Climate Action Plan

Boggles

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

When they said that (230k) it was based on having 10% of the national fleet as EVs. They just assumed that the rollout of charging points would create demand that never followed. It dropped to 50k within 3/4 years and then 20k I think, maybe 2 years ago.

There is about 5k now. It will be about 7k by 2020.

They were still banging the 230k figure up to recently. I haven't read any policy document amendment, but even if they did they are shocking figures.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The cost and technology haven't improved at the rate that was anticipated and they're only starting to gain traction really this year. Sales still aren't stellar but the increase is much bigger than it has been.

The increase is bigger they have sold more to May then they did in the whole of last year but it is still minuscule given the targets.

Also I wonder who is buying the majority of them, private drivers or companies adding one token one to their fleet to make it look like they are morally brilliant and taken climate change seriously?

Boggles

topper75 wrote: »

Ha! Leo has totally failed to grasp the Mad Max nature of our dystopian future.

Will he take me on in the thunderdome? Doubt it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbuKlajGUE0

_Brian

It’s been said by others and I think it’s a great example of how his won’t happen.

National Broadband Scheme !

I expect we will approach the climate change plan in the same level of professionalism and expertise as we’ve executed the NBP.

We can’t manage to get broadband round to people’s homes so I severely doubt we will be capable of installing a fully functioning charging network and more importantly a grid that can support the power demands it will create.

_Brian

Increasing diesel costs by 20c a litre will have phenomenal cost of living impact, literally every single article in the shops will increase in price along with the increase in transport costs.

People on lower wages will fall into poverty as they can’t afford new electric cars, increased costs of living and everything that goes with it.

SirGerryAdams

This climate nonsense talk (I'm calling it nonsense because no one wants to do the drastic actions required, i.e go back to standards of living we had 50 years ago) will be pushed off the front pages soon enough when the next thing comes along.

Sure who cares about Syria or Yemen now? Everything must be fine and dandy there now!

topper75

_Brian wrote: »

We can’t manage to get broadband round to people’s homes so I severely doubt we will be capable of installing a fully functioning charging network and more importantly a grid that can support the power demands it will create.

This grid that used to surge when people went out to put the kettle on during the Corrie break will now charge every vehicle in the land overnight! :pac:
The emperor is not wearing any clothes folks.

Frozen Veg

That donkey Ross saying he will drive people out of their petrol and diesel cars.

Provide a half decent public transport service and people will have no issue using it.

The reality is that public transport isn't an option right now for the majority of the country.

Alf Veedersane

Boggles wrote: »

They were still banging the 230k figure up to recently. I haven't read any policy document amendment, but even if they did they are shocking figures.




The increase is bigger they have sold more to May then they did in the whole of last year but it is still minuscule given the targets.

Also I wonder who is buying the majority of them, private drivers or companies adding one token one to their fleet to make it look like they are morally brilliant and taken climate change seriously?

The 230k figure is bandied about but it was officially revised to 50k about 5 years ago.

The 5k are private cars.

Boggles

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The 230k figure is bandied about but it was officially revised to 50k about 5 years ago.

I must have missed that, have you a link?

is_that_so

topper75 wrote: »

This grid that used to surge when people went out to put the kettle on during the Corrie break will now charge every vehicle in the land overnight! :pac:
The emperor is not wearing any clothes folks.

So what's your set of proposals?

is_that_so

Boggles wrote: »

TBF 1 or 2 of the papers have taken it up wrong and reported that 100% of cars will be electric.

That said one million cars in a decade is crack pipe inhaling hilarious.

Their target for 2020 was 230,000.

Is there even 10,000 of them on roads now?

Oh I think there have been a lot of wildly aspirational notions to date but the biggest block in those EV numbers is actually the manufacturers. Now that they are all ramping up and assuming the costs come down 1m is not a completely crazy target. Think it will be north of 500k myself but I'm more interested in the other proposals and how they unfold.

joe40

I have an idea, details will need work but basically instead of solely rely on taxes to influence behaviour why not introduce some sort of carbon limit for everyone.

Sort of like food rationing in Britain during WW2. Food was a necessity but scarce so instead of taxes to reduce consumption limits were introduced which applied to everyone.

A lot of the money I spend on fuel is necessity not discretionary so fuel increases will pose an unavoidable extra expense which will hurt. For really low income families this will be real hardship.

Is it fair though that if I'm rich enough multiple airline flights a year will not be a problem.

If we are serious about reducing carbon emissions everyone, on a global level, must do their bit, it is not ok just to be able to buy your way out.

For example during the hosepipe ban last year it applied to everyone (at least was supposed to) It was an environmental initiative borne by everyone.

Emme

The so-called climate action plan will hit people in rural areas hardest. It will have a huge knock-on effect on agriculture. It seems to be yet another tax on the poor, particularly the working poor.

