Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

Gumbo

elperello wrote: »

We are obviously on different pages on the subject of motor tax.

You clearly have no concern for the people paying through the nose to keep a car on the road which they need but can ill afford.

Some people just can't afford the cc rates of motor tax and have to pay even more to tax quarterly. When they have an NCT failure or a mechanical breakdown the first port of call is the credit union.

Thankfully with the passage of time and the improvement in the economy the post 2008 cars are becoming more affordable.And just as they see light at the end of the tunnel along comes another revision of motor tax.

Then why did these people buy the car in the first place?
They knew the tax rates before buying it, the tax rate didn’t change so I don’t see the issue?

Now, bear in mind I laid the highest tax rate for years, but I certainly knew what the tax was before I bought the cars and bought with my eyes open.

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

We are obviously on different pages on the subject of motor tax.

You clearly have no concern for the people paying through the nose to keep a car on the road which they need but can ill afford.

Some people just can't afford the cc rates of motor tax and have to pay even more to tax quarterly. When they have an NCT failure or a mechanical breakdown the first port of call is the credit union.

Thankfully with the passage of time and the improvement in the economy the post 2008 cars are becoming more affordable.And just as they see light at the end of the tunnel along comes another revision of motor tax.

I do have no concern, if you can’t afford a car then don’t buy one....

Too many people on the road with no tax and insurance because they can afford it....get them all off the road, will improve traffic and the climate

gctest50

1 in 6 cars are running on tyres at or below the legal limit

Gumbo

gctest50 wrote: »

1 in 6 cars are running on tyres at or below the legal limit

Not surprised. You see some sights on daily commutes in and out of Dublin and when I’m out and about working.

elperello

kceire wrote: »

Then why did these people buy the car in the first place?
They knew the tax rates before buying it, the tax rate didn’t change so I don’t see the issue?

Now, bear in mind I laid the highest tax rate for years, but I certainly knew what the tax was before I bought the cars and bought with my eyes open.

They bought a car because they needed one.

They knew they would struggle but had to get to work or take kids to school.

The issue is that they were robbed blind by high rates pre 2008 and because they couldn't afford to buy a newer car continued to pay too much post 2008.

GreeBo

elperello wrote: »

They bought a car because they needed one.

They knew they would struggle but had to get to work or take kids to school.

The issue is that they were robbed blind by high rates pre 2008 and because they couldn't afford to buy a newer car continued to pay too much post 2008.

How on earth can they have been robbed blind when nothing changed for them?!

This thread is full of bonkers opinions.

elperello

GreeBo wrote: »

How on earth can they have been robbed blind when nothing changed for them?!

This thread is full of bonkers opinions.

Instead of making the Motor Tax system fair and equitable the government gave a sweet deal to those who could afford new cars and continued to milk the less well off motorist.

paleoperson

elperello wrote: »

Instead of making the Motor Tax system fair and equitable the government gave a sweet deal to those who could afford new cars and continued to milk the less well off motorist.

yeah like I say, if they have their little swindle going where they get all this **** for free then it's hard to blame them for taking it out of the taxpayers' wallet. But don't compare it to diesel/petrol like that and call it a fair comparison. They're literally being propped up by people who actually use petrol and diesel, that is why all the numbers of how many use EV and the prices they pay are all smoke and mirrors and the title of this thread is a total troll.

Still looking at my cruise range and it's still at 583km (out of 730km) and still 9 bars up showing no signs of losing one. At motorway speeds for a diesel (as opposed to city traffic) this could be up to 200km, confirming my claim that it goes almost from Cork to Dublin without a single bar being lost - and I was not seeing things or lying as some people were trying to make out. It's also worth noting how Irish people are unusual to be living in such a small landmass, the vast majority of people in the world live on huge landmasses and can go on road trips spanning thousands of miles - very difficult with an EV.

