Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2019 5:24pm

Matt Carthy was very good on the complexities of the issue on Drivetime there.

recedite · 10-06-2019 5:25pm

_blaaz wrote: »

They are inhabitable?

Skelligs had monks for a while. Rockall had SAS for a shorter while.
Both inhabitants equally tough and mad.
But if not Skelligs, there must be dozens of uninhabited offshore rocks and islands that we claim.

lawred2 · 10-06-2019 5:27pm

recedite wrote: »

How about the Skelligs?

They are within Ireland's eez. Not remotely comparable to a remote uninhabited rock sitting in the middle of nowhere

lawred2 · 10-06-2019 5:28pm

recedite wrote: »

Skelligs had monks for a while. Rockall had SAS for a shorter while.
Both inhabitants equally tough and mad.
But if not Skelligs, there must be dozens of uninhabited offshore rocks and islands that we claim.

EEZ

Best to google it

recedite · 10-06-2019 5:29pm

lawred2 wrote: »

They are within Ireland's eez. Not remotely comparable..

Exactly. And Rockall is within the UK's EEZ.

10-06-2019 5:32pm

recedite wrote: »

Exactly. And Rockall is within the UK's EEZ.

And if any fish beech themselves flop onto Rockall the UK can claim them exclusively. Otherwise they can stick the caber up where the sun don't shine.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-06-2019 5:32pm

Some daft bastard attempted to live on Rockall for 2 months back in 2013.

Had to abort halfway through when a massive storm washed away all his supplies.

lawred2 · 10-06-2019 5:35pm

recedite wrote: »

Exactly. And Rockall is within the UK's EEZ.

Based on some wee Scotland islet. Maybe that's all it takes but the UN doesn't necessarily agree with the relatively recent annexing of it.

recedite · 10-06-2019 5:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And if any fish beech themselves flop onto Rockall the UK can claim them exclusively. Otherwise they can stick the caber up where the sun don't shine.

Nope. Here's how it works; Rockall is within the UK's EEZ so they land on it and plant a flag. That allows them to claim a 12 mile territorial limit around it (exclusive fishing rights, even while they are in the EU).
The EEZ is projected from the nearest permanently inhabited part of Scotland (St Kilda) not from the rock. But the rock projects its own 12 mile limit.
Its all laid down in the international law of the sea.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 10-06-2019 5:38pm

recedite wrote: »

How about the Skelligs?

Someone already posted up what the laws are. And Skellig is very different to Rockall.

10-06-2019 5:39pm

recedite wrote: »

Nope. Here's how it works; Rockall is within the UK's EEZ so they land on it and plant a flag. That allows them to claim a 12 mile territorial limit around it (exclusive fishing rights, even while they are in the EU).
The EEZ is projected from the nearest permanently inhabited part of Scotland (St Kilda) not from the rock. But the rock projects its own 12 mile limit.
Its all laid down in the international law of the sea.

But a rock isn't considered an island and doesn't have the 12 mile limit. What law are you referring to?

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2019 5:39pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Some daft bastard attempted to live on Rockall for 2 months back in 2013.

Had to abort halfway through when a massive storm washed away all his supplies.

Yeh. Some SAS dimwit clung on a for a while alright with a rescue boat nearby to catch him when he fell off.
Doesn't really qualify it as 'inhabitable'.

RobMc59 · 10-06-2019 5:51pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh. Some SAS dimwit clung on a for a while alright with a rescue boat nearby to catch him when he fell off.
Doesn't really qualify it as 'inhabitable'.

This article will come as a blow to you francie as it suggests the wicked English have urged the Scottish to calm down over this but they're having none of it now their dander is up!
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/scotland-risks-antagonising-brussels-with-rockall-row-1.3920016

recedite · 10-06-2019 5:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But a rock isn't considered an island and doesn't have the 12 mile limit. What law are you referring to?

You linked to it yourself, a while back. It can be measured off a reef or a rock.

Deleted User wrote: »

Only if you consider the UN as such...
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm

In the case of islands situated on atolls or of islands having fringing reefs, the baseline for measuring the breadth of the territorial sea is the seaward low-water line of the reef, as shown by the appropriate symbol on charts officially recognized by the coastal State

When is a rock an island, or vice versa? Skellig comes to mind again.

