Citizens' Assembly on gender equality only going to focus on helping women, it seems

iptba

https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/

Voting Results - Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality

Members of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality speak about their experience
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svmFRyuDP6Q


Press Release including full list of Recommendations can be viewed here https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/press-release.docx

Members’ Open Letter to the Oireachtas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK99oilsSE4


Open Letter to the Oireachtas can be viewed here
https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/open-letter-to-the-oireachtas-english.pdf

Is féidir leagan Gaeilge a fheiceáil anseo.

Full list of recommendations can be viewed here
https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/full-list-of-recommendations.pdf

The Chair's remarks are available here accompanied by a slideshow presentation https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/slides.pdf and script https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/script.pdf .

Some infographics related to Gender Equality

Gender Equality https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/gender-equality.pdf
Childcare https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/childcare.pdf
Care https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/what-we-do/meetings/voting-results-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality/care.pdf

iptba

mr.anonymous wrote: »

Irish Times today reporting that Citizen's Assembly votes to delete the constitutional clause on woman's place in the home.

"The 99 members of the assembly on gender equality voted for a radical programme of reform which could see gender quotas in all elections and across public and private bodies, extra supports for carers and a new clause in the constitution recognising all forms of families in the Constitution, not only families based on marriage.

Assembly chair Dr Catherine Day said the citizens had not called for “incremental change” but for “big changes that can make Ireland a better and more gender equal place to live for all of us.”

That particular clause seems archaic. I'm not against its removal. The next part of the article:

"The citizens recommended that by the end of 2022 gender quotas should be extended for party candidates to local, Seanad and European elections...

Similarly, gender quota legislation should require private companies to have at least 40 per cent gender balance on their boards."

How can removing such a clause have the consequence of introducing strict gender quotas? How would this be achievable for make up of the Oireachtas and boards of companies? Why not elect and appoint on the basis of competence and suitability?

I hope there will be politicians and business representative bodies speaking out on this.

Well, no one speaks out in this article anyway:

Citizens’ Assembly votes to delete and replace Constitution’s ‘women in home’ clause
Radical changes would include gender quotas and extra pay for carers

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/citizens-assembly-votes-to-delete-and-replace-constitution-s-women-in-home-clause-1.4546882

iptba

Citizens’ Assembly calls for “sexist and outdated” language to be removed from Constitution

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/citizens-assembly-calls-for-sexist-and-outdated-language-to-be-removed-from-constitution-40350870.html

Only outside comments on this on a quick skim seemed to be from the National Women's Council of Ireland.

iptba

Citizens' Assembly recommends 'women in home' clause be removed from constitution
The National Women’s Council welcomed the recommendation that the ‘sexist’ clause be removed.

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizens-assembly-delete-woman-place-in-home-clause-5419048-Apr2021
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I can't remember whether it was comments I read under this article or on Twitter (searching for "citizens' assembly") but people made the point that the people who voted were likely presented with a biased/unbalanced view of the evidence/issues.

iptba

RTE TV clip says the assembly "covered all aspects of gender equality."
https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1386020044363157506
As far as I can see, it basically only looked at gender equality in terms of helping women.

iptba

(Pay-walled)

Catherine Day: Importance of care key Citizens’ Assembly theme
Assembly was concerned about carers’ low remuneration, lack of sick pay and pensions
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 00:44

Catherine Day
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/catherine-day-importance-of-care-key-citizens-assembly-theme-1.4547104

She largely reports the recommendations and praises the process.

Here are some comments underneath that will disappear in a few days.

--

"It should surprise no one that 99 randomly chosen citizens should come up with a set of largely sensible policy proposals that would be beyond the wit of the shower of chancers, rogues and gob****es - with a handful of genuinely public interest representatives thrown in - that succeed in being elected to the Dáil"
[commenter, not from article]

Ah yes, the participants just come up with these ideas entirely by themselves, right? They don't have a pre-approved, NGO shopping list presented to them as the "obvious" choice and there is no element of groupthink among the participants in following said NGO backed policies?

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I wonder how many of the Assembly members pay income tax? It wouldn't be right for those who don't pay income tax to be suggesting that others should fund their grand ideas. Only around half of Irish adults pay income tax.....if income tax is used to fund the recommendations the burden of paying for them won't be evenly distributed amongst the population. A fairer way would be to increase consumption taxes. I also wonder if they looked at the construction, fishing, transport security, and emergency services sectors before calling for more gender balance.....it is not right that the burden of doing dangerous jobs falls on men in the same way that it's not right the burden of caring falls on women.

