Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

creedp

GreeBo wrote: »

Add in cheaper and cheaper replacement batteries and there is no reason why an EV cant far, far outlast the ICE equivalent.

Fully agree with this and as I have previously said in the future EVs will, because of this and other developments/innovations, become more accessible to a far larger proportion of the population which is to be welcomed

GreeBo

Mike9832 wrote: »

Probably €2,000 a year, but for that saving you have a car that has to stop every 1 hour at motorway speeds to charge and it only gets worse every year

It suits a few of course, but most people are not prepared to put up with that crap

€16,000 for a car that can only do 120km at motorway speed and in 4 years might not even do 90-100km as 1 car user/family doesn't seem appealing

Its a good 2nd car alright as a workhorse

Err, so dont buy a car that has a 120km range if you need to frequently drive more than 120KM in a single trip?

I dont know why you are over complicating this, but I'll try again.

-) If you are like the average Irish driver then ANY EV will suit you, new, old, second hand, 1st generation, whatever. you'll charge it every few days at most.
-) If you are above average, then you will need to buy an EV with a larger range. Our Ioniq cots us €23K with a trade in and does 250KM to a charge.
I can now drive for 2 hours on the motorway without stopping and recharging when I arrive at my destination. I could have bought a Kona with 450Km range but we dont need that range and prefer the larger boot in the Ioniq.
-) If you drive considerably above average then buy one of the larger range EVs (such as the 600KM variety)
-) If your job entails driving all day every day then you should probably be in a diesel.


You say most people are not prepared to put up with that crap, but you are blinkered to the fact that most people wouldnt have to because most people take 7 DAYS to travel that distance.

GreeBo

creedp wrote: »

The main issue people have with EVs is the battery not the motor. Personally I have no issue with a hybrid/Phev other than cost. In this context in the absence of a reasonable supply of affordable EVs, more should be done to promote Hybrids/Phevs in order to improve air quality in urban areas and make more efficient use of resources

I think considering how relatively new EVs are there is a good enough second hand market.
Its not that long ago that you bought a Leaf or nothing, now nearly every major manufacturer has at least 1 EV option.
In 2 years time there will be many, many used options, all with larger and larger batteries and all for more "normal" prices.

Shefwedfan

GreeBo wrote: »

Err, so dont buy a car that has a 120km range if you need to frequently drive more than 120KM in a single trip?

I dont know why you are over complicating this, but I'll try again.

-) If you are like the average Irish driver then ANY EV will suit you, new, old, second hand, 1st generation, whatever. you'll charge it every few days at most.
-) If you are above average, then you will need to buy an EV with a larger range. Our Ioniq cots us €23K with a trade in and does 250KM to a charge.
I can now drive for 2 hours on the motorway without stopping and recharging when I arrive at my destination. I could have bought a Kona with 450Km range but we dont need that range and prefer the larger boot in the Ioniq.
-) If you drive considerably above average then buy one of the larger range EVs (such as the 600KM variety)
-) If your job entails driving all day every day then you should probably be in a diesel.


You say most people are not prepared to put up with that crap, but you are blinkered to the fact that most people wouldnt have to because most people take 7 DAYS to travel that distance.

I wouldn't bother, that posters has trolled the electric car forum for 3-4 years now. Changed names a few times to try and hide. Same rubbish everytime.



Everytime the goal posts move. You say car can do 100km at 120kmph and he/she will say they need it to do 200km at 120kmph.....then you say it will do 200km at....you get my drift.....

GreeBo

Mike9832 wrote: »

1 car user/family doesn't seem appealing

Not as appealing as the Nissan Micra car you are saying people should buy instead?

Enjoy that family road trip!

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I wouldn't bother, that posters has trolled the electric car forum for 3-4 years now. Changed names a few times to try and hide. Same rubbish everytime.



Everytime the goal posts move. You say car can do 100km at 120kmph and he/she will say they need it to do 200km at 120kmph.....then you say it will do 200km at....you get my drift.....

Go have a few cans for yourself

creedp

GreeBo wrote: »

I think considering how relatively new EVs are there is a good enough second hand market.
Its not that long ago that you bought a Leaf or nothing, now nearly every major manufacturer has at least 1 EV option.
In 2 years time there will be many, many used options, all with larger and larger batteries and all for more "normal" prices.

I'm looking forward to the future and in the meantime I'm debating on whether I'll hold onto my almost 12 yo diesel 7 seater with 280k kms on board or whether I upgrade to a 14/15 model - makes 'environmental sense' and will have a more attractive plate but not sure I can justify the cost of change.

Mike9832

GreeBo wrote: »

Err, so dont buy a car that has a 120km range if you need to frequently drive more than 120KM in a single trip?

