Clare GAA Discussion - 2024 All Ireland Hurling Champions

Clareman

Marty Xavier wrote: »

I think the narrative that a club went off and bettered their lot with regards facilities and pitches and somehow indirectly impacted their ability to compete is way off the mark.
St Jospeh's outgrew Roslevan a long time before they moved. Some of the training sessions had to be done in the Fair green and besides Hassett's pub in barefield in the 90s as the pitch wasn't available.
There were no gym facilities at all.
Now there are 3 good pitches and a hall and gym, go up there nay summer evening or weekend morning and see the amount of kids playing.
Barefield will come again.

Barefield's facilities are second to none, they are able to cater for hurling/football/ladies football/camoige on the outside pitches, they have a full size astroturf pitch and they have a hall can be set up for basketball, indoor soccer, dance classes etc.. Gurteen is an amazing facility and something the whole county should be proud of not on Barefield people.

But if you want to see an example of how Barefield can take the eye off what should be the proper priorities look at their facebook page where they are promoting a Last Man Standing competition for the Premier League, not the club lotto, not results, not news, just a promotion based on the Premier League, don't get me wrong I'm far from a "no to foreign games" kind of guy and I've no problem with a club having that kind of promotion as a money spinner (I'm doing well in the Eire Og prediction league ) but does that need to be the pinned post at the end of the club season?

Clareman

BloodyBill wrote: »

They lost their foothold in the urban area. They should have kept roslevan. I loved playing there. They could have kept both. Their new pitched are as exposed as the Clare grounds in Tulla on bad land.

Roslevan was brilliant, The Grove in the car park, loads of people around, it's no coincident that the O'Connor/Baker/Hoey Brother's were all within walking distance of the place, BUT as you said it got too popular, it went from being a hurling/camoige pitch with some neutral games being played there to being a hurling/camogie/football/ladies football pitch with some neutral games being played there, that couldn't last, if the senior team needed to do some additional training and couldn't get on because there was an under 16 C championship game scheduled of course there'd be hassle.

Clareman

Personally I think big clubs should have 2 grounds, 1 training/juvenile and 1 main ground, those don't have to be in the same place, why not team up with a school and have a juvenile/training pitch near there? there won't be anyone in the school in the summer and the school can use it in the winter. Barefield, Kilmaley, Clarecastle all have amazing facilities within 10 minutes of Ennis, are all those facilities needed/used the whole time?

Clareman

BloodyBill wrote: »

They lost their foothold in the urban area. They should have kept roslevan. I loved playing there. They could have kept both. Their new pitched are as exposed as the Clare grounds in Tulla on bad land.

Marty Xavier wrote: »

St Jospeh's outgrew Roslevan a long time before they moved. Some of the training sessions had to be done in the Fair green and besides Hassett's pub in barefield in the 90s as the pitch wasn't available.
There were no gym facilities at all.
Now there are 3 good pitches and a hall and gym, go up there nay summer evening or weekend morning and see the amount of kids playing.
Barefield will come again.

Clareman wrote: »

instead of concentrating on building for the future they concentrated on building

Sorry for jumping all over this but it's something that really grinds my gears and happens to nearly every club. Because of "some" training sessions having to be moved to non-perfect locations and a club not having a gym all of a sudden millions need to be spent? The Fair Green/Lees Road type facilities should be used for everyone, not as slight. Gyms, well they are a business ,if a GAA team think that a team needs a gym session, well them pay for a gym session, don't ****ing build a gym that'll be empty 99% of the time.

square ball

Clareman wrote: »

Sorry for jumping all over this but it's something that really grinds my gears and happens to nearly every club. Because of "some" training sessions having to be moved to non-perfect locations and a club not having a gym all of a sudden millions need to be spent? The Fair Green/Lees Road type facilities should be used for everyone, not as slight. Gyms, well they are a business ,if a GAA team think that a team needs a gym session, well them pay for a gym session, don't ****ing build a gym that'll be empty 99% of the time.

In fairness Rosleven was no longer fit for purpose. They have everything they need in Gurteen. It would be a perfect facility if it wasn't so remote but they had no choice to go out there.

Plenty rural clubs can thrive with GAA pitches in the middle of nowhere. They are playing A hurling and football in pretty much every age with a strong second team too so it's not as if they are struggling since they went out.