MightyMunster

paleoperson wrote: »

yeah like I say, if they have their little swindle going where they get all this **** for free then it's hard to blame them for taking it out of the taxpayers' wallet. But don't compare it to diesel/petrol like that and call it a fair comparison. They're literally being propped up by people who actually use petrol and diesel, that is why all the numbers of how many use EV and the prices they pay are all smoke and mirrors and the title of this thread is a total troll.

Still looking at my cruise range and it's still at 583km (out of 730km) and still 9 bars up showing no signs of losing one. At motorway speeds for a diesel (as opposed to city traffic) this could be up to 200km, confirming my claim that it goes almost from Cork to Dublin without a single bar being lost - and I was not seeing things or lying as some people were trying to make out. It's also worth noting how Irish people are unusual to be living in such a small landmass, the vast majority of people in the world live on huge landmasses and can go on road trips spanning thousands of miles - very difficult with an EV.

Was there not a test done a week or so ago where they did 2800km in 1day in a new Tesla model 3. That's equivalent to Paris to the edge of Asia (Istanbul)

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

They bought a car because they needed one.

They knew they would struggle but had to get to work or take kids to school.

The issue is that they were robbed blind by high rates pre 2008 and because they couldn't afford to buy a newer car continued to pay too much post 2008.

You are 100% incorrect.



IN reality the biggest hit was people buying new cars in 2005/6/7. Once the tax change in 2008 they suddenly had a massive chuck of resale value knocked off car. We had people on Late Late and everything talking about how the second hand market was killed. The resale value in cars halfed


Who won on this? well the lower class suddenly could get a newer plate fornext to nothing. So they had to pay a few quid extra tax but they could a car at a hugely reduced price....

If you buy a car at 500 euro tax and cant afford to pay that tax then your a idiot and don't deserve to be on the roads. Plenty of car pre 2008had cheap tax. Funny how these "poor" people all seemed to have to buy BMW/AUdi etc with high tax.....


Take some responsibilities for your own actions, blaming the government for everything is childish....you are suppsoed to have a brain in your own head

The Bishop Basher

Shefwedfan wrote: »

well the lower class suddenly could get a newer plate fornext to nothing.

Lower relative to what or whom ?

You ?

Shefwedfan

paleoperson wrote: »

yeah like I say, if they have their little swindle going where they get all this **** for free then it's hard to blame them for taking it out of the taxpayers' wallet. But don't compare it to diesel/petrol like that and call it a fair comparison. They're literally being propped up by people who actually use petrol and diesel, that is why all the numbers of how many use EV and the prices they pay are all smoke and mirrors and the title of this thread is a total troll.

Still looking at my cruise range and it's still at 583km (out of 730km) and still 9 bars up showing no signs of losing one. At motorway speeds for a diesel (as opposed to city traffic) this could be up to 200km, confirming my claim that it goes almost from Cork to Dublin without a single bar being lost - and I was not seeing things or lying as some people were trying to make out. It's also worth noting how Irish people are unusual to be living in such a small landmass, the vast majority of people in the world live on huge landmasses and can go on road trips spanning thousands of miles - very difficult with an EV.

If your car can is able to defy the basic laws of physics then yes it is possible.....

GreeBo

elperello wrote: »

Instead of making the Motor Tax system fair and equitable the government gave a sweet deal to those who could afford new cars and continued to milk the less well off motorist.

So to summarise (again), there was absolutely ZERO impact to the tax anyone was paying. The motor tax didnt suddenly increase overnight for people, they were paying what they were always paying.

This is the same nonsense that leads to people blaming banks because they cant afford their mortgage. Stop blaming other people for your own decisions.

josip

paleoperson wrote: »

Still looking at my cruise range and it's still at 583km (out of 730km) and still 9 bars up showing no signs of losing one. At motorway speeds for a diesel (as opposed to city traffic) this could be up to 200km, confirming my claim that it goes almost from Cork to Dublin without a single bar being lost - and I was not seeing things or lying as some people were trying to make out. It's also worth noting how Irish people are unusual to be living in such a small landmass, the vast majority of people in the world live on huge landmasses and can go on road trips spanning thousands of miles - very difficult with an EV.

