After Hours Ban

Kimsang

I wish to appeal the banning of my account from the after hours forum.

The mod said that my posts were 'utterly stupid' without quoting anything or referring to anything specifically I said.

I was having a heated ideological debate with several posters in the after hours forum, between two separate threads(one created to highlight the hypocrisy of the other). But no rules were broken.

Here are the threads:
Gendered attack at bus stop in Limerick

Homophobic attack on London bus


It is clear that there is an ideological bent on the moderator here, what she allowed to come to pass, and for banning me and that particular point in the conversation.

I do not see any infraction, if you do please let me know.

The mod closed the second of these threads without reason, other than being 'utterly stupid' This is a clear political bias.
When I brought up the same issue in the other thread (the exact same issue relating to hate crimes was being discussed) I was instantly permanent banned.

Now if you are happy to create an ideological echo chamber in after hours, then proceed and keep me banned. But if you want a fair open discussion, people like the mod who banned me, should not be allowed to continue banning people for no reason.

"Mod: Don't post here either. Your thread was closed for the reason of being utterly stupid,"

This is how the original mod note read. I disputed the fact that it was utterly stupid, and this was enough to get a permanent ban.

The private conversation that followed was:

"Re: You have been banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimsang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinehead
Dear Kimsang,

You have been permanently banned from After Hours for ignoring a moderator's instructions.

Discussion can become heated, we don't object to that, but when a moderator issues a warning on a thread to reign things in, it stops a heated discussion from turning into a mess.

For more information please refer to the Boards.ie FAQ.

If you wish to appeal this ban you can see details on how to do so here.

Skylinehead

Moderator Note

I told you. Ignoring moderation, personal attacks, nobody cares about your agenda. Goodbye.

Your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimsang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinehead View Post
Mod: Don't post here either. Your thread was closed for the reason of being utterly stupid, not to mention the agenda. The next time you bring it up gets you a lengthy ban.
What do you mean 'don't post here'. I'm posting relevant information to the topic on hand, highlighting hypocrisy of posters and you want to ban me. Enjoy your echo chamber, but don't call me when everything goes tits up for you.

Find one post of mine that is not relevant to the discussion on hand, or where i'm being utterly stupid. How dare you make such an accusation you authoritarian FASCIST.
I attacked you because you were calling me 'utterly stupid'. And then you ban me. ENjoy your echo chamber you fascist.
I called your thread stupid, not you. You're the only one making this personal. Not wasting any more time on you today."

By the way fascist is not a slur, it is an appropriate word for this situation.

Fascist: Fascism (/ˈf643;ɪzəm/) is a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

There were many other moderators posting in these threads aand seemed to have no problem with the discussion.
Personal attacks were allowed from one side unchallenged, and are blindingly obvious, yet my non-infraction gets a permanent ban.

Kimsang

To summarize:

Skylinehead:

Your posts are utterly stupid.

No one cares about your agenda.

Permanent ban.

Beasty

Your post has been moved from the Help Desk to the Dispute Resolution Forum, which deals with disputes over cards or bans

Please read the instructions at the head of the forum and in particular please note the first step in the process is to try and resolve this directly with the banning mod

In this case you have quoted the standard ban message with narrative added by the mod. Have you followed up with the mod to try and resolve this?

Kimsang

Beasty wrote: »

Your post has been moved from the Help Desk to the Dispute Resolution Forum, which deals with disputes over cards or bans

Please read the instructions at the head of the forum and in particular please note the first step in the process is to try and resolve this directly with the banning mod

In this case you have quoted the standard ban message with narrative added by the mod. Have you followed up with the mod to try and resolve this?

I called your thread stupid, not you. You're the only one making this personal. Not wasting any more time on you today.

This is the last message I got from him. All our our personal messages since the ban are included in my original post.

Beasty

OK, I will alert the CMods to this appeal

Kimsang

Beasty wrote: »

OK, I will alert the CMods to this appeal

Thank you and much appreciated.