IMO a small island can look more like a large rock, but as long as it remains above water at high tide it can be considered to be part of the national territory.

10-06-2019 5:53pm

If I read that correctly the IT are claiming the Scots are the school yard bullies.

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2019 5:56pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

This article will come as a blow to you francie as it suggests the wicked English have urged the Scottish to calm down over this but they're having none of it now their dander is up!
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/scotland-risks-antagonising-brussels-with-rockall-row-1.3920016

The English are a beaten docket regarding us I think Rob. They know what the Scots don't yet.

10-06-2019 5:58pm

recedite wrote: »

IMO a small island can look more like a large rock, but as long as it remains above water at high tide it can be considered to be part of the national territory.

With due respect that's meaningless. Have you seen Rockall (clue is in the name). If the Icelandic, Faroe and Irish put some fertiliser together this would go away overnight.

I've not read the whole thread, what has skellig got to do with it. While it did sustain a population at a point in time it'd be hard to take seriously as an island even if it's hundreds of times the size of Rockhall.

recedite · 10-06-2019 6:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If I read that correctly the IT are claiming the Scots are the school yard bullies.

A newspaper never refused ink

There is more confusion elsewhere in the article too...

Firstly, unless and until Scotland becomes an independent country, an objective for which personally I have some sympathy, any sovereignty claims are necessarily British rather than Scottish.

This is nothing to do with Scottish sovereignty. Its a UK sovereign claim, but Rockall falls within the Scottish regional authority.
UK fishing rights off Rockall are administered by Scotland. They have 3 fisheries protection vessels. But in case of trouble, they can call for backup from the Royal Navy, which has a lot more military assets than that. Fishing is devolved, but defence is not. Has the RN ever been beaten?

RobMc59 · 10-06-2019 6:11pm

recedite wrote: »

A newspaper never refused ink
There is more confusion elsewhere in the article too...

This is nothing to do with Scottish sovereignty. Its a UK sovereign claim, but Rockall falls within the Scottish regional authority.
UK fishing rights off Rockall are administered by Scotland. They have 3 fisheries protection vessels. But in case of trouble, they can call for backup from the Royal Navy, which has a lot more military assets than that. Fishing is devolved, but defence is not. Has the RN ever been beaten?

Iceland gave them a bloody nose In the cod wars.

10-06-2019 6:14pm

recedite wrote: »

Has the RN ever been beaten?

Open to interpretation...

"During WWI the Royal Navy suffered two painful defeats: Coronel 1 Nov,1914 and Jutland, 31 May- 1 June, 1916, both against the Imperial German Navy. During WWII, the British suffered one major defeat in an outright fleet battle, that of the Battle of Java Sea, 27 February, 1942, but also in numerous smaller actions, such as Hood vs Bismarck, in May, 1941. It should be pointed out that in the former engagement, not only the British suffered against the wrath of the Imperial Japanese Navy's crack 'A'-class cruisers, Ashigara, Haguro and Myoko, but also the U.S., the Dutch and the Australians did so as well."

recedite · 10-06-2019 6:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

With due respect that's meaningless. Have you seen Rockall (clue is in the name). If the Icelandic, Faroe and Irish put some fertiliser together this would go away overnight.
I've not read the whole thread, what has skellig got to do with it. While it did sustain a population at a point in time it'd be hard to take seriously as an island even if it's hundreds of times the size of Rockhall.

So just to clarify, what's your basis for saying an uninhabited island can't have a territorial limit measured off it?
Or are you saying it can, but a rock can't?
In which case, you need to explain how you differentiate between a rock and an island. That's why I mentioned Skellig. Just for comparison. Its an example of a rock that is also a small island, is not inhabited, but it is normally considered part of our national territory.

10-06-2019 6:20pm

recedite wrote: »

So just to clarify, what's your basis for saying an uninhabited island can't have a territorial limit measured off it?
Or are you saying it can, but a rock can't?
In which case, you need to explain how you differentiate between a rock and an island. That's why I mentioned Skellig. Just for comparison. Its an example of a rock that is also a small island, is not inhabited, but it is normally considered part of our national territory.

