Is this a good salary?

14ned

cr-07 wrote: »

Its about average. I'm currently on 36k a year with a large MNC. Finished my degree 6 months ago and joined directly after finishing. I have friends who started on 32k and friends who started on 39k.

39k straight out of university? I'll sound old now, but my first job programming paid me £9,000 and I thought myself very wealthy at the time (which I was, relative to my peers).

Did you or your friends have any unusual post grad qualifications, or specialisations?

Niall

Tar.Aldarion

If they are working for any big company, google, MS etc then I'd expect it to be more than that, so just depends where they are working I'm guessing, and there is nothing special about them. I started as a grad 7 years ago in a small Irish company on 33k and was @45k in 6 months - (incl bonus). Heard people last year starting at 68k in google, plus stock and so on, and I doubt there is anything unusual about them. I came top of my class and there was nothing unusual about me.

cr-07

14ned wrote: »

39k straight out of university? I'll sound old now, but my first job programming paid me £9,000 and I thought myself very wealthy at the time (which I was, relative to my peers).

Did you or your friends have any unusual post grad qualifications, or specialisations?

Niall

No, nothing special. I'm 26, worked in McDonalds as a manager previous to college. Done a Bachelors degree in Software Development, graduated last year and started in a MNC in the midlands on 36k. The friend on 39k is only 22, only has the college course under his belt, he is not a 'brain box' or anything. Started in a MNC in Galway straight after college on 39k.

christy G

14ned wrote: »

I'd agree that it seems low. A friend of mine's wife works in Mahon and is on approx 75k. She's a senior Java developer, nearly 20 years




I find that a good wage but for someone in the job 20 years I would of thought she would be on More . I'm 28 and on 60k a year after after tax.

FastFullBack

christy G wrote: »

I'm 28 and on 60k a year after after tax.

28 and on €100K gross. Nice gig, what do you do?

14ned

cr-07 wrote: »

No, nothing special. I'm 26, worked in McDonalds as a manager previous to college. Done a Bachelors degree in Software Development, graduated last year and started in a MNC in the midlands on 36k. The friend on 39k is only 22, only has the college course under his belt, he is not a 'brain box' or anything. Started in a MNC in Galway straight after college on 39k.

Money has lost about a third of its value since I graduated, so when did I reach 27k in my career?

I reached a 32k salary around 2001, where I was by that time a manager with a team of three underneath me. I remember feeling unbelievably wealthy at the time (I lived in Spain, where the average industrial wage at that time was about 8k). I ate regularly at extremely nice restaurants, was out clubbing every weekend for multi-day long parties, and the 35 hour week and extensive annual holidays meant I had tons of leisure time to actually go spend the money. Even with all the spending, I still banked 10k in savings each year.

In buying power of non-housing stuff, your generation of graduates are amazingly fortunate with those kinds of starting salaries. However, I suspect it'll be the housing stuff which will bite you long run. Hell, I'm in my forties and I'm still renting, but I'm also genuinely debt free, unlike anyone else I know of my age who is saddled with considerable negative equity.

I entered the 40% tax bracket for the very first time in my life last year, going from 35k to 70k, mainly because the 3.5x income mortgage cap forced me to. Three years from now I can get a mortgage, then house building time!

(If that doesn't make sense, I'm a contractor, so I can choose how much income to take home each year. I deliberately never entered the 40% tax bracket until now by choice. I've always earned considerably more than I take home, rest goes into pension)

Niall

14ned

christy G wrote: »

14ned wrote: »

I find that a good wage but for someone in the job 20 years I would of thought she would be on More . I'm 28 and on 60k a year after after tax.

Firstly, it's Cork, not Dublin. Secondly, she's in Java, which isn't exactly a hot skillset right now. And thirdly, there is a glass ceiling for pay which is regional, you rise rapidly in your early years, but the annual increment slows down rapidly.

Sure, she probably could get a bit more in today's jobs market, but there are more things in life than pay. She currently has an easy commute, they're flexible with her kids, and to be honest when you reach a certain age you tend to favour stability.

I mean, most people past a certain age working somewhere tolerable will consider jumping ship for a +20% salary, but it usually takes a +33% to make them actually jump.