They are doing well up to minor but aren't tough or physical enough at adult level. Have all the talent in the world but lack the bit of aggression and determination when things aren't going well I think.

They will come again and have the potential to take over Clare GAA if they sort themselves out.

Clareman

square ball wrote: »

In fairness Rosleven was no longer fit for purpose. They have everything they need in Gurteen. It would be a perfect facility if it wasn't so remote but they had no choice to go out there.

Plenty rural clubs can thrive with GAA pitches in the middle of nowhere. They are playing A hurling and football in pretty much every age with a strong second team too so it's not as if they are struggling since they went out.

They are doing well up to minor but aren't tough or physical enough at adult level. Have all the talent in the world but lack the bit of aggression and determination when things aren't going well I think.

They will come again and have the potential to take over Clare GAA if they sort themselves out.

I would almost say that remote is good now.

I had to drive through town today between around 2 and 4.30....... deleted quite the rant there that I might post in the Clare forum.

Underage children don't make their own way to training anymore regardless of where the training is on, "back in the day" lads had to cycle to training cause if they didn't they weren't going, 5 or 6 lads would head off for a 30 minute cycle, do training and head home. The town teams were always the "soft" teams, you'd just run away from them and get space it was easy but if they got the ball then you'd never get it off them. Now every team is the town team.

New Era

Well it has been a roller coaster of a ride but I'm delighted to return to boards.ie as we enter a crucial time in the worlds of politics, covid and Clare Gaa, my main passion. You may remember me as banner fights back but I sadly had to close my last boards.ie account as my mother was in her final stages of motor neurone disease and she needed all the help and the commitment that went with caring for my Mam. She died on the 14th of August.

We were incredibly close and we had such an outstanding relationship, so the last few months have been unbelievably challenging and difficult.

I'm looking forward to discussing all things Clare Gaa, hurling and football and here's hoping that all our inter-county teams that will take part in their respective provincial championships in the coming months will do the county proud indeed and hopefully some silverware will return to the Banner county in the coming months ahead.

Tonight the Clare minor A hurling championship semi-finals are taking place and its half-time in both matches.

Corofin-Ruan 2-13 Inagh-Kilnamona 0-7
Clooney-Quin 0-10 Feakle-Killanena 0-10

The standard is very high in Clare underage hurling these days and in the first match at Clarecastle, Shane Punch and Diarmuid Cahill are running the show for the defending Clare minor A hurling champions. A damning indictment on the previous Clare minor hurling manager Fergal Lynch that gave Punch, one of our outstanding talents for Clare hurling into the future, such little game time for the minors last year in the Munster and All-Ireland campaigns.

However the future of Clare hurling is in great hands. Lots of great work been done at club and inter-county development squad level as evident with Clare's 2018 All-Ireland Under-15 success. Great to see.

New Era

Full Time in both Clare minor A hurling semi-finals

Corofin-Ruan 3-23 Inagh-Kilnamona 1-16
Feakle-Killanena 1-16 Clooney-Quin 1-15, The East Clare combo with a sensational last puck of the game winning point!!

But Corofin-Ruan look incredibly impresssive. Shane Punch, Diarmuid Cahill in attack and Jack Lyons and Cillian McGroary in defense were outstanding for Corofin-Ruan, who are 60 minutes away from claiming back to back Minor A hurling championships in Clare. They will be very hot favorites against a Feakle-Killanena side, that will be looking for Oisin Clune to lead the charge and who is part of the Clare minor hurling team in 2019 and is underage for inter-county minor grade, ahead of the commencement of next months Munster minor hurling championship campaign, when we play Cork on the 17th of October at a Cork venue in the quarter-final.

New Era

New Era wrote: »

Full Time in both Clare minor A hurling semi-finals

Corofin-Ruan 3-23 Inagh-Kilnamona 1-16
Feakle-Killanena 1-16 Clooney-Quin 1-15, The East Clare combo with a sensational last puck of the game winning point!!

But Corofin-Ruan look incredibly impresssive. Shane Punch, Diarmuid Cahill in attack and Jack Lyons and Cillian McGroary in defense were outstanding for Corofin-Ruan, who are 60 minutes away from claiming back to back Minor A hurling championships in Clare. They will be very hot favorites against a Feakle-Killanena side, that will be looking for Oisin Clune to lead the charge and who is part of the Clare minor hurling team in 2019 and is underage for inter-county minor grade, ahead of the commencement of next months Munster minor hurling championship campaign, when we play Cork on the 17th of October at a Cork venue in the quarter-final.