If diesel and petrol go up practically everything will go up in this country. If another recession comes in the next few years (which it will) we will be even more screwed than we are now.

I am not against taking measures to tackle "climate change". How about smashing every statue of the Child of Prague for starters?

After that get rid of the plastic that pervades every aspect of life today. 20 or 30 years ago there wasn't nearly as much plastic packaging. People didn't get takeaway coffees and more places had proper cutlery. Keep cups are real progress but plastic should be abolished where possible.

If you must use plastic bags reuse them or better still use reusable bee wraps https://irelandbeeswaxwraps.ie/ which are made from cotton and beeswax and can be used to wrap food instead of plastic.

Everyone knows public transport in Ireland is very poor. People are choosing to drive because of the lack of public transport and the unreliability of public transport. I travel by train to work and it is delayed nearly every morning or evening (or both). Bus and train companies should be fined for every minute a bus or train is late.

Taxing people even more is not a solution - it will only encourage even more to emigrate or increase the number of people on jobseekers allowance (because working in Ireland leaves many people no better off than those on jobseekers).

Encourage local business and small to medium sized towns and small cities. Local jobs will make it more attractive for people outside Dublin to work and reduce the impact of commuting.

El_Bee

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The biggest threat to the planet is nuclear missiles

Even if Hillary had been been in the White House you've more chance of finding a winning lotto ticket than the US and Russia lobbing ICBM's at each other. Even Pakistan knows it's toast if they attacked India, despite looking flimsy the house of cards know as Mutually Assured Destruction is quite sturdy, and ICBM defences continue to improve.

Boggles

is_that_so wrote: »

Oh I think there have been a lot of wildly aspirational notions to date but the biggest block in those EV numbers is actually the manufacturers.

The manufacturers will build and sell whatever the market tells them to.

Going from maybe 3-4 thousand cars been sold this year to 100k for the next 10 years every year is not aspirational it's just fúcking stupid.

If they are planning future policy around fallacy than that is extremely wreck less.

Data Centres will hoover up the majority of any future energy production in the next 5 to 10 years, our governance have given them the protection of strategic importance.

I have nothing against EV's or Data Centres.

But who the fúck or what the fúck is going to pay for all this?

Thelonious Monk

Emme wrote: »

Everyone knows public transport in Ireland is very poor. People are choosing to drive because of the lack of public transport and the unreliability of public transport. I travel by train to work and it is delayed nearly every morning or evening (or both). Bus and train companies should be fined for every minute a bus or train is late.

I wonder how it's possible to provide a decent public transport service nationwide, when the population is so dispersed? I think we have more road per capita too than anywhere in the EU. Building up and around transport hubs should be policy.

Boggles

joe40 wrote: »

For example during the hosepipe ban last year it applied to everyone (at least was supposed to) It was an environmental initiative borne by everyone.

There is a slight difference in not washing the car for a month than coming up with the 30 odd grand to not wash the brand new E-Car you'll need to sit in the drive.

joe40

Boggles wrote: »

There is a slight difference in not washing the car for a month than coming up with the 30 odd grand to not wash the brand new E-Car you'll need to sit in the drive.

Yeah I know the point I was making was that these policies will disproportionately affect poorer families while those who can afford to absorb the increased taxes will continue on business as usual.
As opposed to initiatives like hosepipe ban (very small example granted) where everyone will be affected in some way.

jmayo

I wish the fookers, quite a few of them around here at every opportunity, who are so gunho to screw agriculture would just feck off.

Agriculture is the only true fooking indigenous large scale employer we have.

And it is fooking marvellous how many eejits in this country actually believe the hype about how great we are what with the value of our current exports.

And they totally forget that if the tax regime changes somewhere else all those FDI multinationals will be off like a lot of FDI manufacturers did in the past.

Or agri industry is going nowhere and will still be here, so stop fooking trying to screw it up.


This plan is a load of shyte that was concocted because someone in FG figured out there are green votes to be had and Leo the spiv wants to look good.

What will the massive annual cash cow that is the fossil fuel motorist going to be replaced with ?

How will all these electric cars charge ?

Oh yeah we had a great spiel this morning from that backstabber Bruton about wind farms and renewables.

Except he fails to mention about what happens when the wind fails to blow and what happens when all those green supporters start complaining about the planning for all the necessary wind farms in the first place.

This is another national broadband plan and we see how that has gone.

If they really gave a shyte and had any long term planning they would have more electric public transport bar the one they showed up on and the other two.

And as someone else said earlier, it doesn't matter what the fook we do if Asia and the states do shag all.
And that will only start happening when some of those feckers are knee deep in water.

Alf Veedersane

Boggles wrote: »

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The 230k figure is bandied about but it was officially revised to 50k about 5 years ago.