Pawwed Rig

Can you post just the pms where you engaged with the mod in a civil manner to discuss the reasons for the ban? You seem to have blended on thread and off thread dialogue above so I am having difficulty separating the 2. Thanks.

Kimsang

Apologies, its difficult to cut and paste it doesn't keep the correct formatting from my inbox.

This is the first message I received from Skylinehead. Everything said here is said by skyline. He quotes the post I made in a the thread.

You have been banned
Dear Kimsang,

You have been permanently banned from After Hours for ignoring a moderator's instructions.

Discussion can become heated, we don't object to that, but when a moderator issues a warning on a thread to reign things in, it stops a heated discussion from turning into a mess.

For more information please refer to the Boards.ie FAQ.

If you wish to appeal this ban you can see details on how to do so here.

Skylinehead

Moderator Note

I told you. Ignoring moderation, personal attacks, nobody cares about your agenda. Goodbye.

Your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimsang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinehead View Post
Mod: Don't post here either. Your thread was closed for the reason of being utterly stupid, not to mention the agenda. The next time you bring it up gets you a lengthy ban.
What do you mean 'don't post here'. I'm posting relevant information to the topic on hand, highlighting hypocrisy of posters and you want to ban me. Enjoy your echo chamber, but don't call me when everything goes tits up for you.

Find one post of mine that is not relevant to the discussion on hand, or where i'm being utterly stupid. How dare you make such an accusation you authoritarian FASCIST.

This bit in bold was amended by skyline within the post after banning me. The original read as "Don't post here either. Your thread was closed for reason of being utterly stupid" the part about the 'next time you bring it up you get a lengthy ban was added in afterwards.

I replied with

I attacked you because you were calling me 'utterly stupid'. And then you ban me. ENjoy your echo chamber you fascist.

I received one final reply

I called your thread stupid, not you. You're the only one making this personal. Not wasting any more time on you today.

What is most relevant is the context of the conversation at the time. I made no infraction, and the mod did not refer to anything i specifically said. He closed my first thread and what he said is ambiguously could have called me or my post stupid. I then am told in a related topic 'don't post here anymore' without any further information about why or what I have done wrong.

Kimsang

This is the post skyline is referring to;

Boom there is your hypocrisy. Other thread about women attacking women gets closed without reason.

I was asked a question by a posted from this thread that is also relevant to this thread, so I will answer it unless the authoritarian mods decide it goes against their ideology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KikiLaRue View Post
Tell you what, since we’re all so thick, why don’t you explain what would need to happen to Call an attack against a gay couple a hate crime?

You’ve established that you don’t think homophobic slurs + violence = a hate crime, so in your mind, what does?
Good question.

Thank you for summing up my position fairly.

The defendant's actions, words, and affiliations often supplies the best evidence of his state of mind when committing a crime--including a hate crime.
But you must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the motivation for the attack was based on a certain characteristic.

Where a person who wears glasses attacked and called '4 eyes' this is not a hate crime. If the attacker was seen to hate people who wear glasses, had diaries about how they hate people who wore glasses, had a tattoo that they hated people who wore glasses, or openly espoused their hatred for people who wore glasses this would be a hate crime.

Evidence of Bias
Aside from defendant’s own statements, relevant evidence of bias might include:

defendant’s membership in a group that espouses hatred for certain groups (such as a black separatist group or an online chat group that opposes homosexuality)
defendant’s possession of literature or symbols associated with bias, such as Nazi memorabilia or anti-Semitic texts
defendant’s own writings, graffiti, or tattoos
the use of biased slurs or graffiti during or at the site of the crime
the date of the incident, if it coincides with a significant holiday or anniversary, and
other hate crimes committed by defendant.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...te-crimes.html


We have re-written the definition of hate -crime in recent times to be more of an umbrella term, but this dilutes the most heinous of hate crimes.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110394291&postcount=818

Pawwed Rig

Ok. I do not see any civil engagement here from either side. Please re engage with the mod and then update this thread with the correspondence.

Kimsang

Him calling me 'utterly stupid' and permanent banning me after one post without warning has left somewhat of a bad taste in my mouth. I fear I might say something I really would regret.