I should not forget Adam Hogan (Feakle-Killanena) who also was part of the Clare minor hurling panel in 2019 and will start at full back for the Clare minors this year also. Another brilliant prospect.

New Era

Apologies about my excessive posting this evening (the reason is that I cannot edit my posts) but the Minor B Hurling semi-finals were also played this evening.

Tulla 4-16 The Banner 1-10
O Callaghans Mills/Bodyke 0-15 Ballyea 0-12

The minor C semi-finals will be played tomorrow evening with Corofin/Ruan's second team taking on their Doora-Barefield seconds counterparts and in the other semi-final its Ennistymon v Smith O'Briens.

So from a Clare minor hurlers point of view, at least 6 of our likely starters against Cork in the opening round of the Munster minor hurling championship next month will be in action for the Minor A Final. For Corofin-Ruan, Killian O'Connor and Cillian McGroary who is also vice-captain of the Clare minor footballers and another dual player Marc O'Loughlin. While for Feakle-Killanena Keith Smyth, Adam Hogan and Oisin Clune, will also play a big role for both club and county.

Corofin are playing in the semi-final of the Clare minor A football championship semi-final in the coming week or so, what an amazing club, they are excelling in both codes, treating both codes as equal and just rewards for their recent outstanding work at underage, in promoting hurling and football. A credit and a fine example to clubs throughout the county for sure. Fair dues to them.

4Ad

New Era wrote: »

Well it has been a roller coaster of a ride but I'm delighted to return to boards.ie as we enter a crucial time in the worlds of politics, covid and Clare Gaa, my main passion. You may remember me as banner fights back but I sadly had to close my last boards.ie account as my mother was in her final stages of motor neurone disease and she needed all the help and the commitment that went with caring for my Mam. She died on the 14th of August.

We were incredibly close and we had such an outstanding relationship, so the last few months have been unbelievably challenging and difficult.

I'm looking forward to discussing all things Clare Gaa, hurling and football and here's hoping that all our inter-county teams that will take part in their respective provincial championships in the coming months will do the county proud indeed and hopefully some silverware will return to the Banner county in the coming months ahead.

Tonight the Clare minor A hurling championship semi-finals are taking place and its half-time in both matches.

Corofin-Ruan 2-13 Inagh-Kilnamona 0-7
Clooney-Quin 0-10 Feakle-Killanena 0-10

The standard is very high in Clare underage hurling these days and in the first match at Clarecastle, Shane Punch and Diarmuid Cahill are running the show for the defending Clare minor A hurling champions. A damning indictment on the previous Clare minor hurling manager Fergal Lynch that gave Punch, one of our outstanding talents for Clare hurling into the future, such little game time for the minors last year in the Munster and All-Ireland campaigns.

However the future of Clare hurling is in great hands. Lots of great work been done at club and inter-county development squad level as evident with Clare's 2018 All-Ireland Under-15 success. Great to see.

Sorry to hear about your Mam,(RIP) Awful illness.. death isnever easy...but life goes own..just not the same !

BloodyBill

These amalgamations are gone beyond a joke at this stage. By all means go and have regional groups or divisions like in Kerry and Cork but let the clubs keep their own minor teams aswell. Corofin, Ruan and maybe Tubber next year. Parteen,Meelick,Smith o Briens and Clonlara the year after. Get a proper divisional/ regional competition going but stop this amalgamation rubbish. Its going to kill small clubs in the long run.

BloodyBill

These amalgamations are gone beyond a joke at this stage. By all means go and have regional groups or divisions like in Kerry and Cork but let the clubs keep their own minor teams aswell. Corofin, Ruan and maybe Tubber next year. Parteen,Meelick,Smith o Briens and Clonlara the year after. Get a proper divisional/ regional competition going but stop this amalgamation rubbish. Its going to kill small clubs in the long run.

New Era

BloodyBill wrote: »

These amalgamations are gone beyond a joke at this stage. By all means go and have regional groups or divisions like in Kerry and Cork but let the clubs keep their own minor teams aswell. Corofin, Ruan and maybe Tubber next year. Parteen,Meelick,Smith o Briens and Clonlara the year after. Get a proper divisional/ regional competition going but stop this amalgamation rubbish. Its going to kill small clubs in the long run.

