Gave my manager 2 sick certs and she says there can't be days in between?

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

No I was quoting you for a reason. Specifically. "but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense"

Your believe your job as a manager trumps the sick leave policies of your company ?

As I have repeatedly stated, if my employer's sick policy is you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work, and the company pays your sick days (no social welfare involvement), then if a person on my team provides sick certs for the days they were absent from work, they have met the company policy. It is not their fault the HR person is confused.

jlm29

the14thwarrior wrote: »

The HSE has a sick leave policy, and if you work for them, you need to follow the policy. thats the simple fact. unfortunately the manager is right.
Its one of those things that as a manager you have to manage with equity, else it will be abused.
abseentisim rates were very high, and in fairness, a massive push has been done to address it. so the HSE addressed it. hence the crackdown on these things.

to my knowledge, sick certs need to be signed by GP, and not a hospital consultant but i could be wrong on this.

and in the old days you needed a cert if you were out on a MOnday or a Friday even if it was just for one day, but now you don't. as long as you return to work after the third day.

I’ve had them signed by a consultant rather than a GP, (im also a hse employee). Though as an aside, I was told today that the hse only accept weekly certs, do you happen to know if that’s true? (Sorry for the OT)

the14thwarrior

OMM 0000 wrote: »

As I have repeatedly stated, if my employer's sick policy is you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work, and the company pays your sick days (no social welfare involvement), then if a person on my team provides sick certs for the days they were absent from work, they have met the company policy. It is not their fault the HR person is confused.

thats grand. does not help the OP. you don't work for the HSE ?

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

As I have repeatedly stated, if my employer's sick policy is you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work, and the company pays your sick days (no social welfare involvement), then if a person on my team provides sick certs for the days they were absent from work, they have met the company policy. It is not their fault the HR person is confused.

See those two if's, you need to check them.

It would be highly unusual that any private company's sick leave policy started and ended with a sentence that stated "you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work".

You are telling me that if your staff are out for 3 weeks continuously, that you count that as 15 days

tinner777

jlm29 wrote: »

I’ve had them signed by a consultant rather than a GP, (im also a hse employee). Though as an aside, I was told today that the hse only accept weekly certs, do you happen to know if that’s true? (Sorry for the OT)

No that's incorrect.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

The Organisation of Working Time Act doesn't say anything about employees needing to provide sick certs on your rest days.

Why were you pretending it does?

What do you mean I'm on shaky ground if government services require sick certs but companies can make up their own policy.

You're not making sense.

If you're just trying to "win" by muddying the waters, I have no interest in playing this game with you.

Dear God, there is no statutory requirement for employees to hand in a sick cert, the policy is defined by the employer in the employee contract. Certs do not excuse you from work, they just explain your absence.

The OWTA defines working and rest periods, while on rest period you are still employed, ergo the employer can require that the cert covers rest periods when you are fit for work, but not rostered to do so. You really shouldn’t be giving advice to your team.

What I meant by the public service and Unions, if this policy was not legal, do you think the Unions would stand for it?

OMM 0000

the14thwarrior wrote: »

thats grand. does not help the OP. you don't work for the HSE ?

I've said a few times I don't want to derail the topic, but people want to discuss this (my posts), so here I am.

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

See those two if's, you need to check them.

It would be highly unusual that any private company's sick leave policy started and ended with a sentence that stated "you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work".

You are telling me that if your staff are out for 3 weeks continuously, that you count that as 15 days

If a person is out for three weeks, and during those three weeks they went to the doctor three times, and got sick notes which covered every day they were absent, then they have clearly proven they were sick on those days.

You have to be making an effort to be difficult to refuse to accept their proof.

I'm not going to go round in circles on this with you.

tinner777

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Your manager's a moron. I cannot stand people like her.

You provided sick certs for the days you were off. This should be the end of it as you've proven you really were sick.

Do you have a company policy handbook or something like that you can refer to?

