Immigration Controls

j8wk2feszrnpao

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Try going to Australia, Canada, New Zealand , America etc without a visa and see how you get on.

Are you suggesting America doesn't have an issue with illegal immigrants? Pretty sure Donald may disagree with you.

2ndcoming

As this is under the [Irish Economy] banner immigration has been shown, time and time again, to be a positive thing, economically.

We have an ageing populace who will become more and more of a burden on the state the more time passes. Immigrants are shown to be net contributors overall. Higher population means more people earning / spending / paying taxes and this drives the economy.

Skilled / unskilled, it doesn't really matter, all are needed.

A bigger problem is the continuation of emigration of young, skilled Irish nationals. While there will always be a number of young people who want to fly the coop, it is fair to say this number is remaining too high in Ireland and it is also fair to say that the centre-right neoliberal policies of our current government contribute to this rather than helping stop it.

These parties are buoyed by a generation who won the lottery of inflation, buying houses in the 70s and 80s and seeing their value grow like a mushroom cloud in the decades since, with 2008-15 looking like a minor blip at this stage. Lucky them, but of course this means that future generations starting out in that hyperinflated market are far more likely to feck off somewhere else rather than shackle themselves with a lifetime mortgage on a property they don't even really like for the sake of it when they can be paid more to do the same job with a better lifestyle somewhere else.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stephen15 wrote: »

A shortage of skilled labour is often used by proponents of open borders making out that all immigrants coming in are highly skilled which I cannot accept as being the truth. For example I highly doubt all the immigrants in DP are doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers etc.

Is there anyone making that claim?

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also highly doubt that Ahmed working the night shift at the local Circle K garage has a degree either.

You know a guy called Ahmed working that shift, or they are all Ahmed to you (like we were referred to as Paddy/Mick)?
BTW, I worked as a basic line operator back in about '03. Plenty had degrees. The job doesn't has to define your qualification.

Eric Cartman

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Is there anyone making that claim?


You know a guy called Ahmed working that shift, or they are all Ahmed to you (like we were referred to as Paddy/Mick)?
BTW, I worked as a basic line operator back in about '03. Plenty had degrees. The job doesn't has to define your qualification.

every immigration thread, every post about restricting immigration and you always get a handful of users replying 'but what about the doctors/nurses/engineers etc... There are some that believe if 1 doctor comes in that its worth taking 100 on the dole , there are others who genuinely believe the majority are skilled and ready to contribute. Both of which are just tidbits of lunacy.

4068ac1elhodqr

2ndcoming wrote: »

We have an ageing populace who will become more and more of a burden on the state the more time passes. Immigrants are shown to be net contributors overall. Higher population means more people earning / spending / paying taxes and this drives the economy.

Skilled / unskilled, it doesn't really matter*, all are needed.

Highly Incorrect.

An estimated 30-50% of all current roles will be lost by the 2030's.

....And any new roles being created will require (very) high levels of education, experience and literacy.

So it *really matters* all the more who's coming (quality), and also in and in what quantity (housing and social services can't cope already)

Not to mention other factors such as global over-population (esp. in the basket case that is sub-sahara Africa).
Not to mention potential future global conflicts, mass civil disturbances and growing non-ec illegal/economic migration.
Not to mention further (expensive) EU expansion (W.Balkans) and matters related to the Barca Agreement.
Not to mention likely corporate tax harmonisation doing away with the 12.5% and Dutch sandwiches.
Not to mention the mass wealth shift to China from the West (towards India also).

Stephen15

Eric Cartman wrote: »

every immigration thread, every post about restricting immigration and you always get a handful of users replying 'but what about the doctors/nurses/engineers etc... There are some that believe if 1 doctor comes in that its worth taking 100 on the dole , there are others who genuinely believe the majority are skilled and ready to contribute. Both of which are just tidbits of lunacy.

It's one of the trojan horses used by proponents of open borders and mass immigration

rossie1977

Very unlikely there is wealth shift to India in next ten years. I was just there in March and the levels of poverty, pollution etc alone would take far more than a decade to address

Difference between rate of progress in Indian cities and Chinese cities is like night and day

2ndcoming

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

Highly Incorrect.

An estimated 30-50% of all current roles will be lost by the 2030's.

....And any new roles being created will require (very) high levels of education, experience and literacy.

So it *really matters* all the more who's coming (quality), and also in and in what quantity (housing and social services can't cope already)

Not to mention other factors such as global over-population (esp. in the basket case that is sub-sahara Africa).
Not to mention potential future global conflicts, mass civil disturbances and growing non-ec illegal/economic migration.
Not to mention further (expensive) EU expansion (W.Balkans) and matters related to the Barca Agreement.
Not to mention likely corporate tax harmonisation doing away with the 12.5% and Dutch sandwiches.
Not to mention the mass wealth shift to China from the West (towards India also).

Highly incorrect.

Housing is only an issue because we allow it to be. You sound extremely entitled. Why would anyone skilled (quality) want to come to a country where they will pay more (housing) for less (services) while earning less (wages)? To serve you? Why would they want to when you clearly view them as some kind of horror we need to protect ourselves from?

