formal disciplinary procedures

gauchesnell

Hi ya

Looking for advice

Can an employee insist on formal disciplinary process be commenced even if a manager doesnt want to.

Manager has breached the policy and the accusations are false.

_Brian

No the employee cannot force proceedings if management don’t want to.

If they feel unfairly treated they should make a complaint about the incident.

Are they false as in the employee feels the manager made a mistake, or does the employee feel they are false as in the manager made them up ?

gauchesnell

nope manager made them up. Not true and no evidence to back it up. Employee is willing to go down the formal disciplinary route though and would be their preference.

Manager in question has history of making random allegations or accusations against staff.

Will note that the manager made the accusation and found the person guilty in the same email. No investigation or nothing.

Dav010

gauchesnell wrote: »

nope manager made them up. Not true and no evidence to back it up. Employee is willing to go down the formal disciplinary route though and would be their preference.

Manager in question has history of making random allegations or accusations against staff.

Will note that the manager made the accusation and found the person guilty in the same email. No investigation or nothing.

Was the person sanctioned/disciplined after being “found guilty”?

gauchesnell

yes...all contained in one email.

No investigation, no opportunity to respond and all false.

Dav010

gauchesnell wrote: »

yes...all contained in one email.

No investigation, no opportunity to respond and all false.

What was the sanction?

gauchesnell

to issue an email to people involved rescinding information.

Seems minor I know

Dav010

gauchesnell wrote: »

to issue an email to people involved rescinding information.

Seems minor I know

Usually employee handbook will lay out the disciplinary procedure and possible sanctions, verbal warning, written warning, suspension, termination etc. It doesn’t look like you received any of these so it doesn’t look like there was a disciplinary process at all. It would certainly be unusual to request a disciplinary process, what if the outcome supports the manager?

What does “rescinding information” mean?

gauchesnell

exactly thanks ....yeah we have a policy but nothing has been followed.

Without going into details the employee is alleged to have said xxxxx to people.

Manager in an email wants employee to send out email rescinding information allegedly said.

Thing is employee would like to commence the formal disciplinary now.

bilbot79

On the face of it you're just annoyed with your boss.

Bosses be bossin. Just suck it up

punisher5112

Employee has a case and can go the wrc route...

That is shocking to be honest....

I've had accusations thrown at me as well and I really detest this crap.

Dav010

gauchesnell wrote: »

exactly thanks ....yeah we have a policy but nothing has been followed.

Without going into details the employee is alleged to have said xxxxx to people.

Manager in an email wants employee to send out email rescinding information allegedly said.

Thing is employee would like to commence the formal disciplinary now.

Why would he/she want a formal disciplinary process? The manager just told him/her to behave themselves and apologise for any offence caused.

Dav010

punisher5112 wrote: »

Employee has a case and can go the wrc route...

That is shocking to be honest....

I've had accusations thrown at me as well and I really detest this crap.

What is shocking? While op’s posts don’t give much info, it sounds like someone was being gobby and was told to cop on. No disciplinary sanction.

gauchesnell

sorry dont want to give too much info as dont want person involved to be identified.

Employee would welcome formal process as accusation is totally false. Was no acting the mick or offence or anything like that. Werent caught doing anything at all. Randam false accusation. If it was true employee would admit it and move on.

Separately the manager in question has a record of making false accusations against staff and over the last 18 months 5 staff have left due to their behaviour.

While this is the first accusation against this employee the manager in question is currently making false accusations against other members of the same team. None of which are true.

blindsider

The employee can make a formal complaint about the manager. This might be to the manager's boss, or to HR, or both. There should be a policy which should be followed. The Employee Handbook should tell the employee what to expect.

If s/he doesn't have a handbook, ask HR for it.

punisher5112

Dav010 wrote: »

What is shocking? While op’s posts don’t give much info, it sounds like someone was being gobby and was told to cop on. No disciplinary sanction.

Eh???? Exactly what I said is shocking....

No reason for blame and an attack from higher up for no reason....

I've had very similar and have no problems at stating exactly what was said and what I had actually not done....

gauchesnell

again 100% no gobbiness and just would prefer not to give too much details online

Appreciate the replies. Employee's preference is for formal disciplinary action as accusation is totally false. Main question is can employee force it. Doesnt seem so.

Employee is ready to go if Employer does decide to go down that route.

kravmaga

gauchesnell wrote: »

Hi ya

Looking for advice

Can an employee insist on formal disciplinary process be commenced even if a manager doesnt want to.

Manager has breached the policy and the accusations are false.

You must have a Staff handbook which would cover investigations and the disciplinary process step by step.

Do you have a union in your workplace, i.e. SIPTU ??

Contact HR Department for further clarification maybe?

gauchesnell

sorry have it all and read it....employer hasnt followed the correct procedure at all and employee has written to employer requesting formal procedures be commenced and quoting the policy.

just was looking for opinions thats all

_Brian

His doesn’t really make sense.

An employee can’t reqiest a manager start disciplinary procedures against them, that’s a bizarre request and honestly the employee is embarrassing themselves doing it.

If they feel unfairly treated they need to refuse to send the email that was requested, wait them and see what the managers next step is.
The manager may forget the whole thing and so it will go away.

Or the manager may then decide to begin disciplinary proceedings.

Requesting an employee send out an email isn’t a sanction and isn’t a disciplinary of any sort.