What is your fascination with these bars?
Especially when you've got a more useful prediction of remaining range.
Have you tried tapping the fuel gauge? That top bar might be sticking...

Gumbo

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Lower relative to what or whom ?

You ?

I see people in social housing with newer cars than me. I see people in thuath and cluid housing schemes with newer cars than me. How can they afford newer cars while I work full time and pay a mortgage and they have enough cash to buy a new car????

Zenith74

kceire wrote: »

I see people in social housing with newer cars than me. I see people in thuath and cluid housing schemes with newer cars than me. How can they afford newer cars while I work full time and pay a mortgage and they have enough cash to buy a new car????

You've kinda answered your own question there; you're prudently saving for the future by investing in your mortgage, those people you see are spending their cash. You could be on €150k a year and between pension payments, childcare, mortgages etc. not have the free cash to drive a new car; doesn't mean the person in the council house who choose to spend (waste, but anyway) their money on a new car is better off than you right?

Shefwedfan

Zenith74 wrote: »

You've kinda answered your own question there; you're prudently saving for the future by investing in your mortgage, those people you see are spending their cash. You could be on €150k a year and between pension payments, childcare, mortgages etc. not have the free cash to drive a new car; doesn't mean the person in the council house who choose to spend (waste, but anyway) their money on a new car is better off than you right?

This is the issue, the people hit most by the recession is not the lower class but the people in middle class....those who have mortgage, two jobs, kids etc.....they are getting absolutely crucified


But every budget we have the wasters out looking for Christmas bonus etc. I know a person who will work on sites for maybe half the year or so, then just quit and go on the dole for rest of year. Says its no point working as he is paying tax after that ...he is driving around in a lovely 171 or 181 hybrid Toyota.....


It would be better if the government halfed the dole, stopped childrens allowance after 2-3 kids and put that money into good use....But we are way off topicnow


Lets just say the 2008 and the poor me story is completely incorrect....the only person that lost out in 2008 was the person who bought a new car just before it as the depreciation went through the roof

Mike9832

kceire wrote: »

I see people in social housing with newer cars than me. I see people in thuath and cluid housing schemes with newer cars than me. How can they afford newer cars while I work full time and pay a mortgage and they have enough cash to buy a new car????

Do what they are doing

The Bishop Basher

kceire wrote: »

I see people in social housing with newer cars than me. I see people in thuath and cluid housing schemes with newer cars than me. How can they afford newer cars while I work full time and pay a mortgage and they have enough cash to buy a new car????

I see that too

Probably because they don't have mortgages, don't have to pay LPT etc.

Many of them have medical cards.

It doesn't mean they're a "lower class" then shefwedfan though..

Shefwedfan

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

I see that too

Probably because they don't have mortgages, don't have to pay LPT etc.

Many of them have medical cards.

It doesn't mean they're a "lower class" then shefwedfan though..

Gumbo

Mike9832 wrote: »

Do what they are doing

Tbh I’d have more respect for myself. What I have is mine and all that. Services are there to help those that genuinely need it but the fraud that goes on is unbelievable. The social culture, compo culture etc.

Gumbo

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

I see that too

Probably because they don't have mortgages, don't have to pay LPT etc.

Many of them have medical cards.

It doesn't mean they're a "lower class" then shefwedfan though..

Lower class is not the right word but if your in a position that you need social housing then you shouldn’t be in a position to buy 2018 cars, tax, insurance etc in my opinion of course.

These are luxuries not necessities.

Shefwedfan

kceire wrote: »

Lower class is not the right word but if your in a position that you need social housing then you shouldn’t be in a position to buy 2018 cars, tax, insurance etc in my opinion of course.

These are luxuries not necessities.

Your getting too PR....no idea what terms you are allowed to use or not use these days.....