People are people. Get over yourself.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Eric Cartman wrote: »

every immigration thread, every post about restricting immigration and you always get a handful of users replying 'but what about the doctors/nurses/engineers etc...

Yes, because there are extremists that just shout about "bloody immigrants" with no appreciation about the value that many of them provide.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are some that believe if 1 doctor comes in that its worth taking 100 on the dole , there are others who genuinely believe the majority are skilled and ready to contribute. Both of which are just tidbits of lunacy.

Yet nobody here has stated that, along with nobody stating open borders or mass immigration. But I guess some people only see what they want to see.

4068ac1elhodqr

rossie1977 wrote: »

Very unlikely there is wealth shift to India in next ten years. I was just there in March and the levels of poverty, pollution etc alone would take far more than a decade to address
Difference between rate of progress in Indian cities and Chinese cities is like night and day

By 2030, India (then $46.3 trillion) will overtake USA GDP (PPP), and will overtake China for population. It will experience rapid urbanisation and high levels of economic growth.

The UK won't even be in the top10. Then by 2060 Chinas GDP will be twice the US (or equal to USA & Europe combined).

4068ac1elhodqr

2ndcoming wrote: »

Highly incorrect.
Housing ....

Highly incorrect, forget about the (sub, secondary issue) regarding housing, you said:

2ndcoming wrote: »

Skilled / unskilled, it doesn't really matter, all are needed.

This is an incorrect and uneducated statement (see above for explanation) as to why you can't accept unskilled en masse. They (unskilled) are really not needed in the coming age of automation.

If you're response is 'people are people', try harder for a better counter-argument or investigate the matter better.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

If you're response is 'people are people', try harder for a better counter-argument or investigate the matter better.

Telling people to try harder, but misusing "you're"?
As for PPP, India are currently above Germany, the UK and France. Means very little.

rossie1977

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

By 2030, India (then $46.3 trillion) will overtake USA GDP (PPP), and will overtake China for population. It will experience rapid urbanisation and high levels of economic growth.

The UK won't even be in the top10. Then by 2060 Chinas GDP will be twice the US (or equal to USA & Europe combined).

PPP doesn't mean much. India is well ahead of countries like Germany and Japan now in terms of PPP but vast parts of the country are third world.

That standard chartered prediction is agreed upon by most analysts either. India would need to see around 450% growth over next decade which again looking at what is happening on the ground there right now even in its biggest cities like Delhi or Mumbai in 2019 looks extremely unlikely.

4068ac1elhodqr

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Telling people to try harder, but misusing "you're"?
As for PPP, India are currently above Germany, the UK and France. Means very little.

English wasn't ever my favourite subject, education wise (too much of that Shakesphere lad), but am blessed with many other talents, education, certifications and skills however.

For India to overtake the current world leader (US) it means rather alot.

rossie1977 wrote: »

PPP doesn't mean much. India is well ahead of countries like Germany and Japan now in terms of PPP but vast parts of the country are third world.

That standard chartered prediction is not agreed upon by most analysts either. India would need to see around 450% growth over next decade which again looking at what is happening on the ground there right now even in its biggest cities like Delhi or Mumbai in 2019 looks extremely unlikely.

For India to overtake the current world leader (US), it means rather alot.

Standard Chartered estimates growth of +387% (2017-2030) from 9.5tr to 46.3tr by 2030. Their population will overtake China 2026. With seven major cities seeing 8%+ annual population growth.

All this however (wealth shift W-E), is an aside as to why there shouldn't be mass unskilled migration to Ireland, many other factors e.g. Automation: are more highly relevant.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

English wasn't ever my favourite subject, education wise (too much of that Shakesphere lad), but am blessed with many other talents, education, certifications and skills however.

Don't forget your modesty.

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

For India to overtake the current world leader (US) it means rather alot.

No, no it doesn't. Is there really a lot of people that care that they are above the UK/France/Germany/Japan? No, and for good reasons.

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Yes, because there are extremists that just shout about "bloody immigrants" with no appreciation about the value that many of them provide.

To use one of your favourite phrases no one here has stated that. Neither has anyone said they are against all immigration.

Yet nobody here has stated that, along with nobody stating open borders or mass immigration. But I guess some people only see what they want to see.

Just like yourself so or do you see any problems with mass uncontrolled immigration?

4068ac1elhodqr

munstermagic11 wrote: »

No, no it doesn't. Is there really a lot of people that care that they are above the UK/France/Germany/Japan? No, and for good reasons.

If they get involved with a usd-replacement global reserve currency (BRICS), or any type of close regional partnerships they will.

India are considered a 'friend' of NATO (COMCASA signed last year). However when they surpass the US, along with China they will call their own shots and form their own deals or alliances.

Again this is slightly off-topic (obvious global wealth shifts) as to why we don't actually need mass 'unskilled' migration, as someone suggested.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Stephen15 wrote: »

To use one of your favourite phrases no one here has stated that. Neither has anyone said they are against all immigration.