It's absolutely ridiculous that Corofin need the assistance of Ruan at underage level at this present time. Corofin are more than able to field a team themselves without any assistance. As for Ruan I know some may not like this but they should field a team in the c grade. What's more ridiculous about this is their seconds are currently playing in the c grade minor hurling semi final this evening. With the success of this combination in recent times, it's my belief that Ruan and Corofin should field separate teams at minor and u21 grade full stop.

Now perhaps this golden generation that Corofin and to a lesser extent Ruan have produced and they have some of the most talented young players in the country at present may dry up. But for now the focus should be how to ensure a level playing field to ensure that clubs are not cheating the system and are only amalgamating to win trophies. And that gets into my next issue. I believe that developing young players and putting no untoward pressure on them to deliver silverware is what I would like to think is happening across clubs at underage level. But there are some exceptions though and that "win at all costs" mentality to deliver trophies whatever the age grade is of grave concern. Young lads have enough to be dealing without any undue burden of winning trophies.

All clubs should have the motto of whatever you do at all underage grades is a bonus, forget about winning trophies your main goal is to learn all the skills and training you have learned through the relevant coaches throughout your underage career and focus on getting better with the goal being of representing your club and county at senior or adult level is of more relevance imo.

For that reason I believe that any player under the age of 20 should not play at senior grade at club and inter county level. Anyone who is underage for minor at club level should also not play at u21 grade until they turn 18. I look at Diarmuid Cahill, just 18 and yet he is playing for the Corofin intermediates at both codes, in addition of playing in minor level at club level at both codes also. Serious pressure on one so young, I have huge sympathy for him for a player who is an outstanding talent but from burnout to this pressure of playing adult grade for a player like Diarmuid, I find that quite uncomfortable to be honest.

That's just my opinion on some of the issues that bloody Bill has addressed and the issues regarding what's expected of young players. Both big issues and while some might call me out on my comments above, I think both issues should be of concern with talented young dual players who I think are unfairly burdened with excessive burdens and pressures of playing both codes from minor, u-21 and senior level a particular issue that needs to be addressed and I don't think that our county board is doing nowhere near enough to help dual club players who are under 20.

windy shepard henderson

stats leading up to both hurling and football semi finals this weekend credit to the Clare Echo lads for compiling them over the championship

New Era

Clare senior hurling championship semi final

Eire Og 1-10 Sixmilebridge 0-13. 1-8 of the townies total came from Danny Russell in the first half. He also had a penalty saved also. Midway thru the second half.

In the opening Clare senior football championship semi final it finished

Kilmurry Ibrickane 1-18 Lissycasey 3-11.

1-5 from Keelan Sexton for the winners, who were 6 points in front with 5 mins left but had to withstand a late comeback from Lissycasey.

Sixmilebridge man Cyl O Connor and Wexford senior hurling selector Brendan Bulger are the commentators on Clare fm for the hurling. A bit biased towards smb I feel.

New Era

The bridge 0-17 Eire og 1-13 FT

The referee was an 16th man for the bridge today sadly. It was nauseating to see the bridge get so much soft frees. No doubt that Eire og found it considerably more harder to win frees.

An example of this bridge biased ref was at the very end where Eire og won a late free but the ref blew the full time whistle without the free been taken.

On a separate note Brendan Bugler commentary today was an absolute disgrace. I have very little time for him, probably because of his closeness to DF, but he just could not stop indulging in the current Wexford senior hurling manager and the bridge, who are a bang average team play puke hurling, but Bugs couldn't see that!

golfball37

It’s sickening what happened there today. The fawning over a certain family and unwillingness to offend is disturbing. Eire Og were robbed today.

New Era

golfball37 wrote: »

It’s sickening what happened there today. The fawning over a certain family and unwillingness to offend is disturbing. Eire Og were robbed today.

The quicker that family you mention have no more to do with Clare GAA, and in particular a certain daddy, will be a day to celebrate no doubt about that. I'm sick to death 're the control they have over Clare hurling.

I won't go over it again in detail but some of the antics 're the appointment of the Clare senior hurling and minor manager last year will let you know the type of characters that are running the county board.