It was "Closed- no more threads op"

Then in the other thread "Don't post here either. Your thread was closed for the reason of being utterly stupid,"

Is there supposed to be a warning, or at least quote something that I've said that warranted closing the thread or denying me posting privileges in another? I mean would you ask someone who has been attacked to engage with their attacker?

Beasty

Please note only the appellant, relevant CMod and Admins are allowed to post in dispute thread unless invited to do so by CMod/Admin

Thanks

Kimsang

People like KikiLaRue were continually trolling in these threads asking the same questions, and ignoring the answers given to them . Increasingly in snarky and sarcastic tones, unchallenged by mods in the thread.

Examples include:

You’re the one who keeps avoiding a genuine question. I’m asking you in very simple terms to explain your position, and instead of giving me your point of view you are going on the attack. I never said you hate gay people.

I’m asking you why you think that the reasonable thing to do in this situation is to completely ignore the motive for the attack? Can you explain that?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110398023

Because it wasn’t incidental, it was clearly central to the attack. All the evidence points this way. If you and others want to claim it wasn’t a homophobic attack in the face of the evidence you need to come up with a stronger argument than “Even though the victims were gay and the suspects verbally made it abundantly clear that this was the motive for the attack, I don’t think it was so there!”

Can you point to anything which suggests their sexuality was not the motive?

There was never a point in society where we denied older people rights based on their age, so it’s not a valid comparison and you know it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110398005

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopsheep View Post
i do understand why this one line response to my reply is exactly the type of line taken

"but why do you hate gay people?!"

the last poster has chosen to lecture me about my homophic thoughts and acts.

lads, do you see why the inevitable accusations of being a troll or whatever start to get wearing?

do ye see why complaints from the right-on side to mods about how after hours is a cesspit and how awful this thread is are aggravatory, given your own responses to what is a genuine post?

ye want to debate or ye dont.
You’re the one who keeps avoiding a genuine question. I’m asking you in very simple terms to explain your position, and instead of giving me your point of view you are going on the attack. I never said you hate gay people.

I’m asking you why you think that the reasonable thing to do in this situation is to completely ignore the motive for the attack? Can you explain that?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110397831

