If the Green Party got into government are they mad

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

GreeBo - I have some mixed opinions as regards the huge wind turbines that are being erected around the country now, they are a different scale to those that came in the first wave. There are benefits and downsides but principally I'm unconvinced that any would be built if it weren't for subsidies and incentives.

Be that as it may and FWIW I can't see these machines being put up in the greater Dublin area - the citizens would just not put up with them. No reason why the Phoenix Park or Howth Head couldn't take such a development and the power generated would be more useful as closer to place of consumption. But it won't happen because of NIMBYism - the urban environmentally aware will happily promote renewable energies but I can't see them being willing to live beside the consequences of their choices. It's as simple as that.

It won't happen in those places because they are just not suitable.

In the same way as you wouldnt put a nuclear plant in the Phoenix Park.

The cost of land alone would kill the project before it got off the ground.

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

It won't happen in those places because they are just not suitable.

Not suitable in what way? If turbines make sense at Carnsore Point, they can make sense at Howth Head or on Bray Head.

Or do you mean, not suitable because these sites are close to/ in the capital city and people wouldn't want them?

Re the OP, if the Greens do get a few TDs next election they shouldn't go into government as they'd be swallowed up again. Better in this instance to sit outside, campaign and try and embarrass the other parties to take up your policies.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

Not suitable in what way? If turbines make sense at Carnsore Point, they can make sense at Howth Head or on Bray Head.

Or do you mean, not suitable because these sites are close to/ in the capital city and people wouldn't want them?

Re the OP, if the Greens do get a few TDs next election they shouldn't go into government as they'd be swallowed up again. Better in this instance to sit outside, campaign and try and embarrass the other parties to take up your policies.

There are already wind farms off Bray head?!

I already gave one reason, i.e. cost, but putting them in the middle of a heavily populated urban area wouldn't make sense from any point of view.

You put them where there is a large amount of free land that experiences the required wind flow.

Honestly, what suitable sites do you see in Phoenix Park or Killiney?
Seems like a cheap shot tbh.

facehugger99

BarryD2 wrote: »

Or do you mean, not suitable because these sites are close to/ in the capital city and people wouldn't want them?

Land is probably one of the biggest factors (along with grid access) in determining location for wind farms. You need dozens (Mount Lucas Wind Farm in Offaly is on 1,100 hectares!) of hectares of land to build an average-sized windfarm..

That's why most of them are in the arse-end of nowhere or on cutaway bogs - the land is cheap and possibly owned by one or two landowners like Coilte or Bord na Mona.

Now imagine trying to negotiate land acquisition with hundreds of individual landowner in the suburbs of Dublin.

abcabc123123

Eamon Ryan isn't happy:

https://twitter.com/EamonRyan/status/1141376352605655045

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

There are already wind farms off Bray head?!

I already gave one reason, i.e. cost, but putting them in the middle of a heavily populated urban area wouldn't make sense from any point of view.

You put them where there is a large amount of free land that experiences the required wind flow.

Honestly, what suitable sites do you see in Phoenix Park or Killiney?
Seems like a cheap shot tbh.

But I wrote on Bray Head or Howth Head as example of elevated sites or offshore if you like in Dublin Bay? Sites that would technically be suitable. Of course they won't be built in these locations because you would have multiple objectors quoting visual & noise pollution, loss of amenity and they would devalue property. Not a cheap shot, just an observation on the double standards of urban environmentalists.

facehugger99 wrote: »

Land is probably one of the biggest factors (along with grid access) in determining location for wind farms. You need dozens (Mount Lucas Wind Farm in Offaly is on 1,100 hectares!) of hectares of land to build an average-sized windfarm..

That's why most of them are in the arse-end of nowhere or on cutaway bogs - the land is cheap and possibly owned by one or two landowners like Coilte or Bord na Mona.

There are people living still in the arse ends of nowhere - so really you're implying that they should just put up and shut up for the greater good?

Aside from which, you'd do worse sometime than to take a trip to the south Wicklow & north Wexford region - well populated part of the SE of Ireland. Not the arse end of nowhere but with a large concentration of wind farm developments and more in the planning pipelines. It's pretty much the case that as long as these are out of sight of the Urban Green, then whatever local impact they have doesn't matter.