That is just one of many episodes that have characterised this family dynasty and not in a nice way for sure. Heartbroken over Eire Og tonight though.

New Era

I have been thinking about the ref issues in today's match. To me Rory Hickey and the shoddy treatment that he endured that led to the Eire Og clubman quitting the "man in this middle" job is just prime example of how the county board treat gaa refs in the county. Hickey is a very affable lad and it just shows what the CB think of refs, when a man like Hickey, who is a very competent ref and does a lot of charity work, could be treated with such distaste and contempt by his "bosses".

Of course there has been some speculation, that a certain encounter with you know who, brought the premature end to Rorys refereeing career. But to his immense credit and shows the type of man he is, he never cried wolf to the media. Classy as always is Rory Hickey.

If a man like Rory was treated like that, what hope is there for other refs in the county. It makes the job of volunteering and becoming a ref that more challenging indeed. So for those reasons alone I can see a continued decline in the number of gaa refs in the county. That is the legacy of this current county board administration. Of course accountability for those responsible for this malaise in Clare gaa referees, is just a distant dream.

LuckyGent88

Obviously I’m biased but it’s nice to read that I wasn’t the only one thinking that the Bridge were getting some very soft frees.

Bitterly disappointed to lose to that crowd again. Awful dour tactics from the Bridge as per usual and thought we worked it very well in the first half.

Had the chance with the penalty and a few other point opportunities to have a bigger lead and ultimately I think that was key when the wind got stronger in the second half.

We were poor in our decision making in the second half and just didn’t have the ability to shoot from a bit further out where the only space was. Thought we should should have had a number of frees in the last 10 minutes which we needed as scores were hard to come by.

Ultimately I can see Ballyea beating the bridge. They have no goal threat and Ballyea have the better all round group of forwards than eire og have

BloodyBill

New Era wrote: »

The bridge 0-17 Eire og 1-13 FT

The referee was an 16th man for the bridge today sadly. It was nauseating to see the bridge get so much soft frees. No doubt that Eire og found it considerably more harder to win frees.

An example of this bridge biased ref was at the very end where Eire og won a late free but the ref blew the full time whistle without the free been taken.

On a separate note Brendan Bugler commentary today was an absolute disgrace. I have very little time for him, probably because of his closeness to DF, but he just could not stop indulging in the current Wexford senior hurling manager and the bridge, who are a bang average team play puke hurling, but Bugs couldn't see that!

Whatever about the style of play of Sixmilebridge its a bad sign when Eire Og have 2 scorers from play. When the game was there to be won the Bridge won it and thats about it. Blame the ref, Bugler ,puke hurling (im not a fan of our style of play)but the cold hard facts are that Eire Og came up short when the heat came on,again.

BloodyBill

golfball37 wrote: »

It’s sickening what happened there today. The fawning over a certain family and unwillingness to offend is disturbing. Eire Og were robbed today.

Eire Og weren't robbed?! . They got what they deserved. They couldn't score in the second half and missed a penalty. How many chances do they expect to get in a game?
Bridge got soft frees...so what, Champions get easy frees. Thats not where Eire Og lost.
The Bridge are a competent side and nobody in Sixmilebridge says any more about them. They arent a patch on some of the great bridge sides of the 80s and 90s. They got tanked by Ballygunnar last year and are limited but dont expect them to roll over to a naive Ennis side in a County Semi. Ballyea should be favourites for the final but don't be surprised to see the Bridge turn up again and win.

New Era

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Obviously I’m biased but it’s nice to read that I wasn’t the only one thinking that the Bridge were getting some very soft frees.

Bitterly disappointed to lose to that crowd again. Awful dour tactics from the Bridge as per usual and thought we worked it very well in the first half.

Had the chance with the penalty and a few other point opportunities to have a bigger lead and ultimately I think that was key when the wind got stronger in the second half.

We were poor in our decision making in the second half and just didn’t have the ability to shoot from a bit further out where the only space was. Thought we should should have had a number of frees in the last 10 minutes which we needed as scores were hard to come by.

Ultimately I can see Ballyea beating the bridge. They have no goal threat and Ballyea have the better all round group of forwards than eire og have

LuckyGent88, my heart goes out to you and every Eire Og supporter tonight. I feel so bad that a poor ref costed the townies place in a county final, the first for 20 years. Unfortunately it will be these forums and social media and not the local media, that will highlight how the bridge get the benefit of the doubt in those 50/50 calls, more often than not, that has been the case for years now, and Eire Og won't be the last and are certainly not the first to feel to wrath of dubious refeering performances, when the Bridge are the opponents.

