Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

kaahooters

https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/revealed-proposed-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-in-towns-and-tax-hikes-how-climate-change-action-strategy-will-affect-you-38224591.html

so, petrol and diesel to be equalized and city center bans for ICE vehicles on the cards.

interesting times.

copeyhagen

"A car-scrappage scheme is under consideration for next year in a bid to promote a move toward electric vehicles (EVs)."

interesting, problem is its the Irish government, if it goes ahead, we might see it in 2024

phill106

copeyhagen wrote: »

"A car-scrappage scheme is under consideration for next year in a bid to promote a move toward electric vehicles (EVs)."

interesting, problem is its the Irish government, if it goes ahead, we might see it in 2024

I would think that headlines such as this would actually slowdown EV purchase, with people waiting to see if there will be a grant coming, reducing the costs to change.

beanian

Nothing new in the climate action plan with respect to EVs
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/climate-action-travel/#electric-vehicles

Casher

beanian wrote: »

Nothing new in the climate action plan with respect to EVs
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/climate-action-travel/#electric-vehicles

Spotted action 153 “Introduce civil service mileage rates for electric vehicles reflecting the costs incurred by drivers using their own vehicles for work” to be done by Q2 2020.
I presume that will greatly reduce the mileage rate that I currently have which is for engine capacity up to 1200cc and is very generous considering what the travel actually costs along with the costs of wear & tear on the vehicle, tax, insurance etc.

Might be Feed In Tariff by 2021 lol.

No Petrol or Diesel cars in towns or cities, get real who do they think they are in fairness, yellow vest protests on the way I'd say lol.

Car manufacturers need to produce cheaper electric cars and much more models before the Government can just decide to ban them, a proper infrastructure that relies less on cars in the first place.

They need to consider the hardship more tax will create on the less well off, we're already taxed to the hilt here as it is !

Proper alternatives, heatpumps ? great make them cheaper.

Electric cars ? make them cheaper and make more models. It's shocking the few electric car models out there.

Not everyone can afford to go out and buy new cars, the Government are off their rocker if they think they can just tax their way out of the climate extortion movement anyway.

Anthropocentric climate change is the greatest load of bullsh1t anyway but by all means change to eliminate actual pollution.

How about grants to Farmers to plant more real hardwood forest that would be illegal to cut ? Make the forest available to the Public, create proper walkways and cycle lanes, look at Germany for example, fantastic cycle lane network that links towns and villages and goes through woods etc.

Proper rail network, proper underground in Dublin, rail that links up business parks or at least light rail links up to train stops etc etc.

The Government looking for the easy way out as usual and talking without thinking.

Nikki Sixx

https://m.independent.ie/news/environment/revealed-proposed-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-in-towns-and-tax-hikes-how-climate-change-action-strategy-will-affect-you-38224591.html

Proposed petrol and diesel car ban in towns and tax hikes - how climate change action strategy will affect you
City centre ban and tax hike for petrol and diesel vehicles
Oil and gas boilers will be banned in new buildings
Single-use plastics to be hit with higher taxes

Motorists and businesses will feel the brunt of tax hikes unless they actively invest in going green. The Government plans to force petrol and diesel cars off our roads, introduce new buildings regulations and change the school curriculum in a bid to counteract climate change.

The plan has a major emphasis on the transport sector. Proposals include banning petrol and diesel cars from town centres around the country.

A car-scrappage scheme is under consideration for next year in a bid to promote a move toward electric vehicles (EVs).

Nikki Sixx

How will all this affect p.c.p. financing on diesels and electrics bought this year? Will the “guaranteed values” for three years time be made sh1t of?

PaddyFagan

The article (in the OP) is clearer than others I’ve read. No petrol or diesel new cars from 2030 on, no NCTs for petrol or diesels from 2045.

So no car sold in 2020 will be impacted - unless less you’re getting a 25 year finance deal

And of course, they may yet back down - I suspect some “classic” rule for the NCT will be worked out.