When you consider that Mary White came to prominence for the Greens on the back of a successful anti mining campaign in this region, it's a little ironic to see that current Green thinking is indifferent to this new type of landscape degradation.

facehugger99

BarryD2 wrote: »

There are people living still in the arse ends of nowhere - so really you're implying that they should just put up and shut up for the greater good?

If that's what you took from my post, I can't help you any further.

BarryD2

facehugger99 wrote: »

If that's what you took from my post, I can't help you any further.

I'm asking a question about Green policy towards citizens and elaborated on it, pointing out that land based wind farms in the SE anyway are not in unpopulated areas

cutelad

I see on this thread that the green agenda is Dublin based. Greens want all us country folk to move to cities

cutelad

Macha wrote: »

Sure, tourism and connectivity . Does it have to be by airplane? No.

Ireland's train network is SMALLER than it was in the 1930s.

Yes it does have to be mate. A tourist from UK and Germany is hardly going to rail to Kerry or Mayo taking weeks to get here. Gwt real, Ireland is not all about Dublin

The Specialist

cutelad wrote: »

I see on this thread that the green agenda is Dublin based. Greens want all us country folk to move to cities

Absolutely, the likes of GreeBo will slate you for daring to travel 40 miles to a job while he’s very likely in Dublin with his trams and Luas for transport (a.k.a detached from reality). I even saw some gob****e earlier in the thread suggesting banning flights. Think it’s past time all sensible people put a boot to the throat of this hysterical climate nonsense and choke it to death. Why should we be dictated to by a minority??

cutelad

I believe we should put wind turbines and solar in Phoneix Park. As a country if we want to show the world we are going Green why not in the Capital?

cutelad

The Specialist wrote: »

Absolutely, the likes of GreeBo will slate you for daring to travel 40 miles to a job while he’s very likely in Dublin with his trams and Luas for transport (a.k.a detached from reality). I even saw some gob****e earlier in the thread suggesting banning flights. Think it’s past time all sensible people put a boot to the throat of this hysterical climate nonsense and choke it to death. Why should we be dictated to by a minority??

The most sensible post on this thread. Fair play.

Shefwedfan

cutelad wrote: »

I see on this thread that the green agenda is Dublin based. Greens want all us country folk to move to cities

I live in countryside...lived in Dublin for a while

Just because you live outside a city doesn’t mean you can’t make a few small changes to pollute less

It’s a case of some people have the get up and go, doesn’t matter if they live in city or countryside they can work out quickly what changes they can make to save money and help environment

Some people just complain

Shefwedfan

The Specialist wrote: »

Absolutely, the likes of GreeBo will slate you for daring to travel 40 miles to a job while he’s very likely in Dublin with his trams and Luas for transport (a.k.a detached from reality). I even saw some gob****e earlier in the thread suggesting banning flights. Think it’s past time all sensible people put a boot to the throat of this hysterical climate nonsense and choke it to death. Why should we be dictated to by a minority??

I hate to tell you, your the minority

The Specialist

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I hate to tell you, your the minority

We’ll see in the next election won’t we?

Shefwedfan

cutelad wrote: »

I believe we should put wind turbines and solar in Phoneix Park. As a country if we want to show the world we are going Green why not in the Capital?

One of the most popular tourist attractions in Dublin and in the world???

All new estates in Dublin have solar pv or solar water installed....so yes the city is doing it bit

cutelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I hate to tell you, your the minority

You telling me the majority want high tax on basic needs and flight prices doubled etc?
Are you happy put up wind turbines in Phoneix Park and all around Dublin?

Shefwedfan

The Specialist wrote: »

We’ll see in the next election won’t we?

I don’t think you understand, it doesn’t matter what party you vote in, they will all implement a carbon tax

The ship has sailed a long time ago....lucky the majority are for green and will make changes, some people won’t and then complain about taxes....

Shefwedfan

cutelad wrote: »

You telling me the majority want high tax on basic needs and flight prices doubled etc?
Are you happy put up wind turbines in Phoneix Park and all around Dublin?