This is your first quote. You do not work for the hse yet you still call the manager a moron for doing her job??

jlm29

tinner777 wrote: »

No that's incorrect.

Ideal. Thanks!

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

If a person is out for three weeks, and during those three weeks they went to the doctor three times, and got sick notes which covered every day they were absent, then they have clearly proven they were sick on those days.

You have to be making an effort to be difficult to refuse to accept their proof.

I'm not going to go round in circles on this with you.

A continuous absence of three weeks ? So the certificates said they were fit to resume work on the Saturday and then you got one two days later to say they were unfit again, three weeks in a row?

Seriously. Its nothing to do with accepting their proof. NO doctor would provide a medical certificate in this way. Regardless of a company's sick leave policies, employees can choose to seek illness benefit !

And you commented on a public service policy ala "your manager is a moron". This is the HSE Policy on Sick Leave.


It wouldn't be in line with your management style lol.

OMM 0000

Dav010 wrote: »

Dear God, there is no statutory requirement for employees to hand in a sick cert, the policy is defined by the employer in the employee contract. Certs do not excuse you from work, they just explain your absence.

The OWTA defines working and rest periods, while on rest period you are still employed, ergo the employer can require that the cert covers rest periods when you are fit for work, but not rostered to do so. You really shouldn’t be giving advice to your team.

What I meant by the public service and Unions, if this policy was not legal, do you think the Unions would stand for it?

Previously you kept referring to the OWTA as authority that sick notes are required on rest days.

In fact, the OWTA has nothing to do with this conversation.

And it doesn't matter if some random government department has a different sick policy to the company I work for. Or a union. These things are totally irrelevant.

You admit a company can make up whatever sick policy it wants, as long as it's not illegal.

So it comes down to company policy and internal politics.

You're obviously a letter of the law person. I'm more of a spirit of the law person.

By all means keep doing things your way, but your repeated comment that I should not be giving advice to my teams is quite ignorant considering you know nothing about where I work, what I do, what my teams are like, how much power I have, etc.

Go ahead and have the last word.

OMM 0000

tinner777 wrote: »

This is your first quote. You do not work for the hse yet you still call the manager a moron for doing her job??

And then someone explained the HSEs policies and I agreed what the manager is doing makes sense.

That's not allowed?

tinner777

OMM 0000 wrote: »

And then someone explained the HSEs policies and I agreed what the manager is doing makes sense.

That's not allowed?

ok, fair enough

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Previously you kept referring to the OWTA as authority that sick notes are required on rest days.

In fact, the OWTA has nothing to do with this conversation.

And it doesn't matter if some random government department has a different sick policy to the company I work for. Or a union. These things are totally irrelevant.

You admit a company can make up whatever sick policy it wants, as long as it's not illegal.

So it comes down to company policy and internal politics.

You're obviously a letter of the law person. I'm more of a spirit of the law person.

By all means keep doing things your way, but your repeated comment that I should not be giving advice to my teams is quite ignorant considering you know nothing about where I work, what I do, what my teams are like, how much power I have, etc.

Go ahead and have the last word.

Can you not self certify for 5 days?

the14thwarrior

OMM 0000 wrote: »

And then someone explained the HSEs policies and I agreed what the manager is doing makes sense.

That's not allowed?

Now I'm confused. With your posts,

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

A continuous absence of three weeks ? So the certificates said they were fit to resume work on the Saturday and then you got one two days later to say they were unfit again, three weeks in a row?

Seriously. Its nothing to do with accepting their proof. NO doctor would provide a medical certificate in this way. Regardless of a company's sick leave policies, employees can choose to seek illness benefit !

And you commented on a public service policy ala "your manager is a moron". This is the HSE Policy on Sick Leave.


It wouldn't be in line with your management style lol.

Obviously the certs don't say the person is fit to resume work on the Saturday and Sunday.

No certs look like that.

Have you never been sick where you had to repeatedly go back to the doctor like the OP? The certs are exactly as he described.

tinner777

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you not self certify for 5 days?

