Shakedown at Dublin airport, Circle-K / McDonald's

Titanucd

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Read Section 20 of the Vehicle Clamping Act 2015.

If you don't get a response within 21 days of your original submission of appeal just escalate to the NTA and mention to the NTA that the clamper failed to comply with Section 20 of the Act, which is an offence it can be fined for.

But the thing is I can’t prove I submitted it. I spoke to NTA who advised me to do it again and take screenshots and forward them to them and they’d follow up

CrankyHaus

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

paddy19

Some comments here about 10 minutes grace....

This only seems to apply where you have paid a parking fee.
It does not apply where you have breached T&C's.


5. (b) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked in a non-statutory clamping
place due to a breach or breaches of the terms and conditions or
restrictions or prohibitions applicable to parking in the non-statutory
clamping place concerned, other than such terms, conditions, restrictions
or prohibitions falling within paragraph

(i) a clamp may be fixed to the vehicle,
(ii) the vehicle may be relocated, or
(iii) both, as the case may be, at any time after the detection of this breach or these breaches.

Titanucd

paddy19 wrote: »

Some comments here about 10 minutes grace....

This only seems to apply where you have paid a parking fee.
It does not apply where you have breached T&C's.


5. (b) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked in a non-statutory clamping
place due to a breach or breaches of the terms and conditions or
restrictions or prohibitions applicable to parking in the non-statutory
clamping place concerned, other than such terms, conditions, restrictions
or prohibitions falling within paragraph

(i) a clamp may be fixed to the vehicle,
(ii) the vehicle may be relocated, or
(iii) both, as the case may be, at any time after the detection of this breach or these breaches.

That’s correct. Plus I think the 10 minutes grace really only applies to city/council controlled areas and not a private area like this one.

My only chance is that NTA uphold the appeal based on the signage. It doesn’t define what the “site” is nor does it mention McDonalds so I can legitimately argue that if the site isn’t defined then how was I supposed to know I’d left it?

Not to mention the clamping was completely against the spirit of the law. Grasping at straws maybe....

paddy19

Keep going, make the feckers earn there money and play by the rules.

The 10 minute grace period applies to private areas (non statutory bodies) too but only where you pay or should have paid a fee.

Period of time for carrying out clamping and relocation
5. (a) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked in a non-statutory clamping place
due to the failure of the driver or the person in charge of the vehicle
to pay the relevant parking fee or due to the expiry of the period
permitted for parking by reference to the relevant parking fee paid:
(i) a clamp may not be fixed to the vehicle,
(ii) the vehicle may not be relocated, or
(iii) both, as the case may be,
until:
(A) where the relevant parking fee has not been paid, not
less than ten (10) minutes have elapsed following detection
of the failure to pay the relevant parking fee; or

OmarLittle187

quad_red wrote: »

Hi folks,

My brother in law and the family came into dublin airport yesterday (moving back to Ireland!) and in the jigs and reels a bag got left at dublin airport. Had to drive him 2 hours back to Dublin airport today to get the bag.

After I dropped him at Terminal 2 I made my way over to the McDonalds on the airport campus. Plan was to get two cans of Monster and two scratch cards (an in-joke from our days driving long distance in the states) and two burgers from McDonalds.

Stopped at McDonalds and walked to the Circle-K 20 metres away to get the Monster first (made sense to get hot food second given I didn't know how long he was going to be). Did glance at the signs saying they were for customers only which was fine - i was getting food. Was approx 60 to 100 seconds in CircleK and walked back towards McDonalds. I glanced over at my car and to my ****ing astonishment it was clamped.

Cue one of the most enraging experiences I have ever had as two smug clampers informed me that the McDonalds car park was only for customers. They dismissed my attempts to say I was going into McDonalds and said that the small signs made it 'clear'. So they sit on their bonnets waiting to clamp people instantly.

The signs were tiny, half way up poles. In the third paragraph they said that if people 'left the site' they would be clamped. Even if I had read that I would have assumed that meant people trying to use the mcdonalds car park who were going to the airport. There was no mention of CircleK

So I am now 125euro down because I chose to get the two f**king cans of drink first before getting the burgers.

This is such sharp practice. I appealed to the clampers and said I was only two mins to which the guy smugly replied 'it was less than that'. The other guy said they'd done 'loads of people today'.

