Renault Zoe heavy refresh nearly here.

liamog

That's it, realistically we're not going to see a Model 3 competitor until Audi release an electric A3 and BMW release a full EV 3 Series.

The Zoe will have some keen competition in 2020 when the e-208 and Corsa-e are released.
Here's a good comparison.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/368200/renault-zoe-peugeot-e208-opel-corsa-e/

Seems to me the main decision point will be the choice between 100kW CCS or 22kW AC.

adunis

Quote:
Originally Posted by adunis View Post
The clear winner ID3 1st if it is actually 35k delivered
Finally a M3 competitor.......
~€35 VS €49 They are not in the same class at al

Yes competition

I'm looking at the overall bang for buck element only
It's more than obvious they are a completely different kettle of fish

liamog

Not entirely sure what comparing an ID.3 and the Model 3 have to do with purchasing a supermini.
Let's stick to the topic.

adunis

Ehh we are,I'm holding each car up for their respective merits,in very simple terms
Basic new Zoë =good all other Zoe's bad
M3 capable standard setter telsa Cons and "cheap"
ID3 1st,the clear winner on most fronts if it actually is 35k

unkel

Zoe ZE50: 1000km in 14:35

Very poor result, and incredibly inefficient at 23kWh/100km

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdNkGC89AxQ

I love the looks of the Zoe, I would really love to love it as an EV, but it's beyond a struggle.

Mancomb Seepgood

Driving a Zoe ZE40 I'm afraid this doesn't look to be worth the upgrade,particularly from what I've seen of the Peugeot 208 electric.Just looks a little lazy from Renault,the bare minimum required.

charlieIRL

Just watching the 1000kms challenge. Not going to be too efficient driving it at 130kph!!

ewj1978

He'd have been better off reducing speed. Strange call to drive a ZOe at those speeds.

ELM327

Awful performance.

Regarding the speed, he usually drives the swedish section at those speeds anyway so it's a good comparison.
Can't believe its in rapidgate territory, timewise!

Mickeroo

At least it managed to beat the L62 and e-golf I suppose.

Edit: oh wait it was an L62 in hot weather it beat and was beaten by another L62 on a different day.

unkel

Mickeroo wrote: »

At least it managed to beat the L62 and e-golf I suppose.

Edit: oh wait it was an L62 in hot weather it beat and was beaten by another L62 on a different day.

Ha you had just edited while I was quoting this

Yes, even L62 in winter was quicker than this Zoe. L62 in summer must have suffered from terrible battery overheating. That's what you get Nissan, if you don't cool the battery at all, duh.

adunis

Again further proof that only the basic non fast charging Zoë at 27.5k makes sense all the rest of them don't.

unkel

adunis wrote: »

Again further proof that only the basic non fast charging Zoë at 27.5k makes sense all the rest of them don't.

It would make sense at 20k, preferably a good bit less

ELM327

adunis wrote: »

Again further proof that only the basic non fast charging Zoë at 27.5k makes sense all the rest of them don't.

Plenty of better cars out there at that money

charlieIRL

He spent a lot of time charging it too, it didn’t charge much faster then the eGolf.

With our work Zoe I’d be very confident of doing the 1000kms with 3 charges and driving at 110kph.

ELM327

charlieIRL wrote: »

He spent a lot of time charging it too, it didn’t charge much faster then the eGolf.

With our work Zoe I’d be very confident of doing the 1000kms with 3 charges and driving at 110kph.

Unless that's a Q motor ZE40 I would not be confident.
That means you'd have to get 250km from each charge, and renault themselves quote 54 mins 10-80% at 43kW

Old diesel

Storm in a teacup lads......

Will still be a perfectly usable car for most EV requirements.

Two things likely to happen......

1) Like L40 with rapidgate - people will buy them because they don't in fact need to do these long trips.

2) they won't sell and Renault will have to do something on the price to make it competitive.

Its arguably too dear but NOT because of its 1000 km performance.

It's because when you spec it up you aren't far off a much better eSoul - a bigger car with around 12 kwh extra battery size.

Would still be a decent chariot if Renault let you have CCS at 26 k.

But they don't....

Even if they offered it at 750 on top of 26 k that would be not bad.

Would we still be looking at 130 to 140 miles all year round on 100 percent.

That's good enough for most Zoe users.

beauf

He made that point. Its just a artificial Benchmark.

In reality if you having to do long journeys like that regularly you won't have an EV in the first place.

it is interesting though as it highlights things that would be as obvious over a short journey.

For example he pointed out the issue that charging speed has to improve.

charlieIRL

ELM327 wrote: »

Unless that's a Q motor ZE40 I would not be confident.
That means you'd have to get 250km from each charge, and renault themselves quote 54 mins 10-80% at 43kW

We’re getting over 300kms per charge out of it and yes it has the faster charger. Very efficient little yoke!