My response was in reply was to someone who stated "every immigration thread", where you will often find it.
As for this thread:

enricoh wrote: »

So foreigners are twice as likely to be a drain on the state as paddies. Yay, lets take another 500,000 in so!

Ohhhhh, them bloody foreigners!

Stephen15 wrote: »

Just like yourself so or do you see any problems with mass uncontrolled immigration?

No, not just like myself, as I've never stated there are no issues with mass uncontrolled immigration. Leaving aside the obvious issues of mass uncontrolled immigration, one issue (just even the smaller levels we have) is that it creates some people who think they can just be referred to as Ahmed.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

If they get involved with a usd-replacement global reserve currency (BRICS), or any type of close regional partnerships they will.

And if they don't, which they won't, it doesn't matter anyway.

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

India are considered a 'friend' of NATO (COMCASA signed last year). However when they surpass the US, along with China they will call their own shots and form their own deals or alliances.

If they surpass the US via PPP, it won't matter, just as it doesn't for the UK/Germany/France/Japan. They won't be surpassing the US in any meaningful way.

Done with the thread anyway. Have a good night.

Stephen15

munstermagic11 wrote: »

My response was in reply was to someone who stated "every immigration thread", where you will often find it.

I don't know what immigration threads your looking at because I certainly haven't seen anything apart from genuine concerns about mass immigration.

Ohhhhh, them bloody foreigners!

Taking what the OP said out of context whom was merely pointing out that 21% of people on the housing list are non EU which is a fact backed up by msm and 1 in 3 on the housing are non nationals if you include EU citizens. So if you deemed a third of the housing list ineligible and I'm not even talking about deportations the housing would be 33% shorter.

Meaning the Irish would be housed 33% quicker but that would mean putting the natives first in their own country oh imagine the inhumanity of that.

No, not just like myself, as I've never stated there are no issues with mass uncontrolled immigration. Leaving aside the obvious issues of mass uncontrolled immigration, one issue (just even the smaller levels we have) is that it creates some people who think they can just be referred to as Ahmed.

So you'll admit there are issues with mass immigration. What's wrong with referring to someone as Ahmed? It's a common first name that third world immigrants living in Ireland have just like Mohammed, Abdul or Sanjay. I was using an example.

2ndcoming

Kristian Easy Meteorology wrote: »

Highly incorrect, forget about the (sub, secondary issue) regarding housing, you said:



This is an incorrect and uneducated statement (see above for explanation) as to why you can't accept unskilled en masse. They (unskilled) are really not needed in the coming age of automation.

If you're response is 'people are people', try harder for a better counter-argument or investigate the matter better.

You are right that automation is coming, but you are wrong about who it will mainly affect.

Middle-management and general office positions would be the first on the chopping block. We will still need cleaners, farmworkers, landscapers, burger flippers, waiters and waitresses, hotel staff, bin men. All the kind of jobs currently done mainly by unskilled immigrants.

Perhaps when Mary aged 43 loses her handy number doing the books for a small local company she will be open to reskilling as a binman. Perhaps not.

L1011

Project Management is a decently paid role that could be automated almost immediately. Far easier than nearly anything else

4068ac1elhodqr

2ndcoming wrote: »

You are right that automation is coming, but you are wrong about who it will mainly affect.

Middle-management and general office positions would be the first on the chopping block. We will still need cleaners, farmworkers, landscapers, burger flippers, waiters and waitresses, hotel staff, bin men. All the kind of jobs currently done mainly by unskilled immigrants.

Perhaps when Mary aged 43 loses her handy number doing the books for a small local company she will be open to reskilling as a binman. Perhaps not.

Incorrect again, retail is currently experiencing the largest brunt of the losses. Sure some fiscal and lower grade office work will be lost in Wave1 (algorithmic), but in the larger context, this is minor overall. Mary in accountancy will already have the aptitude, education, literacy and ability to retrain easily.

Management (creative, innovative and human factored types) will always be needed. Landscapers generally require a horticulture qualification, plus some years of experience to get employed.

Farming is becoming highly automated, Ocado have just invested £17m in controlled vertical farming. Many dairy farmers don't even need humans in the milking process. Fruit picking is seasonal only, and more tricky, but this still is on the verge of robotic takeover

An autobot burger flipper was fired because he was too fast compared to employees (employee unions), McD+BK are currently installing self-service kiosks with contactless payment ability.

You're very importantly, entirely ingoring the more significant Wave2&3 (mid 2020+) whereby 'manual and routine tasks' will close to 40% wipeout. I.e. Transport, warehousing, factories, construction, retail (again) and all associated support services.

Factor in too young males with low education levels will be hit the hardest, if they also lean to unskilled occupations, expect higher 50-60% redundancy.

A Shropshire Lad

I see a lot of companies offering remote working now. Certainly in my company there are developers who are based abroad. With the aid of technology, I am sure in a few years time the idea of going into the 'office' every day might be a rarety, for some jobs anyway. It could also solve a lot of the issues we have about living space in cities etc.