Is there any way to appeal this or am I wasting my time? I've been clamped before for forgetting to renew my parking at the train station which was upsetting but my fault etc. but never anything like this.

Absolutely gutted.

As far as I'm aware...
You can remove the clamp yourself with a tool such as angle grinder.
Unless the clamping company is operating a government contract they are unable to prosecute you for removing it.
In this instance the clamping company are operating a contract with another company no governmental or semi state body involved

q85dw7osi4lebg

Blame any marks on the wheel on the clampers, threaten to take to small claims court.

paddy19

Criminal Damage Act, 1991 would seem to apply.

2.—(1) A person who without lawful excuse damages any property belonging to another intending to damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be damaged shall be guilty of an offence.

Best bit would be to replace the damaged lock, but they are not cheap.

A number of successful prosecutions have been carried out by An Garda Síochána in dealing with motorists caught tampering with clamps on their cars, said the report, adding that one such fine resulted in a payment of €1,250.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-than-500-clamps-illegally-removed-in-dublin-last-year-1.2820863

paddy19

Also in S.I. No. 421 of 2017.

You can be clamped (even if parked legally) if a clamp has been removed illegally within the last 12 months.

5 (e) (i) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked or unlawfully parked in a
clamping place solely due to a failure by the owner or person in
charge of the vehicle to pay the relevant parking fee, such vehicle
may not be relocated from the place where it is parked until the
expiry of twenty four (24) hours from the time the wrongful or
unlawful parking was detected, except where:

(A) within the previous twelve months, the vehicle had been
clamped and that clamp was removed without authorisation;

markpb

paddy19 wrote: »

Also in S.I. No. 421 of 2017.

You can be clamped (even if parked legally) if a clamp has been removed illegally within the last 12 months.

5 (e) (i) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked or unlawfully parked in a
clamping place solely due to a failure by the owner or person in
charge of the vehicle to pay the relevant parking fee, such vehicle
may not be relocated from the place where it is parked until the
expiry of twenty four (24) hours from the time the wrongful or
unlawful parking was detected, except where:

(A) within the previous twelve months, the vehicle had been
clamped and that clamp was removed without authorisation;

I don't think it says that. It says that if you're clamped because you didn't pay a charging charge, the car cannot be towed away for the first 24 hours. The only exception is when the car previously had a clamp removed improperly. In that case, the car can be towed immediately. (I think.)

paddy19

markpb wrote: »

I don't think it says that. It says that if you're clamped because you didn't pay a charging charge, the car cannot be towed away for the first 24 hours. The only exception is when the car previously had a clamp removed improperly. In that case, the car can be towed immediately. (I think.)

Your right, I was wrong, it can be towed immediately if a clamp was removed illegally within last 12 months.

Well spotted.

Isambard

surely that doesn't apply with private clampers?

markpb

Isambard wrote: »

surely that doesn't apply with private clampers?

Private (and state appointed) clampers have been regulated for several years now. They all follow the same rules. It's no bad thing.

Isambard

what happens if someone cuts off a clamp and then sells the car? Is there any check before these cowboys tow away a car from which a clamp has been (allegedly) illegally removed within the past 12 months. This doesn't ring true to me

jimbis

OmarLittle187 wrote: »

As far as I'm aware...
You can remove the clamp yourself with a tool such as angle grinder.
Unless the clamping company is operating a government contract they are unable to prosecute you for removing it.
In this instance the clamping company are operating a contract with another company no governmental or semi state body involved

They can and will bring you up on criminal damage charge though.... IF they have proof it was you that removed it.
Unfortunately I know about this all too well :rolleyes:

paddy19

Isambard wrote: »

what happens if someone cuts off a clamp and then sells the car? Is there any check before these cowboys tow away a car from which a clamp has been (allegedly) illegally removed within the past 12 months. This doesn't ring true to me

As the law stands if a clamp was removed illegally then they can tow the car. If you can prove you did not own the car when the clamp was removed you can appeal.

flas

tcawley29 wrote: »

To be honest I don't think you have a leg to stand on here OP.

I do believe your story but if anyone returns back to their car and sees a clamp it's easy for anyone to say they're going into McDonalds then to get out of paying the clamping fee and just get something from the euro menu instead.