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopsheep View Post
quote~~~

explaining how everyone you disagree with thinks -charming trait btw, always very convincing rhetorically-

~~~
But can you tell me in your own words why you are so determined to disregard the fact that the motive for this attack was homophobia?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110397553

When this thread was opened I genuinely thought most of the responses would be along the lines of “Jesus, that’s terrible. Isn’t it a shame that lesbian couple couldn’t just have a night out in peace?”

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110397547

I don’t understand why you want to ignore the blatant homophobia of the attack?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110397418

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopsheep View Post
i think we're almost a thousand posts into the hate crimes thread and i still havent seen a reasonable justification for why a crime needs such a categorisation

"for the stats, mannnn. why do you hate ~group x~"

once you're finished explaining how everyone you disagree with thinks -charming trait btw, always very convincing rhetorically- maybe you can set out why anyone should be enthused about an attack being labelled as misogynist or homophobic.

bonus points if you can set out the actual practical differences youd like to see or can already see in such labelling- longer sentences, higher conviction rates, whatever

you lose points for anything that approaches 'raising awareness', thems the rules
Because certain groups in society have faced horrific discrimination in the past. And because we have moved forward as a society, we try to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

I’ve answered your question, can you answer mine: Why are you so against recording attacks against specific groups who are particularly vulnerable?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110397221

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimsang View Post
Yet you ignore the threads of conversation we had where you stated your definition of hate crime.
Why not reply to the points I made, instead of throwing wild vitriol around?

The cognitive dissonance here is plain for all to see, that's why you're so emotional.
Tell you what, since we’re all so thick, why don’t you explain what would need to happen to Call an attack against a gay couple a hate crime?

You’ve established that you don’t think homophobic slurs + violence = a hate crime, so in your mind, what does?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110394221


There is a clear thread of trolling here the continual sentiment of

"why you are so determined to disregard the fact that the motive for this attack was homophobia?"

When it was answered hundreds of times. What is it called when you keep asking the same question and keep ignoring the answers??

Which implies that the poster must hate gay people. These are under-handed attacks, and the agenda is clear.

In after hours, people that complain about the motivations of others ARE THE PROBLEM with the forum.


And now we come to the most important, the last KikiLaRue post before I was banned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimsang View Post
'Victims' say a lot of things in our victim-hood culture.

I'm not disputing the fact that those people were attacked in London.
I dispute the motivation for those attacks.
Using hateful slurs during an attack doesn't constitute a hatecrime,

The motivation for the attack is what constitutes a hate crime. Nazis rounded jews up in systematically gassed them to death based on their religion. That is a hate crime.
The HOLOCAUST is where you draw the line? You have to literally be rounding people up and murdering them before it’s a hate crime?

You should see a therapist OP, that is truly messed up.

This is a blatant attack on me for pointing out facts, facts that go against the narrative of after hours. I then proceeded to call her 'what is wrong with society' Which is a fair and accurate statement. To say someone 'should see a therapist' is a clear slur.

dudara

Please confirm if you have attempted to re-engage with the mod, as requested earlier.

Kimsang

I have re-engaged.

Kimsang

Well it's been 24hours since I re engaged with the moderator Skylinehead,I'm not sure if he's ignoring the last 2 messages I sent to him, or maybe he hasn't found the time yet.

I sent a PM to skylinehead asking 3 questions. If the answers to these questions was legitimate, I would have been happy to uphold the ban and close this case.
However; the response does not make me feel any happier about the situation.

Unfortunately my sent mails are NOT being saved in my mailbox, so I will have to paraphrase my questions, but I invite skylinehead to post in full the messages that I sent to him.

The questions(paraphrased) were as follows;

"1. Why did you close my first thread, apart from the reason of being utterly stupid? Can you please quote or link me to where I was being utterly stupid
2. Why did you tell me in the second thread 'Don't post here anymore' without any reason, what was your reason?
3. Do you think banning me permanently was a proportional response?

The answer I received was

1. Your thread was "utterly stupid" because you were pushing your agenda against the homophobia attack thread with a silly strawman argument, thinking it's clever or something. Not to mention it being something already being discussed in that same thread, why did it need another? That ones relatively minor though.

I posted in the other thread because you were spamming your agenda all over that thread too. What next, yet another thread? Plus you commented on moderation, and insulted me. All against the charter, if you care to read it.

Was a permanent ban proportionate? Not for the threads, no. But you called me a fascist three separate times, and you're simply not the kind of poster we want in AH with that despicable attitude. Usually I'd reduce bans after civil discussion with the user, but no hope with you clearly.

I queried all of his points from this message, in a very long message of my own. I wish I could post that in full, but sent messages are not saved in my mail box. If an admin can somehow retrieve them from somewhere I would hope they can post those messages in full, or the mod in question Skyline head who received those messages.