KCross

How many people actually do 1000km in a single sitting in this country.... i'd say miniscule numbers.

While the 1000km challenge is good "TV" its not nearly as useful as a 500km challenge would be. He should report the figures for 500km's. Did he ever post a table of that? That would be interesting.

charlieIRL

Good idea.
We need to get an Irish channel going and do Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Cork, Galway to Waterford etc trips

Mancomb Seepgood

ELM327 wrote: »

Unless that's a Q motor ZE40 I would not be confident.
That means you'd have to get 250km from each charge, and renault themselves quote 54 mins 10-80% at 43kW

I have a Q90 Zoe and in all honesty my experience hasn't matched Renault's claims.Im doing well if I can get 33-34kw and even then that's SOC and temperature dependent.I need to sort out an OBD reader and CanZE and get some actual figures on it.

It makes no huge difference to me as I don't need to charge too often.

ELM327

charlieIRL wrote: »

Good idea.
We need to get an Irish channel going and do Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Cork, Galway to Waterford etc trips

There's an IEVOA organised rally each year , Dublin to cork and back was the last 2 years

unkel

KCross wrote: »

How many people actually do 1000km in a single sitting in this country.... i'd say miniscule numbers.

While the 1000km challenge is good "TV" its not nearly as useful as a 500km challenge would be. He should report the figures for 500km's. Did he ever post a table of that? That would be interesting.

Agreed that 500km would be far more relevant on a small island like Ireland. In most other countries in the western world, a 1000km trip would be a regular occurrence for many people

We can't expect Nyland to have a special Ireland test though, can we?

adunis

Old diesel wrote: »

Storm in a teacup lads......

Will still be a perfectly usable car for most EV requirements.

Two things likely to happen......

1) Like L40 with rapidgate - people will buy them because they don't in fact need to do these long trips.

2) they won't sell and Renault will have to do something on the price to make it competitive.

Its arguably too dear but NOT because of its 1000 km performance.

It's because when you spec it up you aren't far off a much better eSoul - a bigger car with around 12 kwh extra battery size.

Would still be a decent chariot if Renault let you have CCS at 26 k.

But they don't....

Even if they offered it at 750 on top of 26 k that would be not bad.

Would we still be looking at 130 to 140 miles all year round on 100 percent.

That's good enough for most Zoe users.

Couldn't have said it better

unkel

I agree with all your arguments, Old diesel, but this alone sums the car up best:

Old diesel wrote: »

Its arguably too dear

It's just far too expensive. And if they can't sell it for €19-20k (after almost €10k in subsidies) without making a profit, take out that bloody 52kWh battery. Nobody needs that in a city car. Stick in a battery half the size, price it realistically and you have a winner

I'd rather have a MINI EV myself if I were in the market for a small hip city car...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Agreed that 500km would be far more relevant on a small island like Ireland. In most other countries in the western world, a 1000km trip would be a regular occurrence for many people

We can't expect Nyland to have a special Ireland test though, can we?

I think we can tbh. It might be a trip that some on the continent do for holidays etc but its not their everyday activity, so a 500km test would be just as relevant to them as the 1000km test.

Its trivial for him to do it. All he has to do is look at the stats at the 500km mark when doing the 1000km test and list that in a table. He probably could even do it retrospectively from the footage he has.

Maybe I should email him!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Maybe I should email him!

Maybe you should. Probably easier to convince him than it is me. Maybe. Good luck with that

beauf

unkel wrote: »

I agree with all your arguments, Old diesel, but this alone sums the car up best:



It's just far too expensive. And if they can't sell it for €19-20k (after almost €10k in subsidies) without making a profit, take out that bloody 52kWh battery. Nobody needs that in a city car. Stick in a battery half the size, price it realistically and you have a winner

I'd rather have a MINI EV myself if I were in the market for a small hip city car...

The mini seems a good price point but is it really a 4 seater?

ELM327

beauf wrote: »

The mini seems a good price point but is it really a 4 seater?

For two larger adults it's barely a 2 seater let alone 4!

Markcheese

unkel wrote: »

I agree with all your arguments, Old diesel, but this alone sums the car up best:



It's just far too expensive. And if they can't sell it for €19-20k (after almost €10k in subsidies) without making a profit, take out that bloody 52kWh battery. Nobody needs that in a city car. Stick in a battery half the size, price it realistically and you have a winner

I'd rather have a MINI EV myself if I were in the market for a small hip city car...

