland are playing Gibraltar tonight. I wouldn't put it past England building a soccer pitch on top of it and trying to get a new international soccer team registered with FIFA.

There's ultimately a political stunt/strategy at the core of this. Because by the letter of the law it is not an inhabited island.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Do Ireland actually have any territorial claim over it?

This vid makes out that the dispute is between GB, Iceland and Denmark/Faroe Islands.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There's ultimately a political stunt/strategy at the core of this. Because by the letter of the law it is not an inhabited island.

Yes, but by the letter of the law, it doesn't matter that it's uninhabited.

In any case, I apologise in advance for such wet-blacket commentary; the prospect of bombing Rockall into the middle of next week is Very Exciting.

blinding

Lets bomb it to show them we mean business .

Candamir

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Do Ireland actually have any territorial claim over it?

This vid makes out that the dispute is between GB, Iceland and Denmark/Faroe Islands.

Ireland have never made a territorial claim over Rockall. The Irish governments stance is that uninhabitable rocks and stacks should not be subject to territorial claim. Makes a lot of sense IMO.

RobMc59

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yes, but by the letter of the law, it doesn't matter that it's uninhabited.

In any case, I apologise in advance for such wet-blacket commentary; the prospect of bombing Rockall into the middle of next week is Very Exciting.

Ireland's imperial aspirations are unacceptable in this day and age.

recedite

Candamir wrote: »

The Irish governments stance is that uninhabitable rocks and stacks should not be subject to territorial claim. Makes a lot of sense IMO.

How about the Skelligs?

_blaaz

recedite wrote: »

How about the Skelligs?

They are inhabitable?

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland's imperial aspirations are unacceptable in this day and age.

Nothing imperialistic about this, my man; we need to use quite a lot of howitzers before they reach their Best-Before dates

ohnonotgmail

_blaaz wrote: »

They are inhabitable?

apparently some old bloke with a scarred face lives there.

lawred2

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Do Ireland actually have any territorial claim over it?

This vid makes out that the dispute is between GB, Iceland and Denmark/Faroe Islands.

Ireland has not ever claimed to have any claim to it.

They however contest the UKs claim to a rock in the sea and the zone around it. They view it as international waters.