Niall

Eircom_Sucks

done4now wrote: »

Well to give you some perspective I started on £21k fresh out of Uni (2011), got promoted to £25k (2013) with bonuses every year roughly (~£1k) in Belfast. Moved to Dublin for €40k in 2014 (looking back I should of asked for more) got bump in 2017 to €45k with no bonuses all during my time there as I was ineligible (fecking HR policy due to my title) while similar peers were on ~€60k.

Found out this years interns got offered €20k only to up it by another €17k a few weeks before starting added to a €1k signing on bonus so brining them to a grand total of €38k. So after 8 years experience working as a developer I was earning €7k more than someone who hasn't even finished Uni :mad: (makes me mad even thinking about it again)

Then a few months back I got offered €550 a day as a contractor :rolleyes:

To answer your question I think your salary is excellent for your experience and you are still pretty green so in a few years you can start demanding a lot more. IMO experience is way better than pay especially at the start of your career.

thinly veiled " Look at me earning this "

christy G

14ned wrote: »

christy G wrote: »

Firstly, it's Cork, not Dublin. Secondly, she's in Java, which isn't exactly a hot skillset right now. And thirdly, there is a glass ceiling for pay which is regional, you rise rapidly in your early years, but the annual increment slows down rapidly.

Sure, she probably could get a bit more in today's jobs market, but there are more things in life than pay. She currently has an easy commute, they're flexible with her kids, and to be honest when you reach a certain age you tend to favour stability.

I mean, most people past a certain age working somewhere tolerable will consider jumping ship for a +20% salary, but it usually takes a +33% to make them actually jump.

Niall

What would be a high wage for a software developer?
I'm not a software developer.

christy G

FastFullBack wrote: »

28 and on €100K gross. Nice gig, what do you do?

I work in the security industry .but i dont make that just from that I have a side bussines from both I come out with 60k after tax sometimes a bit more .

Anima

christy G wrote: »

I work in the security industry .but i dont make that just from that I have a side bussines from both I come out with 60k after tax sometimes a bit more .

Hey Christy are you 28 and on 60k after tax? I don't think you've said that enough times so far.

cr-07

What are all of these 'side businesses' people are doing, and how do I get in on it? Is it basically free lance work you are doing?

14ned

christy G wrote: »

14ned wrote: »

What would be a high wage for a software developer
I'm not a software developer.

As always, depends on where, and what specialisation.

Fresh graduates are apparently getting about 35k, which I find excessive, but there you go.

Senior devs in Dublin are typically 100k.

Specialist devs in Dublin certainly can bank 160k.

Specialist devs working remotely for US companies can hit 250k-350k.

Senior devs in Silicon Valley or New York are easily on 200k-250k now, specialist devs 700k, star programmers well into the millions per year. I was quite sickened to learn recently of a friend of mine on 2.2 million. Honestly, he's a good programmer, but nothing remarkable. But in the end what you negotiate is what you're worth.

Niall

smacl

14ned wrote: »

In buying power of non-housing stuff, your generation of graduates are amazingly fortunate with those kinds of starting salaries. However, I suspect it'll be the housing stuff which will bite you long run. Hell, I'm in my forties and I'm still renting, but I'm also genuinely debt free, unlike anyone else I know of my age who is saddled with considerable negative equity.

The housing thing is certainly what has messed many people up. I'm that bit older and was lucky enough to get in early but I'll still be pleased to get rid of the mortgages. That said, I'll have a big chunk of equity to go with the pension when the time comes. Staying debt free makes huge sense where possible. Running a small software house and paying salaries, you never really know when the shít is going to hit the fan next. Only downside of not buying a house where you're self employed is your pension pot needs to be big enough to pay rent when you retire. Either that or assuming it is a directors pension, you can take a big lump out when it matures an buy a place outright.

Donald Trump

cr-07 wrote: »

What are all of these 'side businesses' people are doing, and how do I get in on it? Is it basically free lance work you are doing?

Selling crack maybe??

14ned

smacl wrote: »

The housing thing is certainly what has messed many people up. I'm that bit older and was lucky enough to get in early but I'll still be pleased to get rid of the mortgages.

If you bought in the cities I'd say you're out of negative equity by now, or very close to it, even if you bought at peak. If you bought outside the cities, the picture remains glum. My sister bought at 180k, still not worth more than 130k. She's basically trapped there forever.

Anyway, as for me I've deliberately waited to not buy at the peak of a bubble. I'll be waiting at least three years, hopefully we'll hit a trough by around then.