Paddy

Nikki Sixx

PaddyFagan wrote: »

The article (in the OP) is clearer than others I’ve read. No petrol or diesel new cars from 2030 on, no NCTs for petrol or diesels from 2045.

So no car sold in 2020 will be impacted - unless less you’re getting a 25 year finance deal

And of course, they may yet back down - I suspect some “classic” rule for the NCT will be worked out.

Paddy

You are right Paddy. But this will change attitudes towards Diesels in particular. That parity in the price of diesel and petrol can be brought in with the stroke of a pen. I can see some headline grabbing politician bringing that in sooner rather than later. Also the push towards electric cars will happen sooner than they are saying. I feel they are flying a kite to see people’s reaction. With the recent popularity of the Green Party, all these ideas can be fast tracked.

n97 mini

I was listening to the news on the radio today and I don't know how many times I heard the word "tax". Doesn't seem like anything other than a tax a strategy. No gas boilers beyond 2025. Why not develop a biogas strategy? Gas is clean burning after all.

And then there's no mention of agriculture, which is the biggest source of emissions, but is projected to just grow and grow. Almost as if they're aiming for 100% of our emissions to come from agriculture.

unkel

A complete diesel car ban in our cities can't come quick enough. Several other countries have already implemented it, hopefully we will be next.

n97 mini wrote: »

No gas boilers beyond 2025. Why not develop a biogas strategy? Gas is clean burning after all.

That's in new houses though. They are so well insulated that you don't need to have a powerful fossil fuel boiler any more. A more efficient, low power (and zero emissions) electric heat pump will do. By then these will be smart enough to mostly run when electricity production is fully renewable (zero emissions again) and as such very cheap (just a few cent per kWh)

AMKC

n97 mini wrote: »

I was listening to the news on the radio today and I don't know how many times I heard the word "tax". Doesn't seem like anything other than a tax a strategy. No new gas boilers beyond 2025. Why not develop a biogas strategy? Gas is clean burning after all.

And then there's no mention of agriculture, which is the biggest source of emissions, but is projected to just grow and grow. Almost as if they're aiming for 100% of our emissions to come from agriculture.

I fixed your post for you. It is no new gas boilers from 2025 but there will still be plenty of houses out there with both oil and gas boilers. I would say it will take another decade or two before there is no gas or oil boilers in any houses.

Also I think its great. I never liked diesel cars they are dirty but petrol were not too bad. I do think it will be great if there is a million electric cars on the roads in the next decade and less petrol as well as dirty diesel cars.

onetimecypher

n97 mini wrote: »

And then there's no mention of agriculture, which is the biggest source of emissions, but is projected to just grow and grow. Almost as if they're aiming for 100% of our emissions to come from agriculture.

Of course not. After bribing farmers with €50m from EU fund matched with another €50m from Varadker AND then diluting farmers costs for Fair Deal scheme to keep them in power (here and in EU), there was no way that farmers were going to be hit.

jon1981

I wonder what the plan is for buses, trucks, vans, plant equipment...etc.

125,000 new cars sold last year in Ireland. Hitting 1m e-cars by 2030 is ambitious given the price point and lack of options such as reasonably priced SUV and MPV.

lawred2

unkel wrote: »

A complete diesel car ban in our cities can't come quick enough. Several other countries have already implemented it, hopefully we will be next.



That's in new houses though. They are so well insulated that you don't need to have a powerful fossil fuel boiler any more. A more efficient, low power (and zero emissions) electric heat pump will do. By then these will be smart enough to mostly run when electricity production is fully renewable (zero emissions again) and as such very cheap (just a few cent per kWh)

New developments should be expected to use communal heat pump heating systems rather than a whole pile of smaller heat pump systems.