One that can be inhabited and self sustainable. Skellig was that at one time, and possibly could again. Not that I'd live there.

recedite · 10-06-2019 6:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Open to interpretation...

Indeed, it always better to win the war, than to win a battle.

10-06-2019 6:21pm

recedite wrote: »

Indeed, it always better to win the war, than to win a battle.

Or be on the same side as the Ruskies :pac:

recedite · 10-06-2019 6:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

One that can be inhabited and self sustainable. Skellig was that at one time, and possibly could again. Not that I'd live there.

But when I search your UN link for "inhabited" nothing comes up.
Nothing for rock either, but reef is mentioned.

10-06-2019 6:33pm

recedite wrote: »

But when I search your UN link for "inhabited" nothing comes up.
Nothing for rock either, but reef is mentioned.

Article121

Regime of islands

1. An island is a naturally formed area of land, surrounded by water, which is above water at high tide.

2. Except as provided for in paragraph 3, the territorial sea, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf of an island are determined in accordance with the provisions of this Convention applicable to other land territory.

3. Rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf.

So it seems Rocks are entitled to the 12 mile limit.

But, where Ireland come into this is that the rock is irrelevant and does not recognise the UK sovereignty of Rockhall.

Hamsterchops · 10-06-2019 6:46pm

Cod Wars ... Iceland Vs Britain

https://youtu.be/hv0Kdd3Mqv8

janfebmar · 10-06-2019 7:19pm

Force Carrier wrote: »

Phoney war is over. The Irish Navy swinging into action.

Don't mention it swinging or it may give him an idea about a claim. The taxpayer paying the army deafness compo thing a few decades ago was bad enough.

blinding · 10-06-2019 8:42pm

And all the help the FCA gave them with Braveheart awhile back .

odyssey06 · 10-06-2019 8:55pm

Given the difficulty we are having with the Rock of Gibraltar... the Scots probably dont need to lose any sleep over Rockall.

recedite · 11-06-2019 8:56am

Deleted User wrote: »

So it seems Rocks are entitled to the 12 mile limit. But, where Ireland come into this is that the rock is irrelevant and does not recognise the UK sovereignty of Rockhall.

That is the situation alright. But if Rockall had been in our EEZ, you can be sure the Irish interpretation would be very different

RobMc59 · 11-06-2019 12:05pm

It will be interesting to see if the Scottish send a warship and arrest fishermen as Ireland did earlier this year in Dundalk bay.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17697474.irish-fishermen-defiant-after-scottish-government-arrest-warning-in-rockall-dispute/

ohnonotgmail · 11-06-2019 12:11pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if the Scottish send a warship and arrest fishermen as Ireland did earlier this year in Dundalk bay.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17697474.irish-fishermen-defiant-after-scottish-government-arrest-warning-in-rockall-dispute/

scotland do not have any warships under their control.

11-06-2019 12:13pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

scotland do not have any warships under their control.

Yet....,

ohnonotgmail · 11-06-2019 12:14pm

Aegir wrote: »

Yet....,

as long as they are part of the UK they won't.

RobMc59 · 11-06-2019 12:21pm

Aegir wrote: »

Yet....,

If you look for Rockall on google maps there is what looks like a royal marines sea-king helicopter in the picture,although it was taken a couple of years ago.

ohnonotgmail · 11-06-2019 12:22pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you look for Rockall on google maps there is what looks like a royal marines sea-king helicopter in the picture,although it was taken a couple of years ago.

that was probably when the SAS nutter tried to live on and had to be rescued.

11-06-2019 2:14pm

RTÉ News: Scottish minister warns Irish vessels fishing around Rockall could be boarded

The Irish Times: 'Scotland risks antagonising Brussels with Rockall row -Irish Government is right to respond calmly but firmly to Scotland’s unexpected ultimatum'

Facing mounting international pressure, Scotland has decided to send one of its ships, the HMS Cromwell, to Rockall to extirpate the Irish from the area. Expect a pitstop in Drogheda along the way.

Baggly · 11-06-2019 2:23pm

Of all the names for the ship sent after Irish people.......

janfebmar · 11-06-2019 2:25pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that was probably when the SAS nutter tried to live on and had to be rescued.