Just gonna have to chalk this one up to experience

Walk straight into McDonald's without paying any attention to the clampers, get the food quickly, walk to the car, ask what they're at, you were in McDonald's, then fight your corner from a far stronger point... If its only a minute or two in difference between receipt of food and clamp time, say you were in the Jack's...

Isambard

paddy19 wrote: »

As the law stands if a clamp was removed illegally then they can tow the car. If you can prove you did not own the car when the clamp was removed you can appeal.

a link or it's your opinion.

markpb

Isambard wrote: »

a link or it's your opinion.

SI421/2017

Relevant definitions:

“clamping activities” means—

(a) clamping,

(b) removing a clamp from a vehicle,

(c) relocating a vehicle, or

(d) imposing charges—

(i) as a condition for removing a clamp from a vehicle, or

(ii) in respect of the relocation of a vehicle;

“clamping operator” means a person who is authorised by a parking controller to carry out clamping activities on behalf of the parking controller and includes a clamping operator staff member and, in respect of clamping activities carried out under section 101B, includes a clamping officer (within the meaning of that section);

“clamping operator staff member” means an employee of a clamping operator engaged in clamping activities and includes any other person engaged by a clamping operator to carry out such activities on his or her behalf;

“non-statutory clamping place” means a place, other than a statutory clamping place, where clamping activities are in operation;

The relevant part:

5. (a) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked in a non-statutory clamping place due to the failure of the driver or the person in charge of the vehicle to pay the relevant parking fee or due to the expiry of the period permitted for parking by reference to the relevant parking fee paid:

(i) a clamp may not be fixed to the vehicle,

(ii) the vehicle may not be relocated, or

(iii) both, as the case may be,

until:

(A) where the relevant parking fee has not been paid, not less than ten (10) minutes have elapsed following detection of the failure to pay the relevant parking fee; or

(B) where the period, for which the paid relevant parking fee applies, has expired, not less than ten (10) minutes have elapsed after the expiry of that period.

5. (b) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked in a non-statutory clamping place due to a breach or breaches of the terms and conditions or restrictions or prohibitions applicable to parking in the non-statutory clamping place concerned, other than such terms, conditions, restrictions or prohibitions falling within paragraph (a):

(i) a clamp may be fixed to the vehicle,

(ii) the vehicle may be relocated, or

(iii) both, as the case may be,

at any time after the detection of this breach or these breaches.

Clamping is legal. Towaway is legal. Clampers are regulated.

Isambard

I read it twice but I couldn't see where it says a car can be removed if a clamp has been removed previously.

As it says " wrongfully parked" I'm guessing they can't remove a previously clamped car if it has a ticket now.

paddy19

"I read it twice but I couldn't see where it says a car can be removed if a clamp has been removed previously."

That seems pretty clear in 5 e (A)

5 (e) (i) Where a vehicle is wrongfully parked or unlawfully parked in a
clamping place solely due to a failure by the owner or person in
charge of the vehicle to pay the relevant parking fee, such vehicle
may not be relocated from the place where it is parked until the
expiry of twenty four (24) hours from the time the wrongful or
unlawful parking was detected, except where:

(A) within the previous twelve months, the vehicle had been
clamped and that clamp was removed without authorisation;

"As it says " wrongfully parked" I'm guessing they can't remove a previously clamped car if it has a ticket now. "

I wouldn't agree, it also says " or unlawfully parked".

I can't see any limit to say a clamped car cannot be relocated.

ButtersSuki

Titanucd wrote: »

So the latest on this:

I hadn’t received any acknowledgment that my appeal had been received when I filled in their online appeal form so last Friday I rang them and they assured me that it would have been received but they didn’t email acknowledgment ever!

I rang again this morning and the guy I spoke to said:

You did it online? Ohh you would have been better off emailing it!

So I emailed the appeals address asking them to confirm they had received it and got an auto reply saying thanks for your appeal!

I’m going to have to start again amnt I?

Think it might be time to talk to Joe!

He would actually love this. And it would make for hilarious radio....please call in.

kennethsmyth

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, the clampers had already seen him ‘leave the site’, so can’t see how it would have made a difference.

Rightly or wrongly - its a private clamper - kick up a fuss and let them know the "lads" will be around later to relieve your car of their clamp - take it off now or lets do the dance.

paddy19

"Rightly or wrongly, the clampers had already seen him ‘leave the site’, so can’t see how it would have made a difference."

They will have produce time stamped photo/video of you leaving the site.