Isn't that fiats concept car idea, you'll have a smaller cheaper permanent battery (maybe 25 /30 kw ), grand for tipping about ..
But of you want to go off to do occasional longer trips you'll rent extra battery modules ..( I think it was something like lift the back seats and clip 3 or 4 in , )
Not that Fiat have much cred with electric cars ,

Mancomb Seepgood

Markcheese wrote: »

Isn't that fiats concept car idea, you'll have a smaller cheaper permanent battery (maybe 25 /30 kw ), grand for tipping about ..
But of you want to go off to do occasional longer trips you'll rent extra battery modules ..( I think it was something like lift the back seats and clip 3 or 4 in , )
Not that Fiat have much cred with electric cars ,

I always thought that the Fiat 500e looked great,although you'd have to be able to put up with the complete absence of fast charging.And live in California.

KCross

Markcheese wrote: »

Isn't that fiats concept car idea, you'll have a smaller cheaper permanent battery (maybe 25 /30 kw ), grand for tipping about ..
But of you want to go off to do occasional longer trips you'll rent extra battery modules ..( I think it was something like lift the back seats and clip 3 or 4 in , )
Not that Fiat have much cred with electric cars ,

Yup...

unkel

Very cool car, but renting the batteries is a load of bull. By the time you have driven to your FIAT garage and got the batteries installed, you could have fast charged along your long journey a few times.

We don't need big batteries, we need very fast charging with a good infrastructure.

Markcheese

unkel wrote: »

Very cool car, but renting the batteries is a load of bull. By the time you have driven to your FIAT garage and got the batteries installed, you could have fast charged along your long journey a few times.

We don't need big batteries, we need very fast charging with a good infrastructure.

I dunno , you pay for the range you want at the start , if your circumstances change you can buy another pack or 2, ,
If you want extra short term you go rent one ... (Do you really want to be charging every 100 km on the way to Donegal,or your auties in London
.)
Yes it only really works if lots of marques use the same modular battery pack system ( but look at fiat/Chrysler/psa/ Opel or the VW group ,)
Shouldn't even have to go to a Fiat garage maybe your local garage or charge station ...

unkel

Markcheese wrote: »

Yes it only really works if lots of marques use the same modular battery pack system

Eh yeah. That was Agassi's plan in 2007. It looked great on paper but it failed miserably in practice. Google "Better Place". We are 13 years on now and some EV manufacturers that actually understand this game are producing cars that can charge at 250kW and they also build a global network of chargers that can provide 250kW. 20 minute charge (just about enough time for a quick toilet break and to grab a coffee from a machine) and a you're good for another 200km at motorway speeds. If only laggards like FIAT concentrated on that instead of these gimmicks...

Markcheese

Which is cool ,but that level of charging speeds also has it's problems and inefficiencies too , ( more at grid level )
Plus batteries are for the moment in the range of 100 to 150 euros a kw, so there's a considerable difference in price between buying a 25 kw car that'll do you 50 weeks a year and a 64 kw or 100kw battery for when you go on holidays ...
If a Dacia sandero has a 50 kw battery it's going to be a mutherf#@kin expensive Dacia , where with a 22 kw it's going to be more reasonable ... (Well 2 to 4 grand cheaper anyway )

unkel

25kWh is fine in a supermini or any city car. As long as it can charge at 3C-4C (like Teslas), so at 75kW-100kW, it can even be used for long distance driving provided there is a decent network of fast chargers

No need for any of this nonsense with battery swap / hire

McGiver

unkel wrote:

We don't need big batteries, we need very fast charging with a good infrastructure.

Exactly. If only 30-40kWh battery cars could do 100kW charging.......

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

25kWh is fine in a supermini or any city car. As long as it can charge at 3C-4C (like Teslas), so at 75kW-100kW, it can even be used for long distance driving provided there is a decent network of fast chargers

No need for any of this nonsense with battery swap / hire

Tesla doesn't charge at those rates for long. You can achieve fast touring speeds in a Tesla by only using the bottom 60% of the battery and fast charging for 20 min every 200k. Employing the same strategy in a 25kWh car you'd be stopping every 70km and your total driving time would be much longer.

unkel

Ioniq has a 28kWh battery. It can average about 60kW from 5-80%, this will take 20 minutes and will give about 150-170km motorway range

If a cheap 2016 car can do this with no fuss, surely it's not too much to ask of a cheap 2021 super mini to do same or better, which would be adequate for a city car that sometimes travels long distances

McGiver

unkel wrote:

If a cheap 2016 car can do this with no fuss, surely it's not too much to ask of a cheap 2021 super mini to do same or better, which would be adequate for a city car that sometimes travels long distances

Questions is - how the hell did the chaebols did that?

Seems European car makers haven't found out...