I must have missed that, have you a link?

It's on page 37 if the 3rd National Energy Efficiency Action Plan (2014)

You can download it from here:

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/topics/Energy-Efficiency/energy-efficiency-directive/national-energy-efficiency-action-plan-(neeap)/Pages/National-Energy-Efficiency-Action-Plan-(NEEAP).aspx

is_that_so

Boggles wrote: »

The manufacturers will build and sell whatever the market tells them to.

Going from maybe 3-4 thousand cars been sold this year to 100k for the next 10 years every year is not aspirational it's just fúcking stupid.

If they are planning future policy around fallacy than that is extremely wreck less.

Data Centres will hoover up the majority of any future energy production in the next 5 to 10 years, our governance have given them the protection of strategic importance.

I have nothing against EV's or Data Centres.

But who the fúck or what the fúck is going to pay for all this?

It's not all that clear where you stand. Are you saying that promoting EV is actually bad, too expensive or just a stupid number? I think we need to accept there will be a cost to all of this. Providing it's not done in an extremely punitive way most people will get on board. I do like the fact that there is a plan that we can aim towards and use as a reference as to how we are doing. I also fully expect some elements of it to change over the decade.

reg114

Kivaro wrote: »

Well, it's here.
And it's going to hit every one of us.

Some snippets from the measures announced today, of which there are 180 actions in the plan:

• ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2030
• oil boilers will not be installed in new builds from 2022, and gas boilers from 2025
• one million electric cars by 2030
• 500,000 retrofitted homes
• move to 70% renewable electricity by 2030

There will be a new government governance structure to drive this.
And there will be a new very powerful Oireachtas department to make sure that this plan happens.

Failure to implement these policies to meet the legally binding EU targets could result in a cost to the Exchequer of up to €1.75 billion over the next decade.

Petrol, diesel, oil, heating oil, coal etc. will be more expensive for us.
Is it all worth it?
Is is sufficient?
And what about the likes of countries like India: will the 1.339 Billion people living in that country make the same sacrifices as us here in Ireland?
Will carbon taxes be really ring fenced?

Lots of questions.

Given the global urgency all of this should ideally be done in its entirety and more by 2025 at the latest but that would involve a level of forethought, planning and management we have never seen in this country. Successive Irish governments have put 'the economy at all costs' ahead of any environmental priorities and our record shows it.

1mill electric cars on irish roads in the next 10 years ??? we sold 1,000 electric cars this January, so to reach 1,000,0000 we'd need to start selling 10,000 a month. These estimates dont take into consideration the likelihood of a recession which will inevitably happen at some point when car sales are impacted heavily.

There is also the question of electric car charging infrastructure which is practically non-existent in this country. Norway has a similar population to Ireland and is the worlds leader when it comes to electric car adoption. 60% of their cars are electric and thats at a time when electric cars are still cost a premium relative to regular petrol or diesel cars. Norway has 12,000 electric charge points , Ireland has 1100.

As far as 70% of Irelands energy coming from renewable sources is concerned, this is very doable but it would involve investment by the irish state in large scale off shore windfarms and solar power. Ireland has a unique place geographically on the western tip of Europe, our western coast is perfect to take advantage of the relentless winds coming from the Atlantic, it is beyond insane that we havent harnessed this natural resource on our shores like the Arabs have with oil. But again this requires foresight and a little bit of actual imagination over and above that which Irish politicians seem to be capable of.
Ireland could pepper the west coast with offshore windfarms and yield so much energy we could sell it to other countries in Europe via an underwater connector. Yes the investment would cost billions but you have to speculate to accumulate.

is_that_so

jmayo wrote: »

I wish the fookers, quite a few of them around here at every opportunity, who are so gunho to screw agriculture would just feck off.

Agriculture is the only true fooking indigenous large scale employer we have.

And it is fooking marvellous how many eejits in this country actually believe the hype about how great we are what with the value of our current exports.

And they totally forget that if the tax regime changes somewhere else all those FDI multinationals will be off like a lot of FDI manufacturers did in the past.

Or agri industry is going nowhere and will still be here, so stop fooking trying to screw it up.


This plan is a load of shyte that was concocted because someone in FG figured out there are green votes to be had and Leo the spiv wants to look good.

What will the massive annual cash cow that is the fossil fuel motorist going to be replaced with ?

How will all these electric cars charge ?

Oh yeah we had a great spiel this morning from that backstabber Bruton about wind farms and renewables.

Except he fails to mention about what happens when the wind fails to blow and what happens when all those green supporters start complaining about the planning for all the necessary wind farms in the first place.

This is another national broadband plan and we see how that has gone.

If they really gave a shyte and had any long term planning they would have more electric public transport bar the one they showed up on and the other two.