At any stage the employee can sit down and make a written complaint about how they have been treated by the manager. This is the route I would suggest.

Sitting back and saying “go on, discipline me” is just being as unprofessional as the manager has been.

I would point out to everyone of course the usual, we’ve only heard one side of the story.

what id advise here, and particularly if you want to force the issue, is that you should simply refuse to send the mail as requested.

ball in managers court.

if the mail goes out from somebody else and you object to the contents, thats where you can make your own move.

gauchesnell

ah super thanks for that. Yes thats the route. appreciate people may find it odd to request to request disciplinary process but other events are forcing hand.

Again dont want to outline too much as dont wish to identify employee. As mentioned manager is in the habit of making accusations towards staff and numerous staff have left over their behaviour. Employee in question seems to be next in line for this targeted behavior. Also the employees targeted by the manager are of the same gender. Within the policies of the employee's workplace an email would be in line with a sanction or disciplinary action.

Thanks for that

Jim2007

gauchesnell wrote: »

ah super thanks for that. Yes thats the route. appreciate people may find it odd to request to request disciplinary process but other events are forcing hand.

Again dont want to outline too much as dont wish to identify employee. As mentioned manager is in the habit of making accusations towards staff and numerous staff have left over their behaviour. Employee in question seems to be next in line for this targeted behavior. Also the employees targeted by the manager are of the same gender. Within the policies of the employee's workplace an email would be in line with a sanction or disciplinary action.

Thanks for that

Absolute nonsense. The vast majority of your posts represents hear say and a personal vendetta, rather than thing else. If you want to make a complain then do so. But be aware that unsubstantiated claims have consequences and you could find yourself before a real judge facing defamation.

gauchesnell

Jim2007 wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. The vast majority of your posts represents hear say and a personal vendetta, rather than thing else. If you want to make a complain then do so. But be aware that unsubstantiated claims have consequences and you could find yourself before a real judge facing defamation.

well no unless you work in the same place as the employee you are completely incorrect. Not unsubstantiated claims either. Accusation is in writing and can be provided incorrect by written evidence and witness statements if required. Think you are confusing the query. All other accusations against other staff members have been in writing and again can be proven false. No hearsay at all. All in writing and documented.

Not personal vendetta. Other staff who have been targeted by employer have left and employee would be happy to be moved.

Appreciate the reply

Dav010

But if you haven’t been subject to a disciplinary procedure, and haven’t been disciplined, why on earth would you request a disciplinary hearing ? I’m sorry, I just don’t get it.

What if they refuse your request, because there is no need as the employee hasn’t done anything that the employer deems serious enough to warrant one? Are you going to demand to be disciplined?

This is bizarre.

gauchesnell

no worries

employer sent an email to the employee. Within the email the employer made an accusation against the employee, found the employee guilty and issued a sanction/action against the employee. Accusation is totally false and can be proven false. Correct procedures haven't been followed.

Employee has requested formal disciplinary procedure be commenced.

If they refuse and continue with sanction employee will proceed with complaint against employer.

Seems weird I know but as stated already employer has made accusations against other employees previously. Against false and can be proven false. Those employees suffered repercussions and then those employees left. Possibly havent had as secure a contract as employee.

The issue would be the employer making more accusations against the employee which based on their history is to be expected. Employee would this false accusation to be the first and final false accusation.

Dav010

gauchesnell wrote: »

no worries

employer sent an email to the employee. Within the email the employer made an accusation against the employee, found the employee guilty and issued a sanction/action against the employee. Accusation is totally false and can be proven false. Correct procedures haven't been followed.

Employee has requested formal disciplinary procedure be commenced.

If they refuse and continue with sanction employee will proceed with complaint against employer.

Seems weird I know but as stated already employer has made accusations against other employees previously. Against false and can be proven false. Those employees suffered repercussions and then those employees left. Possibly havent had as secure a contract as employee.

The issue would be the employer making more accusations against the employee which based on their history is to be expected. Employee would this false accusation to be the first and final false accusation.

But, disciplinary procedures must be followed when a formal disciplinary procedure is undertaken. Was there a disciplinary hearing, and what disciplinary sanction? Did your colleague get a formal warning which will go on his/her employee record? Disciplinary policy is laid out in employee handbook, but it followed when a formal process is undertaken.

gauchesnell

nope thats the point. Apologies. A sanction was issued without the formal procedure being followed. If the formal procedure was followed the accusation would have been proven false.

No presentation of evidence, no opportunity to reply nothing.

employee knows what to do now though thanks

Dav010

gauchesnell wrote: »

nope thats the point. Apologies. A sanction was issued without the formal procedure being followed. If the formal procedure was followed the accusation would have been proven false.

No presentation of evidence, no opportunity to reply nothing.

employee knows what to do now though thanks

Was it a formal sanction which was placed on their work record?, if it wasn’t, the employee is going to make a fool of themself requesting a disciplinary hearing where one wasn’t deemed necessary. It will be refused and any hope of progressing will go with it.

Instructions to send an email isn’t a formal sanction by the way.

gauchesnell

it is as per employees workplace policy. Email would also require employee to admit to an accusation that was false. If employee is refused employee will make complaint about manager in line with policy.

In line with employees own workplace policy malicious and/or false accusations can lead to disciplinary action aswell