Sadly they probably have that. But demand it anyhow during the appeal process.

If every person caught lodged an appeal it costs them time and resources and makes it less profitable.

They are limited by law to €125.

California Dreamer

paddy19 wrote: »

They are limited by law to €125.

But are they? I thought it was that grey area.

paddy19

California Dreamer wrote: »

But are they? I thought it was that grey area.

No greyness as I read it. Pretty black and white in the SI in fairness. Seems to have been written to exclude all the usual BS extra charges. But I don't have any actual experience, touch wood.

So others might know of any tryons.

Titanucd

So appeal got turned down surprise surprise! I’ll appeal to the NTA obviously but to be fair I don’t hold out much hope.

I’ve attached the letter it’s generic enough and the grammar is questionable but that aside they’re basically saying it was my own fault.

The signage issue is probably my best bet along with the “not being a patron” I was going to be a patron but sure we’ll see

Titanucd

Does anyone know what my rights (if any) are regarding being videoed/photographed when entering a place like that?

There’s no signage saying that you’re being recorded? I’ve asked the clampers for a copy of any video etc. Presume they’d be obliged to give me a copy? Thanks

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Don’t think you have to be informed of CC Tv.

elperello

https://www.irelandip.com/2019/06/articles/cyber-risk-data-privacy/guidance-on-the-use-of-cctv-for-data-controllers/

This link indicates that signs are required.

wonski

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Don’t think you have to be informed of CC Tv.

You do and CCTV in operation signs are as common, than nobody even notice them any more.

Titanucd

wonski wrote: »

You do and CCTV in operation signs are as common, than nobody even notice them any more.

Yeah in fairness there could well be signs. I didn’t see them of course but then I only had one thing on my mind! Emptying my bladder!

elperello

Titanucd wrote: »

Yeah in fairness there could well be signs. I didn’t see them of course but then I only had one thing on my mind! Emptying my bladder!

As you say they probably do have signs but your post gets to the very heart of this matter. You were just a member of the public going about your business and this company set a trap for you. They used you to deal with some other problem they have with parking on their site.

Circle K, McDonalds and the DAA need to get their act together and stop preying on the public.

In the meantime this thread serves as a warning to the unwary. Avoid this site like the plague until sanity prevails.

There are plenty of restaurants and filling stations on your route to the airport, nobody needs to give business to these people.

Isambard

I was there yesterday, it was like a taxi sales agent's forecourt.....

(Got diesel first, then used the loo, then McD's and parked in the petrol station to eat it. Thought it best not to leave the car!)

Spook_ie

Isambard wrote: »

I was there yesterday, it was like a taxi sales agent's forecourt.....

(Got diesel first, then used the loo, then McD's and parked in the petrol station to eat it. Thought it best not to leave the car!)

You mean you left the Circle K to get your McD's, do Circle K operate a clamping procedure, if so lucky to get away with it if it especially if it was the same company

spurious

elperello wrote: »

As you say they probably do have signs but your post gets to the very heart of this matter. You were just a member of the public going about your business and this company set a trap for you. They used you to deal with some other problem they have with parking on their site.

Circle K, McDonalds and the DAA need to get their act together and stop preying on the public.

In the meantime this thread serves as a warning to the unwary. Avoid this site like the plague until sanity prevails.

There are plenty of restaurants and filling stations on your route to the airport, nobody needs to give business to these people.

The clampers get a number of unfavourable mentions on the 'google reviews' for that McDonald's.

Titanucd

You’d have to wonder if the NTA have any teeth as regulators?
What incentive is there for these clamping companies to be fair? My appeal got turned down by them so now I go to the NTA to appeal.

Just say they uphold the appeal. Is there any sanction against the clampers? If not then they may as well just deny all appeals and let NTA deal with it.

Whatever happens my best case scenario is to get my €125 back but what about the time and effort I’ve put in? The stress? The hassle?

Isambard

Spook_ie wrote: »

You mean you left the Circle K to get your McD's, do Circle K operate a clamping procedure, if so lucky to get away with it if it especially if it was the same company

feck off out of that, drove the wrong way across the forecourt from the pump and into the drive thru..... this is the Motors forum after all :-)

kermi2009

Titanucd wrote: »

You’d have to wonder if the NTA have any teeth as regulators?
What incentive is there for these clamping companies to be fair? My appeal got turned down by them so now I go to the NTA to appeal.