What are you talking about?

Water John

I suppose Philip Hammond and the Tories are also being swayed by the Green Party in the UK? He also has committed the UK to being carbon neutral by 2050.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

But I wrote on Bray Head or Howth Head as example of elevated sites or offshore if you like in Dublin Bay? Sites that would technically be suitable. Of course they won't be built in these locations because you would have multiple objectors quoting visual & noise pollution, loss of amenity and they would devalue property. Not a cheap shot, just an observation on the double standards of urban environmentalists.



There are people living still in the arse ends of nowhere - so really you're implying that they should just put up and shut up for the greater good?

Its not a double standard... it's suitable locations.
Plenty didn't want them off bray head yet they are there.


I don't care if people live in the middle of nowhere... but if you want to do that AND commute 40miles you are going to pay for it. Don't expect me to subsidise your choices.

Btw i spend plenty of time on Wicklow and wexford... nice train journey.

Shefwedfan

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not a double standard... it's suitable locations.
Plenty didn't want them off bray head yet they are there.


I don't care if people live in the middle of nowhere... but if you want to do that AND commute 40miles you are going to pay for it. Don't expect me to subsidise your choices.

Btw i spend plenty of time on Wicklow and wexford... nice train journey.

Train journey down to cork last week, lovely scenery the whole way down and nice and relaxed when I arrived....train full of tourist, very few Irish using it....

Macha

cutelad wrote: »

Yes it does have to be mate. A tourist from UK and Germany is hardly going to rail to Kerry or Mayo taking weeks to get here. Gwt real, Ireland is not all about Dublin

Yes they are. They already drive 5+ hours from Dublin. A lot of the Germans I talk to here are horrified at Ireland's cycling and public transport infrastructure.

Look sorry. Its clear you don't know what you're talking about and don't have an alternative to letting the world burn.

Macha

cutelad wrote: »

I believe we should put wind turbines and solar in Phoneix Park. As a country if we want to show the world we are going Green why not in the Capital?

This is trolling. I'm done with this thread.

eagle eye

The Specialist wrote:

Absolutely, the likes of GreeBo will slate you for daring to travel 40 miles to a job while he’s very likely in Dublin with his trams and Luas for transport (a.k.a detached from reality). I even saw some gob****e earlier in the thread suggesting banning flights. Think it’s past time all sensible people put a boot to the throat of this hysterical climate nonsense and choke it to death. Why should we be dictated to by a minority??

Maybe you should have actually read all my post as regards banning flights.
My point was that you cannot go taxing the living **** out of my ordinary people with carbon taxes etc. and let big companies off scot free. Planes are doing much more damage to the environment than cars. I was saying the Greens are all talk about personal responsibility and forcing people to change by taxing them but you never hear them say a word against big companies like airlines, mobile phone and tablet manufacturers or data centre owners who are all doing untold damage to the environment. I said start with banning flights and see how people react.

Just to add, that Eamon Ryan is a hypocrite. He is on a flight every couple of weeks. And then he jets back in and spouts his rubbish and wags his finger at the ordinary man who might get on a plane once a year.

Macha

How do you know he's on a flight every other week? What on earth are you taking about?

blanch152

cutelad wrote: »

I see on this thread that the green agenda is Dublin based. Greens want all us country folk to move to cities

I make no apology for that. The biggest contributors to climate problems on an individual level are those that commute 100kms a day, change their car every year, burn their rubbish in the back garden, pour buckets of weedkiller on their immaculate lawns and spend a fortune on oil to heat their poorly insulated houses on top of a hill.

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

Never have I blamed the greens for anything.




You keep churning out the same rubbish with no solutions for the real problems people will face because of increased fuel prices due to carbon tax. Apologies if I offended you.

The idea of increased fuel prices is to punish those who made unsustainable life choices. Nobody in government ever forced anyone to live on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Neither did they force anyone to travel 100kms a day to work. All of that is individual choice. If carbon taxes force people to make more sustainable individual choices, then that can only be good.

eagle eye

blanch152 wrote:

The idea of increased fuel prices is to punish those who made unsustainable life choices. Nobody in government ever forced anyone to live on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Neither did they force anyone to travel 100kms a day to work. All of that is individual choice. If carbon taxes force people to make more sustainable individual choices, then that can only be good.