I dont know why you are over complicating this, but I'll try again.

-) If you are like the average Irish driver then ANY EV will suit you, new, old, second hand, 1st generation, whatever. you'll charge it every few days at most.
-) If you are above average, then you will need to buy an EV with a larger range. Our Ioniq cots us €23K with a trade in and does 250KM to a charge.
I can now drive for 2 hours on the motorway without stopping and recharging when I arrive at my destination. I could have bought a Kona with 450Km range but we dont need that range and prefer the larger boot in the Ioniq.
-) If you drive considerably above average then buy one of the larger range EVs (such as the 600KM variety)
-) If your job entails driving all day every day then you should probably be in a diesel.


You say most people are not prepared to put up with that crap, but you are blinkered to the fact that most people wouldnt have to because most people take 7 DAYS to travel that distance.

Kona for €40,000?

Rip off

Ioniq is a great car all right, would have one for sure, but too little range for me, it can't do Limerick to Dublin at motorway speed all year, it's a 170km motorway car in winter from I've read

The new 38kWh one id have but its going to be €37,000, that has enough range

Mike9832

creedp wrote: »

I'm looking forward to the future and in the meantime I'm debating on whether I'll hold onto my almost 12 yo diesel 7 seater with 280k kms on board or whether I upgrade to a 14/15 model - makes 'environmental sense' and will have a more attractive plate but not sure I can justify the cost of change.

Same

I'll buy when it's close to like for like

Price difference too much now for long range 300km+ range EV

They all 50%+ more expensive than like for like petrol/diesel, besides Tesla which I can't afford

I only do 15k km a year anyway, tiny commute to work ( could cycle) and long family trips

Had high hopes for ages but every new EV thats came out has been a rip off

Hyundai Ioniq for example was €25,000 Inc scrappage few years ago, great car and good price

3 years later its got 50km more range costs €37,000

Progress

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Same

I'll buy when it's close to like for like

Price difference too much now for long range 300km+ range EV

They all 50%+ more expensive than like for like petrol/diesel, besides Tesla which I can't afford

I only do 15k km a year anyway, tiny commute to work ( could cycle) and long family trips

Had high hopes for ages but every new EV thats came out has been a rip off

Hyundai Ioniq for example was €25,000 Inc scrappage few years ago, great car and good price

3 years later its got 50km more range costs €37,000

Progress

And half the charge speed nerfed

Gumbo

Wibbs wrote: »

By Christ, you and Greebo are petty little men indeed. When your arguments go to pot, or your little erections for EV's get questioned your recourse is this level of debate? Then again colour me not shocked though somewhat disappointed that you continue to live up to the stereotype of the EV acolytes.

And nope, sorry to disappoint, no boyracer add ons here I'm afraid, all bog standard.* and no, Mary's leccy Leaf won't leave me sitting. Having actually compared this in the real world with a new Leaf because we were both interested in what would happen and because his Leaf really does feel faster, he got two car lengths ahead and then nope and that's compared to near 30 year old car design with no torque. If Mary's driving the old style Leaf game over. Never mind that again I'm not American so drag racing at traffic lights is not my thing. Even so and I've said many times, but you seem to miss this looking for heretics of your credo, if I were in the market for a hatchback city car I'd would go EV, the new Leaf especially(the old Leaf gave me eye dysentery). They are what they are and EV's do it far better in that segment.

Then again as per usual you and your mates continue to demonstrate that EV types appear to know fúck all about cars and driving. Oh and I hate to break it to you, this is the Motors forum, not the little old lady driving to Supervalu forum. While the early adopter spergy EV types might not care about handling, drivability and pleasure or god forbid a bit of fúcking excitement going from A to B, most of the denizens of a Motoring forum do. Some EV's can provide that, the more tricked out Teslas, even the Beemer i3 and they will and are getting better, but a secondhand first gen Leaf is the motoring equivalent of tepid custard. Which is fine if you like tepid custard, but don't claim it's a steak with all the trimmings.

Good for you. Are you now claiming new car sales went up during the recession? Because that would be beyond wilful idiocy. So my point stands as before. People hanging onto cars for longer means fewer new cars being sold, which means a lower impact on the environment.



*well, a Spoon built engine, but contrary to the Fast and Furious morons belief on its own it doesn't add a single horsepower.

More waffle.

You know what, your silly post fails to get across that I've been posting in the motoring forum longer and more often yourself. You keep attacking posters with silly childish insults because you think because you've kept your JDM spoon built car when most of us have been there before and wore the tee shirt.


Your lack of post reading is confirmed by attacking myself for posting here, when not once have I pushed an EV agenda. I've clearly stated from early on that EV's are for some and not for others but your little mind fails to register that.