Niall

smacl

14ned wrote: »

If you bought in the cities I'd say you're out of negative equity by now, or very close to it, even if you bought at peak. If you bought outside the cities, the picture remains glum. My sister bought at 180k, still not worth more than 130k. She's basically trapped there forever.

Anyway, as for me I've deliberately waited to not buy at the peak of a bubble. I'll be waiting at least three years, hopefully we'll hit a trough by around then.

Niall

As I say I was lucky, bought the first place in Dublin city centre for IR£90k sold five years later for €410k, so carried a whack of positive equity into the next place and have always been way ahead of that particular curve. Had sixteen employees at that point which was way scarier. Trying to get graduate programmers to actually pay for themselves as an SME is a serious challenge. Down to three bodies now and a much happier bunny for it.

dotsman

14ned wrote: »

christy G wrote: »

Secondly, she's in Java, which isn't exactly a hot skillset right now.

Eh? Can't get them for love nor money these days.

14ned

dotsman wrote: »

Eh? Can't get them for love nor money these days.

Only hot skillsets get the bump in salaries offered to fill the role.

Otherwise they leave the role unfilled at the lower salary, and complain loudly about "the skills shortage".

Niall

WhiteMemento9

14ned wrote: »

Only hot skillsets get the bump in salaries offered to fill the role.

Otherwise they leave the role unfilled at the lower salary, and complain loudly about "the skills shortage".

Niall

What are you talking about hot skills? He is saying Java is hugely in demand and good devs can't be got for love nor money. Usually, when someone talks about Java like it is some dead language it is from someone not very knowledgeable on the industry but coming from someone who claims to have worked in the area for many years it's very strange. Any strong Java dev can transition those skills to loads of areas if needed and anyone with half a clue knows that as well.

WhiteMemento9

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

If they are working for any big company, google, MS etc then I'd expect it to be more than that, so just depends where they are working I'm guessing, and there is nothing special about them. I started as a grad 7 years ago in a small Irish company on 33k and was @45k in 6 months - (incl bonus). Heard people last year starting at 68k in google, plus stock and so on, and I doubt there is anything unusual about them. I came top of my class and there was nothing unusual about me.

I know of a number of people who started on 55-60k+ straight out of college in the last few years. All graduated near the top of the class from the top Uni's in Dublin. 35-40k seems to be the general starting salary in Dublin. Companies have to pay this to attract people due to the cost of living in Dublin these days.

smacl

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I know of a number of people who started on 55-60k+ straight out of college in the last few years. All graduated near the top of the class from the top Uni's in Dublin. 35-40k seems to be the general starting salary in Dublin. Companies have to pay this to attract people due to the cost of living in Dublin these days.

Shows how messed up Dublin has become. 35k after tax for a single person comes out at 24.7k according to this site. A one bed city centre apartment is 1.8k+ per month on daft, with many quite a bit more. Fresh graduates working in the city on 35k are either going to be commuting or sharing by and large. This country really needs to get a bit more serious about remote working and decentralization. Huge potential savings for employers and drastically improved quality of life for employees. (Rant over )

14ned

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

What are you talking about hot skills? He is saying Java is hugely in demand and good devs can't be got for love nor money. Usually, when someone talks about Java like it is some dead language it is from someone not very knowledgeable on the industry but coming from someone who claims to have worked in the area for many years it's very strange. Any strong Java dev can transition those skills to loads of areas if needed and anyone with half a clue knows that as well.

There is a natural ceiling for pay for various specialisations independent of claimed inability to fill open positions. It's supposed to be whatever the employer thinks the value added is worth, but in reality it's whatever the recruitment agencies say a position is worth. Only if an employer absolutely must fill that role might they offer +10% over the guide price.

As an example:

A general C++ dev might top out at 75-85k.

A C++ dev up to date with C++ 11 might top out at 100k.

A C++ dev up to date with C++ 20 might top out at 160k.

A C++ dev serving on the standards committee might top out at 200k.


The same kind of tiering goes for any particular skillset, be it Java, web dev, whatever. There's a certain "market price" which employers won't go beyond for a given set of role requirements. If they can't fill the opening for the salary offered they won't exceed, then they complain lots about "skills shortages" rather than raise what salary they'll offer.