GreeBo

kceire wrote: »

Lower class is not the right word but if your in a position that you need social housing then you shouldn’t be in a position to buy 2018 cars, tax, insurance etc in my opinion of course.

These are luxuries not necessities.

Lower class doenst mean that they are stupid or classless, its just a comparison of their position in society, nothing more.
i.e. it doenst have to be derogatory anymore than saying someone is ignorant about something does.

Mike9832

kceire wrote: »

Lower class is not the right word but if your in a position that you need social housing then you shouldn’t be in a position to buy 2018 cars, tax, insurance etc in my opinion of course.

These are luxuries not necessities.

It's only going to get worse

Our own fault too

elperello

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You are 100% incorrect.



IN reality the biggest hit was people buying new cars in 2005/6/7. Once the tax change in 2008 they suddenly had a massive chuck of resale value knocked off car. We had people on Late Late and everything talking about how the second hand market was killed. The resale value in cars halfed


Who won on this? well the lower class suddenly could get a newer plate fornext to nothing. So they had to pay a few quid extra tax but they could a car at a hugely reduced price....

If you buy a car at 500 euro tax and cant afford to pay that tax then your a idiot and don't deserve to be on the roads. Plenty of car pre 2008had cheap tax. Funny how these "poor" people all seemed to have to buy BMW/AUdi etc with high tax.....


Take some responsibilities for your own actions, blaming the government for everything is childish....you are suppsoed to have a brain in your own head

None of us are 100% correct but I can assure you that what I posted about people who have difficulty affording a car but needing one is true. I know these people and their lives are a struggle to make ends meet. The continuation of the high rates of motor tax when they had no alternative made their lives more difficult.

I won't be directly addressing your posts about social class, however I will say that it's the first time I have seen social class mentioned on Motors.

Shefwedfan

elperello wrote: »

None of us are 100% correct but I can assure you that what I posted about people who have difficulty affording a car but needing one is true. I know these people and their lives are a struggle to make ends meet. The continuation of the high rates of motor tax when they had no alternative made their lives more difficult.

I won't be directly addressing your posts about social class, however I will say that it's the first time I have seen social class mentioned on Motors.

Yes is it the first time I have seen class discussed, why did you start itwith your "less well off statement"??????

If you can't afford a car then don't buy it, if you can't afford the tax then sell the car and buy a cheaper car with lower tax....

Nobody stopped people selling a Mondeo with 700 euro tax and buying a small car with less tax. They didn't have to automatically go from a 2005 to a 2008. You can trade down in years.

The poor me show is boring.....stand by your own decisions, stop pointing the finger and blaming other people.....

Based on the information at hand in 2008 the decision was diesel was the cleaner fuel, since then it has been shown to be a poor decision. New information is found every day and this means something we thought was good can actually be bad. For a long time everyone said nothing was wrong with smoking, when it was found out to be bad then laws changed.....thats the way the World works......

If not then we would all be still using laws from the early 1800's

The Bishop Basher

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes is it the first time I have seen class discussed, why did you start itwith your "less well off statement"??????

Less well off is, as you say, a statement.

Labeling people as a lower class is a judgement which says far more about you then the people you judge with that term.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nobody stopped people selling a Mondeo with 700 euro tax and buying a small car with less tax. They didn't have to automatically go from a 2005 to a 2008. You can trade down in years.

The poor me show is boring.....stand by your own decisions, stop pointing the finger and blaming other people.....

But the government were to blame for the fact that the value of second hand cars plummeted over night. They did so as a direct result of government policy.

People found themselves unable to sell their cars because they became worthless and they couldn't afford a new car so they were caught.

You might not be able to empathize but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't or that it didn't happen. Because it did.

elperello

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes is it the first time I have seen class discussed, why did you start it with your "less well off statement"??????

You are misrepresenting me there.

GreeBo

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

Less well off is, as you say, a statement.

Labeling people as a lower class is a judgement which says far more about you then the people you judge with that term.