7 days in a two year period, then no pay

the14thwarrior

the14thwarrior wrote: »

Now I'm confused. With your posts,

truth be told i feel sick with it.
think i'll call in sick

Paul_Mc1988

Edit wrong thread

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Obviously the certs don't say the person is fit to resume work on the Saturday and Sunday.

No certs look like that.

Have you never been sick where you had to repeatedly go back to the doctor like the OP? The certs are exactly as he described.

YES THEY DO, otherwise they are issued on a "weekly" basis.

A medical certificate must be signed by a doctor and should indicate when you will be able to return to work

Good God man. GP's have clear certification guidelines to follow.


https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr220915.aspx


http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Medical-Certification-Under-Social-Welfare-Legislation-Instr.aspx

Oh and by the way, the medical certificate does not need to be seen or cleared by you, as its none of your business as a manager, but solely a matter for the employer.

But you knew that right ?

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

YES THEY DO, otherwise they are issued on a "weekly" basis.


A medical certificate must be signed by a doctor and should indicate when you will be able to return to work


Good God man. GP's have clear certification guidelines to follow.


https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr220915.aspx


http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Medical-Certification-Under-Social-Welfare-Legislation-Instr.aspx

"Good God man" do you know what "guideline" means?

Did you even look at the first link you provided?

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

Oh and by the way, the medical certificate does not need to be seen or cleared by you, as its none of your business as a manager, but solely a matter for the employer.

But you knew that right ?

This is getting silly, so I need to stop responding.

What do you think my job title is?

myshirt

I got caught by this one too. The doctor gave me a sick note until Friday but had verbally said rest up and recover until Monday. She knows I work a Monday to Friday 9 to 5.30 gig. I was in such a ball of sickness I didn't even realise. Nor did I give a sh't about anything. Was not functioning right at all.

The first thing my employer said when I gave the note is that I could catch up Saturday morning. So I had to put in two 10 hour days, Sat and Sun, where I wasn't 100% match fit. Thankfully I was about 70%, so I pushed through it.

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

"Good God man" do you know what "guideline" means?

Did you even look at the first link you provided?

Yes. I did. GP's stick rigidly to them.

In the context of this discussion it relevant.

Outside Public Service policy (which you were keen to comment on) NO private company that I have ever worked for has alllowed the company's sick leave policy to be interpreted or dictated by a manager. It is simply none of your business, other than being fed the return date for an employee.

Whilst you have been making claims that YOU have been accepting medical certificates on a work basis ala your own management style, it could never be your call. It is a function of your HR Division.

Everyday is a learning day, eh ?

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

Yes. I did. GP's stick rigidly to them.

In the context of this discussion it relevant.

Outisde Public Service policy (which you were keen to comment on) NO private company that I have ever worked for has alllowed the company's sick leave policy to be interpreted or dictated by a manager. It is simply none of your business, other than being fed the return date for an employee.

Whilst you have been making claims that YOU have been accepting medical certificates on a work basis ala your own management style, it could never be your call. It is a function of your HR Division.

You seem to know so much about my company's policies.

Which company do I work for?

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is getting silly, so I need to stop responding.

What do you think my job title is?

Let me guess.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Even if it's policy, I disagree.

I'm a manager and I'm aware stuff like this demotivates staff, so I would force HR to accept it.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You seem to know so much about my company's policies.

I don't know anything about your company's sick leave policies other than your attitude towards them. It is very important that you understand them though, and you should realise that you would have a very peripheral role.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

If this happened to someone on my team, I would not accept HRs request for sick certs for the Saturday and Sunday. Why? A) It's not necessary, just tick the box saying you got their sick certs and This sort of thing makes people dislike their job.

It is not your role, even as a manager, to dictate company policy. You need to realise that you do not have a say, even as a manager.

Stop. Now.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

What do you think my job title is?

“Misinformed”?