And as someone else said earlier, it doesn't matter what the fook we do if Asia and the states do shag all.
And that will only start happening when some of those feckers are knee deep in water.

We can only look after ourselves. The EU and most of Europe and some other countries will embrace it as well. The US are the big unknown and key IMO. Roll them into a global initiative and you're a long way down the road. Yes Asia, China and India in particular, are a huge challenge but a lot easier to corral if the other big guns are in. BTW for about the sixth time agriculture is mentioned in the report.

Boggles

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It's on page 37 if the 3rd National Energy Efficiency Action Plan (2014)

You can download it from here:

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/energy/topics/Energy-Efficiency/energy-efficiency-directive/national-energy-efficiency-action-plan-(neeap)/Pages/National-Energy-Efficiency-Action-Plan-(NEEAP).aspx

So they missed their revised target by 800-900%?

How much carbon would they save by not publishing these fictional documents?

El_Bee

Couple of questions about electric vehicles

1)How many barrels of oil does it cost to build and ship an electric car?

2)What's the timeframe for the production cost in oil in 1) being switched to fully electric? I know Electric Trucks and Ships are on the Horizon, but how far is the timescale for replacing these fleets?

3)How large is the rug going to be to sweep the catastrophic environmental damage caused by the extraction and refining of Rare Earth Metals required to build the batteries for their vehicles under once they become more widespread than fossil fuel vehicles?

is_that_so

reg114 wrote: »

Given the global urgency all of this should ideally be done in its entirety and more by 2025 at the latest but that would involve a level of forethought, planning and management we have never seen in this country. Successive Irish governments have put 'the economy at all costs' ahead of any environmental priorities and our record shows it.

1mill electric cars on irish roads in the next 10 years ??? we sold 1,000 electric cars this January, so to reach 1,000,0000 we'd need to start selling 10,000 a month. These estimates dont take into consideration the likelihood of a recession which will inevitably happen at some point when car sales are impacted heavily.

There is also the question of electric car charging infrastructure which is practically non-existent in this country. Norway has a similar population to Ireland and is the worlds leader when it comes to electric car adoption. 60% of their cars are electric and thats at a time when electric cars are still cost a premium relative to regular petrol or diesel cars. Norway has 12,000 electric charge points , Ireland has 1100.

As far as 70% of Irelands energy coming from renewable sources is concerned, this is very doable but it would involve investment by the irish state in large scale off shore windfarms and solar power. Ireland has a unique place geographically on the western tip of Europe, our western coast is perfect to take advantage of the relentless winds coming from the Atlantic, it is beyond insane that we havent harnessed this natural resource on our shores like the Arabs have with oil. But again this requires foresight and a little bit of actual imagination over and above that which Irish politicians seem to be capable of.
Ireland could pepper the west coast with offshore windfarms and yield so much energy we could sell it to other countries in Europe via an underwater connector. Yes the investment would cost billions but you have to speculate to accumulate.

2025 is far too soon as the technology we need here is really not widespread enough and the average age of a car tends to be over 8 years.

Sawduck

God damn crazy vegans

is_that_so

Sawduck wrote: »

God damn crazy vegans

Are they taking over the world?

Boggles

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not all that clear where you stand. Are you saying that promoting EV is actually bad, too expensive or just a stupid number? I think we need to accept there will be a cost to all of this. Providing it's not done in an extremely punitive way most people will get on board. I do like the fact that there is a plan that we can aim towards and use as a reference as to how we are doing. I also fully expect some elements of it to change over the decade.

Well. What I am saying is.

Any governance when dictating future policy needs it to be based on reality.

Eirgrid have said that 75% of future new consumption will be gobbled up by Data Centres.

Now you don't have to be a distinguished power plant operator like Homer to see that may be a problem going forward.

So you might want to curb that a figure a little or in reality a lot, our crowd made it law that they are of strategic importance.

Surely you see a problem there?

bfa1509

El_Bee wrote: »

Couple of questions about electric vehicles

1)How many barrels of oil does it cost to build and ship an electric car?

2)What's the timeframe for the production cost in oil in 1) being switched to fully electric? I know Electric Trucks and Ships are on the Horizon, but how far is the timescale for replacing these fleets?

3)How large is the rug going to be to sweep the catastrophic environmental damage caused by the extraction and refining of Rare Earth Metals required to build the batteries for their vehicles under once they become more widespread than fossil fuel vehicles?

4)How much oil does it take to make, construct and maintain the windfarms that will allegedly run these electric cars? The blades are made up of composite material. What are composites made from - OIL. The amount of diesel lorries it takes to deliver the components and construct the windmills is probably doing more damage than the windmills are good for preventing. Also, it requires a lot of oil to maintain the bearings.

But if fossil fuels are banned in 2030, how on earth will we construct the wind farms to power the electric cars?