It means working class, I really dont see what your issue is?
Now working class is probably a bit of a misnomer in a lot of these cases...so how about the Welfare Class?

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

But the government were to blame for the fact that the value of second hand cars plummeted over night. They did so as a direct result of government policy.

People found themselves unable to sell their cars because they became worthless and they couldn't afford a new car so they were caught.

You might not be able to empathize but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't or that it didn't happen. Because it did.

Talk about spinning a tale.
There motor tax was X before and X afterwards, this is the fact of the matter.
These people knowingly bought a car that had a motor tax rate of X....so whats the issue? Talking about the second hand car market is irrelevant, why didnt they buy one before the tax changes if they were in the market for one?

josip

GreeBo wrote: »

Talk about spinning a tale.
There motor tax was X before and X afterwards, this is the fact of the matter.
These people knowingly bought a car that had a motor tax rate of X....so whats the issue? Talking about the second hand car market is irrelevant, why didnt they buy one before the tax changes if they were in the market for one?

I agree with you about the annual tax not increasing, but psychologically it is tough in that situation to see someone who has bought the exact same engined car 1 or 2 years later, paying €125 per year instead of €590.

The 2nd hand market is not irrelevant.
Many people when buying a car consider the resale value when deciding what to buy.
Overnight in 2008, the govt devalued all pre 2008 cars.
As has been pointed out many times on this thread, usually derisively, Irish people dislike paying high annual tax for a car.

The Bishop Basher

GreeBo wrote: »

It means working class, I really dont see what your issue is?

The term used was lower class. i have an issue with that term.

You are free to use it of course, although i notice you don't.

GreeBo wrote: »

Talking about the second hand car market is irrelevant

How so ?

For many, a car will be the second most expensive purchase they'll make and most will purchase with resale value in mind.

It is far from irrelevant to those that were affected.

GreeBo

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

The term used was lower class. i have an issue with that term.

You are free to use it of course, although i notice you don't.



How so ?

For many, a car will be the second most expensive purchase they'll make and most will purchase with resale value in mind.

It is far from irrelevant to those that were affected.

"lower class
noun
1.
the social group that has the lowest status; the working class.
"in popular fiction of the past, villains were usually of the lower class""


"lower class" = "working class"

You cant have your argument both ways though.
Either the government is evil and didnt lower the rate for your current car thus devaluing it
OR
Its cheaper to buy a second hand car as the new tax rates have made second hand cars cheaper.


Which one is it?

The Bishop Basher

GreeBo wrote: »

"lower class
noun
1.
the social group that has the lowest status; the working class.
"in popular fiction of the past, villains were usually of the lower class""


"lower class" = "working class"

You cant have your argument both ways though.
Either the government is evil and didnt lower the rate for your current car thus devaluing it
OR
Its cheaper to buy a second hand car as the new tax rates have made second hand cars cheaper.


Which one is it?

I'm not really sure what point you're attempting to make.

I've explained the issue.

You don't see it that way which is fine.

Let's leave it there..

paleoperson

Isn't it funny how this thread started as wild justification for all the time and money spent with EVs and over time it was proven that petrol/diesel is just as good. And no matter how much government money and subsidies are spent on them they are left wanting compared to petrol/diesel. Now it seems more like the death knell for EVs may be around the corner if anything, at least for a few decades, as even the environmental aspects of them are in dispute:

Experts: Overnight switch to environmentally friendly petrol would give same climate benefits as 100,000 electric vehicles

There is really no justification for all those subsidies, the government should stop pouring money into the black hole of EVs and spend in on real climate change action.

listermint

Hilarity ensues.


"The Bioenergy for Climate Action in Transport conference"


You have heard of vested interests..... I presume ?

The best solution is of course a mix of petrol, clean diesels and EVs along with less private cars in the city centres where public transport, cycling and pedestrians should be catered for to greater effect.

elperello

Is there anything in the experts opinion or are we like Michael Gove "fed up of experts"?

listermint

Augeo wrote: »

The best solution is of course a mix of petrol, clean diesels and EVs along with less private cars in the city centres where public transport, cycling and pedestrians should be catered for to greater effect.