He did not just try to live on it, he did live on it from May 1985 to July 1985. When he left he left by boat, as was the plan. He set a record for living on it at the time.

11-06-2019 2:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Facing mounting international pressure, Scotland has decided to send one of its ships, the HMS Cromwell, to Rockall to extirpate the Irish from the area. Expect a pitstop in Drogheda along the way.

Very witty.

I bet you spent ages looking for HMS Black and HMS Tan.

ohnonotgmail · 11-06-2019 2:30pm

janfebmar wrote: »

He did not just try to live on it, he did live on it from May 1985 to July 1985. When he left he left by boat, as was the plan. He set a record for living on it at the time.

you're right. i was thinking of the attempt a couple of years ago. that was cut short though they still beat mccleans record.

ohnonotgmail · 11-06-2019 2:31pm

Aegir wrote: »

Very witty.

I bet you spent ages looking for HMS Black and HMS Tan.

thought it was quite funny myself. took me a second or two to realise it was a ww2 ship so long scrapped.

janfebmar · 11-06-2019 2:51pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you're right. i was thinking of the attempt a couple of years ago. that was cut short though they still beat mccleans record.

He also was the first person to row the Atlantic from west to east. It must take a special type of person to want to do that, or stay camped on Rockwall for a few months.

11-06-2019 4:06pm

I had a salesman call to my house last night trying to sell me a set of encyclopedia and I couldn't head off to invade Scotland Rockhall.

Anybody else go?

recedite · 11-06-2019 4:18pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if the Scottish send a warship and arrest fishermen as Ireland did earlier this year in Dundalk bay.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17697474.irish-fishermen-defiant-after-scottish-government-arrest-warning-in-rockall-dispute/

Nice little video in that link showing the various shallow reefs in the vicinity.
There must be loads of similar ones in the southern bank within the Irish EEZ, where we could easily build Rockall II.
A few tonnes of concrete and some old rubble... there ya go, job done.

Our very own private fishing grounds with own 12 mile territorial limit.

FrancieBrady · 11-06-2019 4:22pm

janfebmar wrote: »

He also was the first person to row the Atlantic from west to east. It must take a special type of person to want to do that, or stay camped on Rockwall for a few months.

Why didn't he pick a rock off America when he got there and declare it part of Britain?

RobMc59 · 11-06-2019 6:34pm

recedite wrote: »

Nice little video in that link showing the various shallow reefs in the vicinity.
There must be loads of similar ones in the southern bank within the Irish EEZ, where we could easily build Rockall II.
A few tonnes of concrete and some old rubble... there ya go, job done.

Our very own private fishing grounds with own 12 mile territorial limit.

Personally I hope this can be sorted out amicably as I believe Ireland and Britain should work together to safeguard their joint fishing grounds-if anyone should be told to stop fishing there it should be Denmark and Iceland.
I'm also surprised Scotland are making such a fuss about this as they may need Ireland's backing over joining the EU in the event of independence-unless there's oil under rockall or something.

11-06-2019 7:10pm

Aegir wrote: »

Very witty.

I bet you spent ages looking for HMS Black and HMS Tan.

hehe. I actually just sat there and said to myself "I bet you the brazen fúckers named a ship after Cromwell!". A second of googling "HMS Cromwell" and sure enough they didn't disappoint. It seems Winston "Let's gas the Kurds" Churchill proposed it - at least twice - to the English king who said 'No' both times because apparently Cromwell was a bit of a buachaill dána to some profligate ancestor of his.

Breaking News: 'Rockall: Scotland Launch Tennents Airstrike On Ireland'

janfebmar · 11-06-2019 7:12pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why didn't he pick a rock off America when he got there and declare it part of Britain?

Because Rockall is closer to Scottish territory than it is to Irish or American territory, and because some other British lads in the early 1800's managed to land there and declared it for Britain. He just decided to do a spot of camping there from May to July one year, jolly quiet spot to do so if you ask me old chap. Those dastardly British were always a bit eccentric, what what? I do not think anyone from Ireland even spent one night on it, we have too much sense, sure what would be the pleasure in it when there is no pub on it?

Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

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