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

It is not your role, even as a manager, to dictate company policy. You need to realise that you do not have a say.

This is hilarious.

You still don't know my job title yet you're telling me I need to realise I don't have a say.

I'm going to put you out of your misery and tell you.

I work for a Japanese multinational in a spinoff company. I'm the CTO. I have the authority to tell HR to **** off.

Previous to this I was a director in one of the world's largest companies.

Previous to that I was in middle management.

My background is software stuff.

I need to sleep.

i think yr job title is "real badass" and location may well be "over here"

myshirt

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is hilarious.

You still don't know my job title yet you're telling me I need to realise I don't have a say.

I'm going to put you out of your misery and tell you.

I work for a Japanese multinational in a spinoff company. I'm the CTO. I have the authority to tell HR to **** off.

Previous to this I was a director in one of the world's largest companies.

Previous to that I was in middle management.

My background is software stuff.

I need to sleep.

You don't have the authority to tell anyone to f*ck off. I've told a couple of CTO's to pack their bags and f*ck off in my time, and I'll tell you if you ever developed that attitude in front of me or one of the boards I'm on you'd never work there again. A CTO never ever has the authority to tell anyone f*ck off. Ever. Learn it now. And learn it forever.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is hilarious.

You still don't know my job title yet you're telling me I need to realise I don't have a say.

I'm going to put you out of your misery and tell you.

I work for a Japanese multinational in a spinoff company. I'm the CTO. I have the authority to tell HR to **** off.

Previous to this I was a director in one of the world's largest companies.

Previous to that I was in middle management.

My background is software stuff.

I need to sleep.

Doesn’t matter if you are God almighty descended to walk amongst us, you are still misinformed about sick leave policies here. And calling a manager a moron for doing their job shows the height of ignorance.

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

This is hilarious.

You are hilarious.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You still don't know my job title yet you're telling me I need to realise I don't have a say.

I'm going to put you out of your misery and tell you.

I work for a Japanese multinational in a spinoff company. I'm the CTO. I have the authority to tell HR to **** off.

Previous to this I was a director in one of the world's largest companies.

Previous to that I was in middle management.

My background is software stuff.

Thank you (I think). I never asked you what your title is or for that a matter for a copy of your resume.

Regardless of your perceived status as being a Chief Technical Officer, its blasé attitudes towards company policy that land companies on the wrong end of employee claims.


Thanks for the laugh maverick.

OMM 0000

myshirt wrote: »

You don't have the authority to tell anyone to f*ck off. I've told a couple of CTO's to pack their bags and f*ck off in my time, and I'll tell you if you ever developed that attitude in front of me or one of the boards I'm on you'd never work there again. A CTO never ever has the authority to tell anyone f*ck off. Ever. Learn it now. And learn it forever.

Haha, good one.

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

Regardless of your perceived status as being a Chief Technical Officer, its blasé attitudes towards company policy that land companies on the wrong end of employee claims.

Now you're introducing a strawman. Literally the opposite of what I'm saying.

Me: If a company policy says you must have sick notes covering the days of work you missed, and the employee does so, the employer is being difficult by refusing to accept them because "the sick notes didn't explicitly state Saturday and Sunday", days the employee does not work. (Again I'm talking about companies who just pay sick pay; there's no illness benefit messiness involved).

I'm literally following the spirit of the policy, and very much on the employee's side. So why would an employee take a claim against me in this scenario?

You: Its blasé attitudes like this which land companies on the wrong end of employee claims.



I know you need to "win", but you're not being reasonable.

How exactly would what I've done result in an employee making a claim?

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Now you're introducing a strawman. Literally the opposite of what I'm saying.

Me: If a company policy says you must have sick notes covering the days of work you missed, and the employee does so, the employer is being difficult by refusing to accept them because "the sick notes didn't explicitly state Saturday and Sunday", days the employee does not work. (Again I'm talking about companies who just pay sick pay; there's no illness benefit messiness involved).