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There is a lot we can do right away to bring about proper gender balance. We should insist that all new State funded child care facilities and social housing building projects have 50:50 staffing levels.....this might slow down delivery but the sacrifice will be worth in the long term. We should insist that all male teachers and nurses be hired before resorting to female hires to complete staffing requirements.....this would reduce the gender imbalances in our schools and healthcare facilities. Achieving gender balance in our schools is very important as this is where our children are moulded for life. What we need are more practical solutions and less ideological aspirations.

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"They meet to reflect and debate topics agreed by the Oireachtas, informed by expert presentations, evidence and different perspectives."I would hope that some day people would see these 'citizen's assemblies' as an awful period in Irish history where people are made to feel important by 'experts' and difficult political decisions deflected to the hapless participant as representative of a gullible society. It is really weaponised advocacy politics under a different name and as democratic as the old commie politics or equivalent subcultures .

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Was Jordan Peterson invited to address the Citizen's Assembly on Gender Equality? Or Christina Hoff Sommers, for that matter? Were gender-critical feminists invited? Or just people who would willingly participate in an initiative to guarantee a pre-determined outcome?

iptba

Citizens’ Assembly a handy mudguard to shield our leaders from the difficulties of big decisions
Ian O'Doherty

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/citizens-assembly-a-handy-mudguard-to-shield-our-leaders-from-the-difficulties-of-big-decisions-40359637.html

Despite their apparent zeal to remove gender discrimination (again, a noble idea), they also urge the Government to introduce strict gender quotas for local, national and Seanad elections. That’s a controversial idea, which has already caused headaches for the main parties as they removed various long-standing councillors for the local ticket, only to replace them with gender-based nominees.

Equally deluded, they want to erase the so-called gender pay gap. But, as has been repeatedly pointed out by calmer heads – and promptly ignored because it doesn’t fit the narrative – the so-called ‘gender pay gap’ is a chimera. It simply doesn’t exist. Yes, there is a pay differential and yes, men tend to earn more than women. But that’s down to career choices, not sex. Paying someone less because of their gender is already illegal. If there really was an established gender pay gap where women are automatically paid less then their male peers, then businesses would only ever hire women because it would apparently be so much cheaper for them.

jimmycrackcorm

iptba wrote: »

(Pay-walled)

Catherine Day
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/catherine-day-importance-of-care-key-citizens-assembly-theme-1.4547104
Was Jordan Peterson invited to address the Citizen's Assembly on Gender Equality? Or Christina Hoff Sommers, for that matter? Were gender-critical feminists invited? Or just people who would willingly participate in an initiative to guarantee a pre-determined outcome?

Jordan Peterson is absoultely fantastic at putting forward the argument.
This interview should have been mandatory watching for the citizen's assembly.

ThunbergsAreGo

iptba wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/citizens-assembly-calls-for-sexist-and-outdated-language-to-be-removed-from-constitution-40350870.html

Only outside comments on this on a quick skim seemed to be from the National Women's Council of Ireland.

The National Womens Council of Ireland with an 100% female board?

I wonder if the recommendations on gender balance will apply to them....

RobertKK

I guess women will be looking for equal representation down the sewers and mines now...

greenspurs

iptba wrote: »

RTE TV clip says the assembly "covered all aspects of gender equality."
https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1386020044363157506
As far as I can see, it basically only looked at gender equality in terms of helping women.

Where is gender equality needed for helping men?

iptba

greenspurs wrote: »

Where is gender equality needed for helping men?

Here's a list of some issues

http://empathygap.uk/
Men and Boys’ Issues in Brief

A very brief bullet point list of men and boys’ issues follows. For a slight amplification of what these issues entail – but still in brief – read the Introduction to the Disadvantages faced by Men and Boys http://empathygap.uk/?page_id=22 .

Educational disadvantage of boys, from aged 5 to university.

Lack of recognition of, or assistance for, male victims of partner abuse.

Men’s shorter life expectancy.

Substantially less research funding on men-only diseases compared with women-only diseases.

Averaged over the last five years, the male suicide rate in England was 3.3 times that of females (in Wales, 4.3 times), suicide being the commonest cause of death in males under 45.

Men have virtually no paternity rights.

Paternity fraud is rife, is extremely damaging to men and children, but society regards it as just fine.

Fathers are greatly disadvantaged in child contact arrangements after partner separation.

False allegations are commonly used as a tactic against men in the family courts.

At any point in time, one in four fathers do not live with their children (under 16), most often against their wishes.

Only about 50% of fathers will live with their dependent children continuously to their 16th birthday.

The bar is being ever lowered on what is regarded as sexual assault by males on females, whilst the penalties are becoming more severe. The result is that women have the power to destroy a man for minor offences or issues of perception.