Back to Java, there are specialisations within Java which are hot, but overall it's as unfashionable as C++ is. That translates into relatively low salary ceilings. A general Python programmer probably earns more than a general Java programmer does nowadays for example, because Python is hotter than Java for general programming right now. That's what I meant.

Niall

smacl

14ned wrote: »

As an example:

A general C++ dev might top out at 75-85k.

A C++ dev up to date with C++ 11 might top out at 100k.

A C++ dev up to date with C++ 20 might top out at 160k.

A C++ dev serving on the standards committee might top out at 200k.

I would have thought domain knowledge or more specific technical knowledge trumps the likes of knowledge of standards at that level. C++ is attractive to a large extent because of the huge wealth of available mature open source libraries. Because these libraries are mature, very few will employ the latest standards as even those under active development need to consider legacy compatibility that might stretch back for quite a few years.

14ned

smacl wrote: »

I would have thought domain knowledge or more specific technical knowledge trumps the likes of knowledge of standards at that level. C++ is attractive to a large extent because of the huge wealth of available mature open source libraries. Because these libraries are mature, very few will employ the latest standards as even those under active development need to consider legacy compatibility that might stretch back for quite a few years.

Oh for sure.

However I chose C++ 11 and C++ 20 for a reason. They're both the "big" releases, C++ 14 and C++ 17 were point releases. C++ 20 comes with Concepts, Coroutines, Ranges and Modules. All those are currently very bespoke domain knowledge, the very few in the world who deeply unknown more than one of them are extremely valuable right now if your company intends to write software using them.

As an idea of the gains available, I recently used Coroutines to multiplex hash table lookups at the assembler opcode dispatch level i.e. no hyperthreading, no kernel threads, what we're doing is using the CPU's ability to dispatch multiple assembler instructions in parallel. Yielded a 6x hash table lookup increase per CPU core. That scales with kernel threads, so your 32 core CPU is now doing 192 more hash table lookups per second than a naive single threaded implementation.

Concepts also are transformative. Totally changes how you design C++ software as you now have a whole additional way of specifying relationships between caterories of types. They basically combine polymorphism with generics, so what used to involve dark arts of convention and idiomatic design patterns known only to the initiated now become much easier to use. And much faster to compile, and with far fewer weird corner case bugs, which is a big win.

You might be surprised at how many C++ shops in Dublin are already exclusively on C++ 17 in order to get onto 20 as soon as possible. Lots of places will be jumping straight from 11 to 20. Compiler support for 20 is already good, though a bit rough and ready, and a simple recompile of an older codebase in C++ 17 often delivers > 20% performance improvements because of improvements to the value categories model in 17.

So basically you're absolutely right, they're paying for domain knowledge.

Niall

namenotavailablE

smacl wrote: »

Shows how messed up Dublin has become. 35k after tax for a single person comes out at 24.7k according to this site.

That site is wrong! It's overstating the PAYE deduction by not allowing for regular tax credits of €3300. Actual net for a single person on €35000 would be €29002 in 2019 and 2020.

moycullen14

smacl wrote: »

Shows how messed up Dublin has become. 35k after tax for a single person comes out at 24.7k according to this site. A one bed city centre apartment is 1.8k+ per month on daft, with many quite a bit more. Fresh graduates working in the city on 35k are either going to be commuting or sharing by and large. This country really needs to get a bit more serious about remote working and decentralization. Huge potential savings for employers and drastically improved quality of life for employees. (Rant over )

Couldn't agree more re remote working. The way to do it is to incentivise employers. Employees already save with reduced commuting costs but there is little benefit to employers and, potentially, a lot of hassles.

The societal benefits are huge, though. Reduce pressure on transport and housing, very eco-friendly, etc.

The problem is the ones who could effect real change don't give a monkeys. Google, Facebook et al know that they or their employees aren't the ones that suffer from over-centralisation.

moycullen14

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

What are you talking about hot skills? He is saying Java is hugely in demand and good devs can't be got for love nor money. Usually, when someone talks about Java like it is some dead language it is from someone not very knowledgeable on the industry but coming from someone who claims to have worked in the area for many years it's very strange. Any strong Java dev can transition those skills to loads of areas if needed and anyone with half a clue knows that as well.

They certainly can be got for money - but employers not willing to pay. Love I'm not so sure about :-)