You keep your hand in the sand there bot and when I go home tonight i'll try decide whether to drive the 520d, the 535d or the E46 M3, but giving that i'm playing football at 7, i'll probably just take the i3 as its my 99% of the time car.

GreeBo

creedp wrote: »

I'm looking forward to the future and in the meantime I'm debating on whether I'll hold onto my almost 12 yo diesel 7 seater with 280k kms on board or whether I upgrade to a 14/15 model - makes 'environmental sense' and will have a more attractive plate but not sure I can justify the cost of change.

How much is your 12 yo diesel costing you per year to keep on the road (excluding fuel)?

Obviously the EV market for a 7 seater is pretty small!

GreeBo

^

Wibbs

kceire wrote: »

You know what, your silly post fails to get across that I've been posting in the motoring forum longer and more often yourself. You keep attacking posters with silly childish insults because you think because you've kept your JDM spoon built car when most of us have been there before and wore the tee shirt.

Oh would ever go away with your childish shíte. My inability to read a post didn't fail me in noticing your kicking off of the schoolboy fcukwittery. The Greebo poster I can understand as well that's about all that muppet is capable of, I didn't quite expect it from you. As for pushing the EV agenda, you also seem to fall flat on your arse in reading comprehension given I have also as you put it "clearly stated from early on that EV's are for some and not for others". I've gone further and said they're a better bet for the majority of urban drivers in Ireland(outside of buy in costs of new for many). Funny how you seem to have completely missed that bit. So work away swinging your E cock as far as your vast experience of cars and your general ballsology that passes for an argument on this thread. I won't be reading it.

Wibbs

GreeBo wrote: »

^

You're a dribbling moron.

Gumbo

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh would ever go away with your childish shíte. My inability to read a post didn't fail me in noticing your kicking off of the schoolboy fcukwittery. The Greebo poster I can understand as well that's about all that muppet is capable of, I didn't quite expect it from you. As for pushing the EV agenda, you also seem to fall flat on your arse in reading comprehension given I have also as you put it "clearly stated from early on that EV's are for some and not for others". I've gone further and said they're a better bet for the majority of urban drivers in Ireland(outside of buy in costs of new for many). Funny how you seem to have completely missed that bit. So work away swinging your E cock as far as your vast experience of cars and your general ballsology that passes for an argument on this thread. I won't be reading it.

There you go again, resorting to childish personal attacks and abuse.
Says a lot about you.

Shefwedfan

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh would ever go away with your childish shíte. My inability to read a post didn't fail me in noticing your kicking off of the schoolboy fcukwittery. The Greebo poster I can understand as well that's about all that muppet is capable of, I didn't quite expect it from you. As for pushing the EV agenda, you also seem to fall flat on your arse in reading comprehension given I have also as you put it "clearly stated from early on that EV's are for some and not for others". I've gone further and said they're a better bet for the majority of urban drivers in Ireland(outside of buy in costs of new for many). Funny how you seem to have completely missed that bit. So work away swinging your E cock as far as your vast experience of cars and your general ballsology that passes for an argument on this thread. I won't be reading it.

How is it going now Wibbs? doesn't look like you are getting your point across!!!

GreeBo

Wibbs wrote: »

You're a dribbling moron.

While its true that I do dribble when I'm laughing, you've proven yourself incapable of having a debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks over and over again for weeks now on this thread and others.

You've been around long enough to know the basic idea on here is "Don't be a dick"...on this point you have failed miserably.

creedp

GreeBo wrote: »

How much is your 12 yo diesel costing you per year to keep on the road (excluding fuel)?

Obviously the EV market for a 7 seater is pretty small!

What's my alternative .. other than a Model X?

Shefwedfan

GreeBo wrote: »

While its true that I do dribble when I'm laughing, you've proven yourself incapable of having a debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks over and over again for weeks now on this thread and others.

You've been around long enough to know the basic idea on here is "Don't be a dick"...on this point you have failed miserably.

He or she is a mod.....personal insults doesn't matter!!!



I did cop on a few pages back it would end like this so I didn't engage!!! the fear of change is strong in some people!! Best to leave them to it.....

zilog_jones

There's a simple solution to all of this: Ignore List

Edit: I'm sure there's some Clarkson-esque meandering drivel following this post but I can't see it, it's great

Wibbs

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He or she is a mod.....personal insults doesn't matter!!!

They do and actually I reported my own post.

Idbatterim

44.5kw electric mg. 21500 sterling for first one thousand orders in the uk , not being sold in this banana republic ...

https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/car-reviews/mg-zs-ev-the-first-family-and-wallet-friendly-electric-car

GreeBo

creedp wrote: »

What's my alternative .. other than a Model X?

Ah in fairness I did say that the choices were pretty slim, just genuinely asking what its costing you to keep that diesel on the road.