In contrast, sexual assault of males (of all ages) by females remains largely unrecognised by society and the criminal justice system alike.

Grossly inequitable treatment of men and women in the criminal justice system. Three out of every four men in prison would not be there if they were treated like women.

Whilst we hear a great deal about the “pay gap”, the power must surely reside with who spends the money. Women certainly spend at least as much money as men, whoever earns it.
For full time workers under 40 years old the gender pay-rate gap is negligible.
For part time workers the gender pay-rate gap is in favour of women (about 5%).

Men work 609 million hours per week at paid work compared to women’s 394 million hours. Men also work for more continuous years over life. Hence, men work more and are home less – this is contribution, not privilege.

We hear a great deal about men not pulling their weight as regards domestic and childcare chores, but studies show that totalling all work, men and women work about the same number of hours.

Men are 96% of workplace fatalities, and are far more likely to suffer injuries at work or to get work related diseases than women.

Women seek “equality” with men only in desirable occupations (consultants, professors, Board members, MPs, etc) not in the jobs that 99% of men do – the nasty, dirty, dangerous jobs that lead to the above fatalities.

Men (or boys) are more likely to be the victims of violence than women (or girls) – despite the constant exhortations that we should “end violence against women”.

Around 90% of homeless rough sleepers are men.

99% of war deaths and casualties are men.

Female genital mutilation is illegal and universally reviled. Male genital mutilation is regarded as perfectly acceptable and without disbenefit to the man (it isn’t). Half a million African boys killed or maimed in the last eight years by botched circumcisions goes unnoticed.

Female suffering is newsworthy, male suffering is not (e.g., Boko Haram – how many people know that their main activity is killing boys?).

There is a lack of action on under-representation of men in certain professions, contrasting with the huge focus on assisting women into areas where they are under-represented (e.g., STEM, though women now dominate in STEMM).

Male-only organisations have systematically been obliged to accept females, whilst the reverse is not true.

History is being systematically misrepresented as gendered oppression, rather than the oppression of the many, of both sexes, by the few, of both sexes.
Both sexes had to fight for the vote; both sexes had to fight to be educated.

For a little more detail on these issues read the Introduction to the Disadvantages faced by Men and Boys http://empathygap.uk/?page_id=22 .

iptba

Oireachtas

Referendum on women’s place in home should be held next year, Oireachtas report says

Gender Equality committee recommends referendum on replacing wording in the Constitution

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/oireachtas/2022/07/13/referendum-on-womens-place-in-the-home-should-be-held-next-year-oireachtas-report-says

The article discusses the joint Oireachtas committee on gender equality deliberations on other aspects of the recommendations from the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality.

iptba

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/07/28/time-needed-for-proper-gender-equality-information-campaign-adds-to-doubts-over-november-referendum-date

That timescale adds to doubts over the Government’s intended November date for the people to vote on the issues of gender equality, the definition of “family” and the “place of women in the home”.

The plans for either an omnibus vote on all of the issues, or potentially three referendums, were announced in March in what Taoiseach Leo Varadkar described then as a “tight timeline”.

Will be interesting to see the wording chosen.

iptba

Groups write to Varadkar seeking ‘urgent clarification’ on gender equality referendum wording

Delay to publication of publishing wording casts doubt on plan to hold vote in November

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/08/24/groups-write-to-varadkar-seeking-urgent-clarification-on-gender-equality-referendum-wording/

Article doesn’t give any information on what the wording might be.

Publication of the wording of the referendums was scheduled for June last. However, the wording has not yet been published.

iptba

The Minister for Children Roderic O'Gorman has said a proposed referendum to replace the constitutional reference to women's duties in the home will not take place this year.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2023/0924/1407051-women-home-referendum

Alexander Shulgin

O Gormless should address issues like femicide & poverty , and you don't need some assembly to tell you what's glaringly obvious ! I'd also make fathers financially responsible for their children , garnish salaries etc

iptba

Article doesn’t give details on the wordings.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/09/27/two-referendums-needed-to-replace-constitutional-provision-on-women-in-home/

Two referendums needed to replace Constitutional provision on women in home

Government’s legislative programme for autumn proposes number of major Bills

iptba

Referendums on women in the home and the concept of the family to be held next March

Cabinet has approved plans for referendums to amend the Constitution

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/12/05/referendums-on-women-in-the-home-and-the-concept-of-the-family-to-be-held-next-march

iptba

Lack of buy-in may be biggest challenge for referendums

Updated / Sunday, 10 Dec 2023 10:59

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1210/1421127-referendums-analysis

This article makes clear what specific changes to the constitution are being proposed.