There's no reason that new developments can't have shared hot water/heating systems

meeeeh

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/how-clean-is-an-electric-car-really-1.3928664?mode=amp

I think it will take a while for change to happen. I don't think ICE cars are future but they will be around for a bit, supply of suitable EVs isn't there. I hope they offer some initiatives for heat pumps though. 10 years ago we looked into it and calculated cost and savings and oil boiler came cheaper. Now if they offer good grants switching might be beneficial.

shopper2011

jon1981 wrote:

125,000 new cars sold last year in Ireland. Hitting 1m e-cars by 2030 is ambitious given the price point and lack of options such as reasonably priced SUV and MPV.

What makes you think e-cars are the solution? Bicycles and public transport IMO. There is not enough resources in the world to replace petrol and diesel cars with electric.

_Brian

n97 mini wrote: »

I was listening to the news on the radio today and I don't know how many times I heard the word "tax". Doesn't seem like anything other than a tax a strategy. No gas boilers beyond 2025. Why not develop a biogas strategy? Gas is clean burning after all.

And then there's no mention of agriculture, which is the biggest source of emissions, but is projected to just grow and grow. Almost as if they're aiming for 100% of our emissions to come from agriculture.

Read the damn report, section 11 is dedicated to agriculture 🙄

drunkmonkey

jon1981 wrote: »

I wonder what the plan is for buses, trucks, vans, plant equipment...etc.

125,000 new cars sold last year in Ireland. Hitting 1m e-cars by 2030 is ambitious given the price point and lack of options such as reasonably priced SUV and MPV.

That's it where's the 7 seaters and 4x4's. Were going to need diesel and petrol for years to come. Encourage people to change with incentives but also realise it's not for everyone. It's a plan they should maybe start in 10yrs when there's a large enough second hand market of EV's and the infrastructure is there. By then we'll probably all want Hydrogen cars though.
It's still very early days in a new technology, policy should be wait and see. Ireland is going to have such a little impact on a global scale it'll all be for nothing anyway as the yanks will still be driving monster trucks.

Nikki Sixx

I wouldn’t be confident buying a new diesel/petrol car in the morning with the way the tide is turning. I think most people will go hybrid/ full electric if buying new over the next few years.

drunkmonkey

A hybrid is a petrol. Can we just call a spade a spade you don't need to plug it for it to work. If you don't plug it in it's worse than a petrol.

BarryD2

shopper2011 wrote: »

What makes you think e-cars are the solution? Bicycles and public transport IMO. There is not enough resources in the world to replace petrol and diesel cars with electric.

'Cos we love our cars... and there ain't no way we're giving them up. We might be forced too but no politician would dare propose the idea! Anyway, we may give up all the cheap air fares first and weekend breaks around Europe via Ryanair etc.

I can't see this elimination of diesel and petrol vehicles actually happening in the way proposed. You can live by walking/ cycling/ public transport in cities but government policy for rural areas for decades past has been to contract & amalgamate services and oblige citizens to travel further and further. To reverse that policy would entail an expensive reversal of that trend or alternatively to leave rural Ireland a wasteland, a playground of holiday homes for sufficiently wealthy city dwellers.

jon1981

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's it where's the 7 seaters and 4x4's. Were going to need diesel and petrol for years to come. Encourage people to change with incentives but also realise it's not for everyone. It's a plan they should maybe start in 10yrs when there's a large enough second hand market of EV's and the infrastructure is there. By then we'll probably all want Hydrogen cars though.
It's still very early days in a new technology, policy should be wait and see. Ireland is going to have such a little impact on a global scale it'll all be for nothing anyway as the yanks will still be driving monster trucks.

Agreed, i watched a program on Indonesia last night. Mother of god they are ****ed, 250m people living on top of each other.