So if somebody chooses to live where they were brought up to mind their aging parents they should be punished for it?

Shefwedfan

eagle eye wrote: »

So if somebody chooses to live where they were brought up to mind their aging parents they should be punished for it?

The government has been offering incentives to move to electric cars and insulate house for years now. They will point to that and the uptake has been minimal

Migration to electric minimal but the purchase of new cars has increased. They can’t take the many to suit the few. Simple as that.

For some people additional taxes are going to really hurt, for some it will just wake them up to what they should have done years ago...

Additional taxes on diesel etc have been talked about for years, why everyone is surprised now is shocking? In reality they should have done this 2-3 years ago when it would have made a difference

cutelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What are you talking about?

If the country wants put up turbines etc to get more wind energy why not start in the capital. Howth, Bray head Phoneix Park could be good options

cutelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The government has been offering incentives to move to electric cars and insulate house for years now. They will point to that and the uptake has been minimal

Migration to electric minimal but the purchase of new cars has increased. They can’t take the many to suit the few. Simple as that.

For some people additional taxes are going to really hurt, for some it will just wake them up to what they should have done years ago...

Additional taxes on diesel etc have been talked about for years, why everyone is surprised now is shocking? In reality they should have done this 2-3 years ago when it would have made a difference

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

The country is not ready for electric cars. No infrastructure. The range of mileage it can do not good enough.
Would it be an idea make the cars affordable. 15 grand for example then people might take it up

I guess the green hippies want turf banned too

cutelad

eagle eye wrote: »

So if somebody chooses to live where they were brought up to mind their aging parents they should be punished for it?

Yes that's the idea. Greens want us all move the cities.

cutelad

blanch152 wrote: »

The idea of increased fuel prices is to punish those who made unsustainable life choices. Nobody in government ever forced anyone to live on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Neither did they force anyone to travel 100kms a day to work. All of that is individual choice. If carbon taxes force people to make more sustainable individual choices, then that can only be good.

The middle of nowhere is where one may come from. Such a disrespectful comment. How can someone move to a city where house prices are crazy and the lifestyle is utterly crap. City hipsters lecture us mere mortals in the country we shouldn't farm, shouldn't cut turf etc.
We really have lost the run with this green agenda. Bring on a recession again and people will be back to normal

Shefwedfan

cutelad wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

The country is not ready for electric cars. No infrastructure. The range of mileage it can do not good enough.
Would it be an idea make the cars affordable. 15 grand for example then people might take it up

I guess the green hippies want turf banned too

Your just trolling.....

I already told you I live in countryside, my family all live in what most people would classify as the "middle of nowhere".

We all seem to be able to recycle, using the very difficult 3 colour coded bin system, insulate our house, and we have 3 electric cars and growing. One of them been the 1st Gen Leaf

So just because you don't live in a town doesn't mean you cannot move towards more green options

In regards to the price of cars? How many cars at the moment are 15k new? doesn't matter what fuel they are using?

15k will get you a very very good second hand electric car, the same way it will get you a very good second hand petrol/diesel.

So instead of trolling, come up with 1 decent suggestion, because so far all I have read from you is a lot of rubbish.....none of which is relevant.....

Still dont understand how you dont understand the bin system????just watching my 3 year old and he knows which bin to throw plastic into and which to throw rubbish....

GreeBo

eagle eye wrote: »

So if somebody chooses to live where they were brought up to mind their aging parents they should be punished for it?

No, they just cant expect the rest of us to subsidise it.

GreeBo

cutelad wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

The country is not ready for electric cars. No infrastructure. The range of mileage it can do not good enough.
Would it be an idea make the cars affordable. 15 grand for example then people might take it up

I guess the green hippies want turf banned too

You are wrong.
There is infrastructure.
The range is "good enough" for 95% of drivers
Its a brand new, high spec car. Why would it magically be cheaper than the equivalent ICE?
No we shouldnt have wholesale burning of turf.