You are absolutely spot on about the Bridges style of hurling. It's puke and horrible to watch like crowding the middle third, one man full forward line and of course the sweeper system. If DF returns to manage Clare again and it will happen, I would absolutely go mental and I'll probably have more enjoyment in seeing tiddliwinks then watching tripe like that.

I have a good friend from the Mills and he won't like me saying this but I hope that Ballyea win tomorrow, because they are the best team equipped to cause the bridge problems with their mix of youth and experience their running, skillset and of course Tony Kelly is worth of couple of points to any team. In short anything that would stop the bridge getting their hands on Canon Hamilton again in 2 weeks time, would satisfy me.

golfball37

I think the Mills will win tomorrow

Figerty

golfball37 wrote: »

I think the Mills will win tomorrow

Mills will be very close if Brennan is out, then Ballyea will struggle to maintain the momentum during the full game.

BloodyBill

New Era wrote: »

LuckyGent88, my heart goes out to you and every Eire Og supporter tonight. I feel so bad that a poor ref costed the townies place in a county final, the first for 20 years. Unfortunately it will be these forums and social media and not the local media, that will highlight how the bridge get the benefit of the doubt in those 50/50 calls, more often than not, that has been the case for years now, and Eire Og won't be the last and are certainly not the first to feel to wrath of dubious refeering performances, when the Bridge are the opponents.

You are absolutely spot on about the Bridges style of hurling. It's puke and horrible to watch like crowding the middle third, one man full forward line and of course the sweeper system. If DF returns to manage Clare again and it will happen, I would absolutely go mental and I'll probably have more enjoyment in seeing tiddliwinks then watching tripe like that.

I have a good friend from the Mills and he won't like me saying this but I hope that Ballyea win tomorrow, because they are the best team equipped to cause the bridge problems with their mix of youth and experience their running, skillset and of course Tony Kelly is worth of couple of points to any team. In short anything that would stop the bridge getting their hands on Canon Hamilton again in 2 weeks time, would satisfy me.

Youre a sore loser and nothing more. How many of your forwards scored? 2.. How many years have Eire Og being making Excuses? 30 years and counting.
The Bridges style at the moment isn't great. Id prefer a more expansive game but we lack pace and have to crowd out the middle. Im not going to criticise Eire og again. They have some lovely hurlers and the Bridge always wish the best to other Clare teams when winning or losing. We suffered under the heavy yoke of obnoxious Newmarket teams for years. We vowed to never act the same.The problem people have with the county board or Davy are legitimate problems though bring them up after getting beat...well thats a sore loser right there.

Figerty

BloodyBill wrote: »

Youre a sore loser and nothing more. How many of your forwards scored? 2.. How many years have Eire Og being making Excuses? 30 years and counting.
The Bridges style at the moment isn't great. Id prefer a more expansive game but we lack pace and have to crowd out the middle. Im not going to criticise Eire og again. They have some lovely hurlers and the Bridge always wish the best to other Clare teams when winning or losing. We suffered under the heavy yoke of obnoxious Newmarket teams for years. We vowed to never act the same.The problem people have with the county board or Davy are legitimate problems though bring them up after getting beat...well thats a sore loser right there.

You must be joking..
"They have some lovely hurlers and the Bridge always wish the best to other Clare teams when winning or losing. We suffered under the heavy yoke of obnoxious Newmarket teams for years. We vowed to never act the same"

windy shepard henderson

Figerty wrote: »

You must be joking..
"They have some lovely hurlers and the Bridge always wish the best to other Clare teams when winning or losing. We suffered under the heavy yoke of obnoxious Newmarket teams for years. We vowed to never act the same"

in fairness their is a lot of truth in it , you will meet a hell of a lot worse then sixmilebridge people win lose or draw , they go about themselves in a very amicable way like most clubs i know but often with success comes arrogance , one thing i could never accuse them off

in fairness you have two passionate townies vs one of the most out spoken hurling posters on boards .ie it was always going to end bad :pac:

Billy Ocean

From the outside looking in there can be alot of bitterness on this thread