While i agree we should do our bit, it will have the impact of adding a grain of sand to the sahara desert unless Asia changes.

unkel

BarryD2 wrote: »

I can't see this elimination of diesel and petrol vehicles actually happening in the way proposed. You can live by walking/ cycling/ public transport in cities but government policy for rural areas for decades past has been to contract & amalgamate services and oblige citizens to travel further and further. To reverse that policy

Who says anything about taking peoples cars away? Soon you can't buy a petrol or a diesel car anymore, but you can do all that people did before with their cars, with a fully electric car.

jon1981

shopper2011 wrote: »

What makes you think e-cars are the solution?

Read my post again

secman

Some mad stuff coming out of Grangegorman today.....

Atoms for Peace

You'll have to pry the manual gear stick from my cold dead hand hand before I'll drive an EV. Petrol for ever!!
But seriously what about hydrogen, the cleanest fuel source there is.
The environment impact of producing all these batteries and cars is not being considered at all, we dont seem to have learned from the last cock up when a green government started an idiotic diesel fad.

tayto lover

unkel wrote: »

Who says anything about taking peoples cars away? Soon you can't buy a petrol or a diesel car anymore, but you can do all that people did before with their cars, with a fully electric car.

Yes if you have plenty of dosh. Not many can afford to.

n97 mini

_Brian wrote: »

Read the damn report, section 11 is dedicated to agriculture 🙄

Link?

I was referring to the news report on the radio, as I had stated.

Mike9832

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

You'll have to pry the manual gear stick from my cold dead hand hand before I'll drive an EV. Petrol for ever!!
But seriously what about hydrogen, the cleanest fuel source there is.
The environment impact of producing all these batteries and cars is not being considered at all, we dont seem to have learned from the last cock up when a green government started an idiotic diesel fad.

Hydrogen needs batteries

To make Hydrogen you need electricity

Electricity and batteries makes most sense eg EV 😎

Nikki Sixx

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's it where's the 7 seaters and 4x4's. Were going to need diesel and petrol for years to come. Encourage people to change with incentives but also realise it's not for everyone. It's a plan they should maybe start in 10yrs when there's a large enough second hand market of EV's and the infrastructure is there. By then we'll probably all want Hydrogen cars though.
It's still very early days in a new technology, policy should be wait and see. Ireland is going to have such a little impact on a global scale it'll all be for nothing anyway as the yanks will still be driving monster trucks.

It’s typical of the Irish government. Bring in a smoking ban, reduce the blood alcohol limit for drink driving and put the price of diesel on par with petrol. Our politicians love these laws they can change with the stroke of a pen. It takes the attention off of hospitals, homelessness and gangland killings.

sk8board

People saying that they wouldn’t feel comfortable buying a diesel or petrol car today are thinking about it from a commercial perspective (i.e depreciation curve), rather than any environmental one.
How much worse do you think the new-car depreciation curve will be? It’s a silly thought imho.

97.6% of new cars this year are diesel and petrol, along with (I would therefore assume) 99% of the roadworthy national fleet.

Your 192 petrol burning car will long since have been owned by multiple owners, EoL’ed, crushed and recycled into a park bench before we reach anything close to a 50%+ renewable energy fleet, and your depreciation curve will be the same as before.

Lower priced/longer range/volume EVs will be available in 5-7 years and then people have a real choice on the forecourt. That choice isn’t there today, no matter what the EV early adopters tell you.
We’re talking about swapping an entire national fleet of 2.5m cars. It won’t happen over night

gozunda

PaddyFagan wrote: »

The article (in the OP) is clearer than others I’ve read. No petrol or diesel new cars from 2030 on, no NCTs for petrol or diesels from 2045.

So no car sold in 2020 will be impacted - unless less you’re getting a 25 year finance deal

And of course, they may yet back down - I suspect some “classic” rule for the NCT will be worked out.

Paddy

So what they are saying that in 11 years time the only new vehicles will be electric vehicles?

Considering that 70 % of all our energy comes from fossil fuels atm it's rather unlikely that our energy production is even going to be close to 70% renewables at that stage

Great thing coal powered vehicles ...

unkel

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes if you have plenty of dosh. Not many can afford to.