Theres no such thing as clean diesels. Diesels should be outlawed for any vehicle thats not commercial delivery. where its required for the weight involved

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Theres no such thing as clean diesels. Diesels should be outlawed for any vehicle thats not commercial delivery. where its required for the weight involved

I'd consider diesel with limited NOx emissions to be clean, relatively speaking.

josip

listermint wrote: »

Hilarity ensues.


"The Bioenergy for Climate Action in Transport conference"


You have heard of vested interests..... I presume ?

Unlikely, never underestimate someone's willingness to echo stuff that confirms their own bias without engaging the grey matter.

zilog_jones

Augeo wrote: »

I'd consider diesel with limited NOx emissions to be clean, relatively speaking.

Yes, modern diesels with EGR, DPF, SCR and probably a few more acronyms are comparatively clean to what came before, but I'd agree they should be limited to heavy goods and public transport until viable alternatives are available.

For light goods, petrol PHEVs are now becoming available: https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/ford-transit-custom-plug-in-hybrid-review/

cnocbui

Augeo wrote: »

I'd consider diesel with limited NOx emissions to be clean, relatively speaking.

You know diesel exhaust contains a compound that is one of the most potent carcinogens ever tested - 3-Nitrobenzanthrone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Nitrobenzanthrone

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

You know diesel exhaust contains a compound that is one of the most potent carcinogens ever tested - 3-Nitrobenzanthrone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Nitrobenzanthrone

I do indeed but I did mention .....

Augeo wrote: »

The best solution is of course a mix of petrol, clean diesels and EVs along with less private cars in the city centres where public transport, cycling and pedestrians should be catered for to greater effect.

Inappropriate mass adoption of diesel wasn't the correct thing to do but the general population was almost forced to buy diesels from 2008 onwards.

Idbatterim

I read yesterday that Nissan I think it was are working on small van ev now to be released in 2021 ... if diesel sales were stopped in say 2/3 years , government would take more in tax and it starts reducing the number of them on the roads ! With the increased revenue , it can used to provide grants on electric ...

cnocbui

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read yesterday that Nissan I think it was are working on small van ev now to be released in 2021 ... if diesel sales were stopped in say 2/3 years , government would take more in tax and it starts reducing the number of them on the roads ! With the increased revenue , it can used to provide grants on electric ...

What?

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

I read yesterday that Nissan I think it was are working on small van ev now to be released in 2021 ...........

Nissan e-NV200

is_that_so

Augeo wrote: »

I do indeed but I did mention .....



Inappropriate mass adoption of diesel wasn't the correct thing to do but the general population was almost forced to buy diesels from 2008 onwards.

They weren't forced. The emissions standard, not a bad thing in its own right, effectively sold diesel as the great saviour. That has turned out to be slightly off the mark. In many cases the tax change if spread over a year is not too onerous but given we'll drive 10km to save a cent on fuel, no surprise at the price sensitivity.

Shefwedfan

Augeo wrote: »

I do indeed but I did mention .....



Inappropriate mass adoption of diesel wasn't the correct thing to do but the general population was almost forced to buy diesels from 2008 onwards.

Nobody got almost forced to buy anything



You buy a 2005 car and the tax was the same in 2007 as it was in 2008. The difference was suddenly a car post 2008 might be 100-200 euro cheaper in tax.


You had loads of people dumping pre2008 cars to "upgrade" to post 2008 diesel at the cost of thousands to save a few quid on tax.

even check the posts on here. Car recommendation for xyz and in the middle you will see "cheap tax".

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

They weren't forced.............

Well folk went from 1.4 petrol Focus and Golfs etc as A4s were available for the low €30ks with cheap tax and greater mpg so the overall cost of running a new diesel A4, Passat etc etc became much more palatable for folk who drove smaller family ish cars previously.