Is it just ranting or do you have any actual, concrete ideas?

abcabc123123

eagle eye wrote: »

I was saying the Greens are all talk about personal responsibility and forcing people to change by taxing them but you never hear them say a word against big companies like airlines, mobile phone and tablet manufacturers or data centre owners who are all doing untold damage to the environment.

This is bizarre - almost a total inversion of reality. It's the government who have been regularly espousing personal action to combat climate change. The Greens recently have opposed the new runway at Dublin Airport, the Galway bypass, granting new drilling exploration licences, and support taxing airplane fuel.

Shefwedfan

cutelad wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

The country is not ready for electric cars. No infrastructure. The range of mileage it can do not good enough.
Would it be an idea make the cars affordable. 15 grand for example then people might take it up

I guess the green hippies want turf banned too

Just to note, I live in countryside, 3 years with electric car and used a public charger 5 times I think....rest of the time everything is done at home. My car is the Gen 1 version so about half of what the standard battery you get today


My mother, well she has Leaf Gen 1, doesn't even have an account with eCars....woudn't know how to plug the car into a public charger....she lives in the middle of nowhere......


Infrastructure for most people is your own home.Whichsuit people in country better because they will have a house, not a flat, and they will have a driveway, not public parking......

cutelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just to note, I live in countryside, 3 years with electric car and used a public charger 5 times I think....rest of the time everything is done at home. My car is the Gen 1 version so about half of what the standard battery you get today


My mother, well she has Leaf Gen 1, doesn't even have an account with eCars....woudn't know how to plug the car into a public charger....she lives in the middle of nowhere......


Infrastructure for most people is your own home.Whichsuit people in country better because they will have a house, not a flat, and they will have a driveway, not public parking......

If you were a parent with the usual running around to schools, gaa and drama groups so a heavy user of car, what would a full charge cost? How long to charge?

cutelad

abcabc123123 wrote: »

This is bizarre - almost a total inversion of reality. It's the government who have been regularly espousing personal action to combat climate change. The Greens recently have opposed the new runway at Dublin Airport, the Galway bypass, granting new drilling exploration licences, and support taxing airplane fuel.

I know its off topic but is Galway not crying out for a bypass?

cutelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your just trolling.....

I already told you I live in countryside, my family all live in what most people would classify as the "middle of nowhere".

We all seem to be able to recycle, using the very difficult 3 colour coded bin system, insulate our house, and we have 3 electric cars and growing. One of them been the 1st Gen Leaf

So just because you don't live in a town doesn't mean you cannot move towards more green options

In regards to the price of cars? How many cars at the moment are 15k new? doesn't matter what fuel they are using?

15k will get you a very very good second hand electric car, the same way it will get you a very good second hand petrol/diesel.

So instead of trolling, come up with 1 decent suggestion, because so far all I have read from you is a lot of rubbish.....none of which is relevant.....

Still dont understand how you dont understand the bin system????just watching my 3 year old and he knows which bin to throw plastic into and which to throw rubbish....

We dont use bins as too expensive so use the council drop off point. 5 euro a big bag into the tip. Many people get pulled up regarding what plastics we could recycle, I was even told by council staff to go away and wash some plastic bottles. I took them and never returned them.

So my point regarding electric cars is if we are really serious why not make them cheap so it would push people that direction.

My point is use the carrot carrot carrot. I listen to Greens and the report by FG and its use the stick. If you used a major price reduction on electric cars I bet the uptake would increase big time. But maybe for once could this country put infrastructure in place first. Infrastructure in every town and village in Ireland not just Dublin. Charging points.
Would anyone say that there should be a different pricing structure for charging cars? Keep the prices low.

ancapailldorcha

cutelad wrote: »

I know its off topic but is Galway not crying out for a bypass?

Mod: Please take this to the Galway forum, not here.

GreeBo

cutelad wrote: »

If you were a parent with the usual running around to schools, gaa and drama groups so a heavy user of car, what would a full charge cost? How long to charge?