I'm literally following the spirit of the policy, and very much on the employee's side. So why would an employee take a claim against me in this scenario?

I don't need a strawman. I very much doubt your company's sick leave policy is confined to one line ala "you must have sick notes covering the days of work you missed". Perhaps you should read it.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You: Its blasé attitudes like this which land companies on the wrong end of employee claims.



I know you need to "win", but you're not being reasonable.

How exactly would what I've done result in an employee making a claim?

Its nothing to do with winning. Its to do with your attitude that you know better. I didn't ask you to tell me what your position was. I didn't ask for your resume. You told everyone here, as if it meant something.


When push comes to shove, your company would use that sick leave policy to pay/not pay employees regardless of their position, including "CTO's"


Your attitude and self importance is shocking.

bucketybuck

STB. wrote: »

Your attitude and self importance is shocking.

His lack of understanding is hilarious though, if a little worrying for his staff (if they even exist, although it is true that many people get promoted into positions they are not equipped for)

You always know someone is clutching at straws when they start accusing others of using straw man arguments when illustrating a point.

Sick leave policies don’t mention “days you are supposed to work” they mention “absence due to illness” and/or “unable to attend due to illness”.

The point you don’t seem to be able to accept OMM 000 is that you don’t get to dictate sick leave policy to your employer, and you certainly should not be rejecting policies stated in employee contract on behalf of your team.

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

I very much doubt your company's sick leave policy is confined to one line ala "you must have sick notes covering the days of work you missed". Perhaps you should read it.

Who said my company's sick leave policy is one line?

What are you talking about?

Dav010 wrote: »

The point you don’t seem to be able to accept OMM 000 is that you don’t get to dictate sick leave policy to your employer, and you certainly should not be rejecting policies stated in employee contract on behalf of your team.

Have you even read any of my posts?

This is the last time I'll try to explain it to you. I'll make it super short and simple. Please read it before commenting.

Sick leave policy (summarised): Sick notes must cover days of work missed through illness.

Employee's sick notes: "Joe was unfit for work Thursday and Friday.", "Joe was unfit for work Monday and Tuesday".

Employee and my interpretation: That covers the 4 days he missed through illness.

HR interpretation: We know he doesn't work Saturday and Sunday, but I'd like the notes to include those days too.

Me: No, it's fine.

HR: But...

Me: Seriously it's fine.

HR: OK...

I understand this means I'm sort of nazi manager.

OMM 0000

I think the issue here is you guys don't understand the difference between C-level and middle management. They are totally different worlds.

Any further discussion will be a waste of time. So I'm checking out now.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think the issue here is you guys don't understand the difference between C-level and middle management. They are totally different worlds.

Any further discussion will be a waste of time. So I'm checking out now.

Regrettably your arrogance prevents you from understanding that the employer can state in the employee contract what their policy on sick leave is. If that includes certs to cover rest period, which forms part of your working week as per the OWTA, then it is not for you to decide whether that is right or wrong.

You seem to think you have a right to reject your company’s policy, you can of course do so, but don’t call other managers morons for doing their job, and don’t be stupid enough to put your own team at risk of censure just because you can’t understand the basic concept.

OMM 0000

Dav010 wrote: »

Regrettably your arrogance prevents you from understanding that the employer can state in the employee contract what their policy on sick leave is.

You really think that's what I've been saying?

If so you're arguing against some non-existent point.

Maybe go back and read my posts when you've calmed down.

Literally my post before this says:

Sick leave policy (summarised): Sick notes must cover days of work missed through illness.

Yet you interpret that to mean I don't think companies can state their sick policy.

Odd.

Good luck to you.