My next message reminded him of the fact that fascist is a very real word, that has genuine meaning behind it, it is not just a slur. I was using it in its very real context.

He has shown fascistic tendencies by;
1. Closing my thread without discussion or reason.
2. Highlighting the fact that I called him a fascist as the worst infraction that I made.
3. Admitted that ban response was disproportionate to the infraction and because he felt like it.
4. Admitted :"I'm not the kind of poster WE want in after hours" The use of the word we here signals the subscription to an ideology.
5. wildly lashing out by calling my agenda homophobic, which equates to calling me homophobic. I have an agenda but it is not homophobic.


I'm yet to receive any clear indication of where exactly I am "Utterly Stupid" or have a "Despicable attitude".
I'm so tired of being told by people in modern society what my motivations are, when if asked I'll happily tell people.

Again, to summarize, me calling this mod an accurate descriptor for how the mod was acting, is not a slur. What other word can be used in this circumstance?
Do you believe the mod was not acting in this way?

Lastly, I would like to point out the hypocrisy that I was highlighting the thread that I created. I would like to show that is indeed not a 'strawman' argument as the moderator has alluded to.

To start I would like you to read the OP of this thread from afterhours:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057943294

The mod note on this post reads as follows;

Mod warning-Anyone attempting to conflate,amalgamate,consolidate,converge,fuse,meld,unify,unite,blend,coalesce,combine,commingle,network,mingle,mix or pool LGBT and pedophilia will be severely punished.

The rule is clear here, anyone attempting to link LGBT with paedophilia will be severely punished.
Presumably this would mean that if I were to write "why are some LGBT paedophiles?" I would be severely punished. Fair enough.

But then in another thread about men attacking a gay couple the OP read as ;

2 women were bloodily beaten up by a group of men in a violent homophobic attack. Why do some men get upset, angry and offended at gay people existing, they could have just minded their own business on what other's people's sexuality is but they rather intervene in strangers lives and beat them up for being gay.

This is conflating,amalgamating,consolidating,converging,fusing,melding,unifying,uniting,blending,coalescing,combining,commingling,netorking,mingling,mixing and pooling men to be 'offended at gay people existing'

I mentioned in that thread the hypocrisy of the post here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110382761&postcount=253

The utter hypocrisy in this thread is astounding. While not calling out the OP for " Why do some men get upset, angry and offended at gay people existing", they also attack other posters for querying more descriptors of the attackers. I suppose its ok to attack an entire half of the population if they are men.

Interesting that the gender of the attackers was also revealed and no one had a problem with that.
Here is a news report from the Limerick Leader of 1 week ago where 4 girls attacked another girl. Where is the thread about this or is it also somehow the patriarchy's fault.

Were I to write a thread along the lines of OP's based on this story, it would read "Why do some women get upset, angry and offended at other women existing", you can see the hypocrisy in not calling the OP out.

I was told in that thread that it is not hypocritical, and If i created such a post no-one would have a problem with it.


I did create the thread and judging by the reactions on the first page alone, I was proved correct.
My OP from this thread

A young woman was assaulted and robbed while waiting at Arthurs’ Quay in the early hours of last Friday morning(fri 24th May) by a group of women.

Why do some women get upset, angry, emotional, virtriolic, nasty, vicious and just down right offended at other women existing?

They could have just minded their business about the gender of who they were attacking, but they rather intervene in stranger's lives and beat them up for being a woman!

https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=ie

People asked questions such as ;

Scum bags attack innocent victim. What's the gender got to do with it? The scum bag trait exists among men and women.

what difference does gender make (surely irrelevant??).

What has gender to do with it? And apart from the gender of the victim and perpetrators have I missed something?

Why is that clear?Why is it a hate crime?

I would invite Skylinehead to post all 3 messages here (in full) or give permission to admin if they can access them somehow, but I can't access them. I spent a lot of time querying the post he sent to me, and have yet to receive a response.

Pawwed Rig

Admin cannot access pms.
I will ask the mod for what you sent to him.

To be clear your claim that calling him a fascist was not meant as an insult is not going to fly. You are insulting my intelligence by claiming otherwise.

Kimsang

I believe if my point is proved to be correct, and certainly from my current point of view - there is no other more accurate description in this circumstance.

If you can find me a more accurate descriptor for describing these exact traits I will concede your point.

Fascist: A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government — and no tolerance for opposing opinions.

To be clear, are we saying that if someone calls someone else 'fat' this is an insult?

Beasty

Kimsang wrote: »

I believe if my point is proved to be correct, and certainly from my current point of view - there is no other more accurate description in this circumstance.

If you can find me a more accurate descriptor for describing these exact traits I will concede your point.



To be clear, are we saying that if someone calls someone else 'fat' this is an insult?

From the details of how to appeal a card or ban, at teh head of this forum

Posting abusive comments about a moderator you have issue with will result in further action being taken – this could be an escalation of Infraction to ban or a ban to a category ban

If this is your approach to the moderator in question I'm closing this up and marking your appeal as resolved. If you are incapable of engaging civilly, either with the mod in question, or in this thread then your appeal has failed