My well specced fully electric car the size of a Skoda Octavia, cost me the same as a similarly specced diesel Skoda Octavia 2.5 years ago

And then the savings begin. The EV saves a good €2,000-€3,000 per year in running costs compared with the diesel. More if you do big miles. The depreciation is much lower too. Maintenance is almost zero

Of course that was with the €10,000 subsidy on EVs. Soon enough even without any subsidy, it will be cheaper to manufacture an EV than it is a diesel

unkel

gozunda wrote: »

So what they are saying that in 11 years time the only new vehicles will be electric vehicles?

Yes. In some other countries it's much earlier. In Norway it's only 5 years away. And only 3 years away for taxis.

gozunda wrote: »

Considering that 70 % of all our energy comes from fossil fuels atm it's rather unlikely that our energy production is even going to be close to 70% renewables at that stage

Great thing coal powered vehicles ...

EVs are largely charged at night. Up to 75% of Ireland's night time electricity supply is from wind. This percentage increases every year. Should be up to 100% within the next few years (on a windy night of course)

Ireland has used almost zero coal to generate electricity for nearly a year now...

trixiebust

unkel wrote: »

BarryD2 wrote: »

I can't see this elimination of diesel and petrol vehicles actually happening in the way proposed. You can live by walking/ cycling/ public transport in cities but government policy for rural areas for decades past has been to contract & amalgamate services and oblige citizens to travel further and further. To reverse that policy

Who says anything about taking peoples cars away? Soon you can't buy a petrol or a diesel car anymore, but you can do all that people did before with their cars, with a fully electric car.

I'd be very very surprised if "soon you can't buy a petrol or diesel car anymore".

Funny stuff, what if a new government is voted in within the next 10 years - do you think all these policies will stay as they are planned..I doubt it very much. Will the 50 or so tractors that pass my door every day during the summer all of a sudden be electric??

Politicians have seen a few green votes in a local election & have suddenly come up with a plan.

Nikki Sixx

trixiebust wrote: »

I'd be very very surprised if "soon you can't buy a petrol or diesel car anymore".

Funny stuff, what if a new government is voted in within the next 10 years - do you think all these policies will stay as they are planned..I doubt it very much. Will the 50 or so tractors that pass my door every day during the summer all of a sudden be electric??

Politicians have seen a few green votes in a local election & have suddenly come up with a plan.

We’re all fcuked if the Greens hold any kind of clout in the next government. They’ll jet around Europe themselves and make us all scrap our petrol and diesel cars.

unkel

trixiebust wrote: »

I'd be very very surprised if "soon you can't buy a petrol or diesel car anymore".

Well it will be 2030 in this country, so over a decade away.

Personally I would have liked it to be 2025 or 2026 like in far more progressive countries like Norway and the Netherlands, but hey, I'll take 2030

Very important we get diesels banned from our cities within the next year or two.

InTheShadows

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

You are right Paddy. But this will change attitudes towards Diesels in particular. That parity in the price of diesel and petrol can be brought in with the stroke of a pen. I can see some headline grabbing politician bringing that in sooner rather than later. Also the push towards electric cars will happen sooner than they are saying. I feel they are flying a kite to see people’s reaction. With the recent popularity of the Green Party, all these ideas can be fast tracked.

What popularity??? They got 8% of the vote. 92% of those who voted didn't vote for them.

gozunda

unkel wrote: »

...
EVs are largely charged at night. Up to 75% of Ireland's night time electricity supply is from wind. This percentage increases every year. Should be up to 100% within the next few years (on a windy night of course)Ireland has used almost zero coal to generate electricity for nearly a year now...

Do you have a link for that?