Thats not a heavy use of a car!

facehugger99

cutelad wrote: »

But maybe for once could this country put infrastructure in place first. Infrastructure in every town and village in Ireland not just Dublin. Charging points.

The electorate like to complain about infrastructure but constantly favour Parties that prioritise tax cuts and current spending above Capital.

'Just put in the infrastructure first' whether it is about public transport, water or charging points is just handy excuse for most to justify not wanting to pay for something.

Shefwedfan

cutelad wrote: »

If you were a parent with the usual running around to schools, gaa and drama groups so a heavy user of car, what would a full charge cost? How long to charge?

I have 3 kids, so I have school, creche, GAA, Jiu jitsu, swimming, gymnastics and all the other daily runs you have to do.



Yes we have a diesel, but it is the back up, the electric is used for everything. If both of us are off the diesel could sit for 2 weeks and not get moved from driveway.


How long it takes? no idea exactly, its plugged in at nightime and its fully charged in morning. Also car set to perfect temp before I get in.



I replaced an A6 with my electric, I was paying 1600 at least on diesel per year. In the first year I done more mileage and it cost me circa 200-300 on electricity. That was with no public charging. Also the service costs are nothing and the tax is 120 or something like that......also it wasn't an old A6, it was a 2011 new model and was in perfect condition



People ask me why I moved to electric, I turn around and ask them why would you not move to electric?


I have a diesel for size, an electric 7 seater Galaxy/SMAX size vehicle is not available. Once it is that will be gone tomorrow morning.

GreeBo

facehugger99 wrote: »

The electorate like to complain about infrastructure but constantly favour Parties that prioritise tax cuts and current spending above Capital.

'Just put in the infrastructure first' whether it is about public transport, water or charging points is just handy excuse for most to justify not wanting to pay for something.

"just put it in" but I'm not paying for it and don't put it near me.

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not a double standard... it's suitable locations.

Sorry GreeBo, it is a double standard. Dublin, Cork whatever will be deemed unsuitable locations for industrial scale wind turbines etc because too many residents would object to them. Rural areas will be considered suitable, because there are fewer residents there and their views can be steamrollered. That's the bottom line.

cutelad wrote: »

So my point regarding electric cars is if we are really serious why not make them cheap so it would push people that direction.
My point is use the carrot carrot carrot. I listen to Greens and the report by FG and its use the stick. If you used a major price reduction on electric cars I bet the uptake would increase big time. But maybe for once could this country put infrastructure in place first. Infrastructure in every town and village in Ireland not just Dublin. Charging points. Would anyone say that there should be a different pricing structure for charging cars? Keep the prices low.

This is happening initially with grants and free public charging but it's plainly not sustainable into the future. Mechanised transport requires energy input and it doesn't matter much whether that's from fossil fuels or renewables, this energy has a cost to make and distribute. Cars and batteries have substantial costs. So people & the environment are going to pay one way or the other, there's no free lunch. The only long term solution is to start depopulating the world of humans and/or make do with a lot less energy use.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sorry GreeBo, it is a double standard. Dublin, Cork whatever will be deemed unsuitable locations for industrial scale wind turbines etc because too many residents would object to them. Rural areas will be considered suitable, because there are fewer residents there and their views can be steamrollered. That's the bottom line.

You can keep saying it but it wont make it any more true.
The view of many are already "blighted" with the farms off Bray head.

The reason they are not all over Dublin and Cork is because Dublin and Cork are full of *people* and expensive land.
A 2 MW turbine needs about 1.5 acres. Would you be willing to pay for that in Dublin?

BarryD2 wrote: »

This is happening initially with grants and free public charging but it's plainly not sustainable into the future. Mechanised transport requires energy input and it doesn't matter much whether that's from fossil fuels or renewables, this energy has a cost to make and distribute. Cars and batteries have substantial costs. So people & the environment are going to pay one way or the other, there's no free lunch. The only long term solution is to start depopulating the world with humans and/or make do with a lot less energy use.

Ok, mass genocide apart, if we can agree that renewables are better for the environment then we might as well move to them since we are going to pay for fossil fuels anyway, right?