The most inane shlte I've ever read.

i have serious doubts about the global top-level brilliance of someone who misses the vital context of "HSE" in the opening post and is still in here arguing what they have already admitted is an approach that is 100% incorrect in that context.

maybe you are indeed all of the (americanised) things you claim but to be honest all you are demonstrating is the reason centralised corporate policy units like HR are taken out of the hands of front line operation managers.

and why CTO personnel have their specialist area and corporate have theirs

good luck to you, im glad youre doing so well in life. i can certainly presume your technical skills are immense if we can take yr boards cv at face value. its not because youre the nightmare "only my team matters everyone else is a moron" individual youre presenting here.

realdanbreen

breadbin wrote: »

What should I have done in this instance then and what should I do now? I work in the HSE.

Threaten to put a picket on the place, everybody driving past goes beep beep, the state will cave in give ye more money/ fringe benefits! It's a no brainer works every time.

What if you're sick for two different things? Like vomiting bug on the Friday and a tooth ache on the Monday?

DearieMe

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You really think that's what I've been saying?

If so you're arguing against some non-existent point.

Maybe go back and read my posts when you've calmed down.

Literally my post before this says:



Yet you interpret that to mean I don't think companies can state their sick policy.

Odd.

Good luck to you.

The problem is that you saw a post regarding HSE sick leave requirements and without any prior knowledge or understanding, you jumped head first in to tell everyone what to say and do. You continued this by insulting the HR team and more importantly the manager (both of which are just doing their job).

What you should have done is say to yourself "well I have no knowledge of the sick leave policy in a Public Service body like the HSE, so I have no reason to comment or add my 2 cents".

But instead you had to chime in with how great you are as a manager in a system that has no bearing on the question at hand, commenting on all the roles you've held, which once again add nothing to a discussion about Public Service policy.

You've literally provided the OP with no relevant advice, support or guidelines to follow.

If you're not prepared to follow basic policy and guidelines, blame others at the drop of a hat for a system you don't understand but still have to take time add your opinion in quite a rude and obnoxious manner, I would honestly hate to be working under you.

OMM 0000

DearieMe wrote: »

The problem is that you saw a post regarding HSE sick leave requirements and without any prior knowledge or understanding, you jumped head first in to tell everyone what to say and do. You continued this by insulting the HR team and more importantly the manager (both of which are just doing their job).

What you should have done is say to yourself "well I have no knowledge of the sick leave policy in a Public Service body like the HSE, so I have no reason to comment or add my 2 cents".

But instead you had to chime in with how great you are as a manager in a system that has no bearing on the question at hand, commenting on all the roles you've held, which once again add nothing to a discussion about Public Service policy.

You've literally provided the OP with no relevant advice, support or guidelines to follow.

If you're not prepared to follow basic policy and guidelines, blame others at the drop of a hat for a system you don't understand but still have to take time add your opinion in quite a rude and obnoxious manner, I would honestly hate to be working under you.

That's not what happened at all.

When someone pointed out this is the HSE and they have very strict rules on this due to illness benefit payments, I replied:

Yes I can understand in the OPs situation he probably has no choice but to get his doctor to change the cert to cover the weekend.

Then the conversation changed to being about having to follow HRs commands to the letter, or whether a senior manager has a right to overrule them in the specific scenario where the sickness policy requires certs for the days you were absent from work, and the company pays sick days and does not get social welfare involved.

I'm saying a senior manager can do this, because they can, I do it, all my C-level colleagues do this like this. C-level and middle management are not the same.

Other people are saying HR rules are god.

as chief head honcho in charge meself, which i definitely am, im the most qualified, the best:

i sack anybody who says c-level on irish message boards

i just straight-up sack em

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think the issue here is you guys don't understand the difference between C-level and middle management. They are totally different worlds.

No. The problem is you don't understand that you are not the employer. The terms and conditions of a contract are between the employee and the company, not CTO's or Heads of Function.

You talk to random strangers on the internet, not knowing who they are or what they do. Your arrogance and messiah like self importance is astounding. You cannot see where your responsibilities start and finish and you tried to make it a dick measuring competition.

They are the issues.

As pointed out your contribution is zilch as far as this thread is concerned. So just drop it please.