Approx 70% of all electricity atm is produced by burning fossil fuels according to current Eirgrid data

The EVs I see on my travels are plugged into free charging points during daylight hours. Sure why wouldn't owners avail if free of charge regardless of time of day - it's not like they're restricted to night time or anything

Regarding coal fired - the government has announced that Moneypoint power plant will be running up to at least 2025. And afaik Moneypoint was only offline for a period and is now back up and running.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/moneypoint-furnaces-fired-up-after-shutdown-37752322.html

Eitherway the tongue in cheek references to 'coal powered vehicles' was a humorous reference to all fossil fuels

But no I dont believe have a snowballs chance of 100% wind. Just my own opinion btw ...

InTheShadows

unkel wrote: »

Well it will be 2030 in this country, so over a decade away.

Personally I would have liked it to be 2025 or 2026 like in far more progressive countries like Norway and the Netherlands, but hey, I'll take 2030

Very important we get diesels banned from our cities within the next year or two.

Good luck getting a taxi in Dublin so.

gctest50

InTheShadows wrote: »

Good luck getting a taxi in Dublin so.

Already a few electric taxis in Dublin ?


https://www.nrc.ie/electric-taxis.html

whats_my_name

I wonder what taxes will be introduced onto electric vehicles come 2030 to recoup the excise duty that is currently made on petrol and diesel??

gar32

BER of B2 for housing & Apartments? How will they do that with some of the shoe boxes in Dublin? If you added installation the room's would be unfit to live in.

Nikki Sixx

InTheShadows wrote: »

What popularity??? They got 8% of the vote. 92% of those who voted didn't vote for them.

Okay didn’t know that. The media were giving the impression they were now hugely popular?

namloc1980

Until they come up with a home charging solution for those of us who don't have off street parking then EVs just don't make any sense.

freddieot

Don 't be in too much of a panic or a hurry over this.

Anyone know the plan for how many power stations we are going to build to power all the recharging that will be needed in 2030 ?

Are we going nuclear to keep cost down (like some of our EU comrades that have less carbon emissions) or will the cost of electricity go through the roof ?

Also, anyone who thinks that taxes (road tax, VRT etc.) won't skyrocket for EVs in a few years once the number of electric vehicles reaches a certain tipping point is badly mistaken. This is a money \ tax grabbing country and if they lose tax from petrol \ diesel drivers then they will bleed the new crop of EV drivers instead.

As regards buying electric now, it's perhaps an even bigger risk than buying diesel. In 6 years time in 2025, there will still be a big market for diesel 2nd hand vehicles. Apart from other considerations, the alternative will be to purchase 2nd hand EV vehicles that will have todays technology. Anyone remember what happened to older mobile phones when smartphones came along ? What did the guys making typewriters or pagers do wrong exactly? Today's technology on EVs will look prehistoric in 5 -7 years and this will be pushed by the now stronger move towards electric and the EV cars bought now will lose massively in value. It's the price for being first and anyone buying an EV today will suffer that in 6-7 years time.

If they eventually start releasing (ordinary) cars that can go 600k on a charge and recharge in 15-20 minutes, which they are going to do in 4-5 years, then buying an older EV that can realistically only go 150\ 200k (with the air con and radio off) will look like madness.

Captain Chaos

Unless we go nuclear power for all these EV charging every night then there is no point. Going from fossil fuel based cars to EV to reduce emissions is basically just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The current power grid cannot support half a million EVs so we need to build more fossil fuel power stations and cover the country in wind turbines that people protest will spoil the views.

GreeBo

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes if you have plenty of dosh. Not many can afford to.

There will be thousands of second hand electric cars by then...whats the issue?

8-10

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Unless we go nuclear power for all these EV charging every night then there is no point. Going from fossil fuel based cars to EV to reduce emissions is basically just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The current power grid cannot support half a million EVs so we need to build more fossil fuel power stations and cover the country in wind turbines that people protest will spoil the views.

These lazy myths are tiresome. It is demonstrably not shifting the burden equivalently onto power plants.

https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/the-four-most-prevalent-myths-about-electric-cars-10381

Electric cars is the future and I can't wait to trade up my hybrid to full electric. Never going back.