Just say they uphold the appeal. Is there any sanction against the clampers? If not then they may as well just deny all appeals and let NTA deal with it.

Whatever happens my best case scenario is to get my €125 back but what about the time and effort I’ve put in? The stress? The hassle?

How did you get on with the NTA appeal?

Titanucd

kermi2009 wrote: »

How did you get on with the NTA appeal?

Havent heard back yet.

Sent it on 28/08/19 and they say it can take up to 40 days so I'd say I'll be waiting

Titanucd

Just got an email acknowledging receipt of my appeal! Thats weird!

Anyway they say a decision by 22/10/19. Good to see theyre really fast tracking it!

kermi2009

Titanucd wrote: »

Just got an email acknowledging receipt of my appeal! Thats weird!

Anyway they say a decision by 22/10/19. Good to see theyre really fast tracking it!

Ha they certainly are fast tracking it! I'll likely be a good 3 months behind you so - have only submitted the first RFC appeal this week. Fingers crossed for you.

Titanucd

kermi2009 wrote: »

Ha they certainly are fast tracking it! I'll likely be a good 3 months behind you so - have only submitted the first RFC appeal this week. Fingers crossed for you.

We’re you done in the airport too? What happened?

PrettyBoy

Titanucd wrote: »

So appeal got turned down surprise surprise! I’ll appeal to the NTA obviously but to be fair I don’t hold out much hope.

I’ve attached the letter it’s generic enough and the grammar is questionable but that aside they’re basically saying it was my own fault.

Jesus Christ - the grammar in letter that is absolutely abysmal.

Personally, I would never pay a private company. I got clamped in February this year - technically my fault and all the rest but I got a mate to give me a lift to work the next day and then after work went to another friends to borrow his angle grinder. Car was there for nearly 24 hours before I got around to cutting the thing off. Seeing the clowns face when he arrived back to the mangled chain and clamp dumped in the same spot would've been a nice bonus but Champions League was on that night and the €125 I saved was satisfaction enough.

markpb

PrettyBoy wrote: »

I got clamped in February this year - technically my fault and all the rest

And this is why companies hire clampers.

Titanucd

So the saga continues. The deadline for a decision of 22nd October came and went with no news.

Yesterday I emailed them asking what was happening and pointing out the deadline had passed.

Today they emailed back saying they requested further info from the clamping company which meant the deadline extended to 24/11/19.

Would have been nice if they’d told me that rather than me having to contact them but There ye go!

FionnK86

Followed this thread for a bit, I'm at that carpark nearly every week getting the Friday mcdonalds and the taxi drivers take the proverbial.

Do they all have airport privileges? If not, can DAA or NTA get involved in moving them? Or at least provide a decent rank?

vandriver

FionnK86 wrote: »

Followed this thread for a bit, I'm at that carpark nearly every week getting the Friday mcdonalds and the taxi drivers take the proverbial.

Do they all have airport privileges? If not, can DAA or NTA get involved in moving them? Or at least provide a decent rank?

To explain:There are taxi drivers with DAA permits.These are not the drivers in McDs and Circle k.They have a parking area behind the Radisson blu called the Kesh.
There are also drivers who use either FreeNow or Uber,both of which run a virtual rank.There is nowhere free to park while waiting for your number to come up.Zone 18 costs 7.50 an hour.

Spook_ie

FionnK86 wrote: »

Followed this thread for a bit, I'm at that carpark nearly every week getting the Friday mcdonalds and the taxi drivers take the proverbial.

Do they all have airport privileges? If not, can DAA or NTA get involved in moving them? Or at least provide a decent rank?

vandriver wrote: »

To explain:There are taxi drivers with DAA permits.These are not the drivers in McDs and Circle k.They have a parking area behind the Radisson blu called the Kesh.
There are also drivers who use either FreeNow or Uber,both of which run a virtual rank.There is nowhere free to park while waiting for your number to come up.Zone 18 costs 7.50 an hour.

It's up to McD's to sort that out, if they have gone in and purchased a cup of coffee then not a lot they can say AFAIK

Lord Nikon

To be fair, there is a wall seperating McDonald's carpark and Circle K parking spaces, and it's obvious which carpark belongs to each.
To get into the McDonald's carpark it's almost a left hairpin turn to get into it.