I had a 2.0 Petrol 1998 Avensis that I kept for far too long because I thought I couldn't afford to change it...when I did the maths I actually couldnt afford to keep it!

GreeBo

Idbatterim wrote: »

44.5kw electric mg. 21500 sterling for first one thousand orders in the uk , not being sold in this banana republic ...

https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/car-reviews/mg-zs-ev-the-first-family-and-wallet-friendly-electric-car

Bah, yet another SUV EV...where are all the EV estates?!
Even the Volvo PHEV is an arm and a leg at €90K+

Shefwedfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

44.5kw electric mg. 21500 sterling for first one thousand orders in the uk , not being sold in this banana republic ...

https://www.am-online.com/roadtests/car-reviews/mg-zs-ev-the-first-family-and-wallet-friendly-electric-car

Fairly easy to order in I think, would need to check on electric car forum

Idbatterim

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Fairly easy to order in I think, would need to check on electric car forum

They have a dealer in Northern Ireland afaik!

kceire

kceire wrote: »

There you go again, resorting to childish personal attacks and abuse.
Says a lot about you.

Meh, there's a pair of you at it, tbh.

creedp

GreeBo wrote: »

Ah in fairness I did say that the choices were pretty slim, just genuinely asking what its costing you to keep that diesel on the road.

I had a 2.0 Petrol 1998 Avensis that I kept for far too long because I thought I couldn't afford to change it...when I did the maths I actually couldnt afford to keep it!

Roughly speaking €200 for std service (I change the oil myself between garage services), €570 to tax, €500 to insure, and then there is the usual bits and pieces incl tyres, brake pads, etc. I got the timing belt, clutch/DMF, rear suspension bushings, done a couple of years back. NCT every year. Before I got the leaf I'd pump about €70 a week in diesel into it but now its about €10 - €15 pw except when I do a long journey, i.e. the ones the L30 is not suitable for......

Given that I need a 7 seater could you recommend a more economical option?

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Meh, there's a pair of you at it, tbh.

Your posts come across like a spotty teenager who furiously posts away from his bedroom in his parents house, surrounded by spent tissues and car magazines, anxiously waiting for the postman to deliver his new, stylish 6 foot spoiler to go on his mommys '95 Glanza so that finally the pink titanium exhaust extension that he got for chrimbo last year will have a match and he can go spinning up in the Dublin mountains with all the other cool kids and laugh at all the saps in their electric cars who just dont "get" cars like he does.

I thing we were all getting on reasonably well until the above was posted ..

Gumbo

creedp wrote: »

What's my alternative .. other than a Model X?

Genuinely, nothing really. The 7 seater market in EV world is non existent. At least to the average joe that can’t afford Model S or X.

* new

pwurple

liamog wrote: »

I'm a fan of systems like the Insurance Group Rating in the UK (https://www.thatcham.org/what-we-do/insurance-group-rating/) makes it somewhat easier to predict and compare insurance costs.

A 2017 and 2019 Hyundai Ioniq have exactly the same safety features, when the 2017 model hits 15 years old it will magically go up in premiums due to extra "risk".

That's the issue isn't it. I'd happy keep my leaf for another 10 years, teach the kids to drive in it, let it be a runabout for them when starting to drive, there isn't much that can go wrong with it. There is no engine wear to worry about, seems like a perfect starter car.

Will I be able to insure it then is the question. Probably not is the answer, the way today's insurance looks. We got rid of our own last car when it turned 10 because the insurance just rocketed.

Wibbs

pwurple wrote: »

Will I be able to insure it then is the question. Probably not is the answer, the way today's insurance looks. We got rid of our own last car when it turned 10 because the insurance just rocketed.

THis is a major issue that needs adressing alright P. Whatever about the safety clause insurance companies use today, in ten years time a Leaf, a very safe car, will likely be damn near as safe as anything new in 2029. Let's face it there were plenty of cars in 2009 with very good safety systems and the insurance crowd wheel that BS out. It's not as if we're talking about 1970's Cortinas here.

Shefwedfan

creedp wrote: »

What's my alternative .. other than a Model X?

Really limited, Nissan have a 7 seater but nothing that would be described as fashionable.....a small van with doors


We have Multimac system which we can swap between cars depending on needs!!

GreeBo

creedp wrote: »

Roughly speaking €200 for std service (I change the oil myself between garage services), €570 to tax, €500 to insure, and then there is the usual bits and pieces incl tyres, brake pads, etc. I got the timing belt, clutch/DMF, rear suspension bushings, done a couple of years back. NCT every year. Before I got the leaf I'd pump about €70 a week in diesel into it but now its about €10 - €15 pw except when I do a long journey, i.e. the ones the L30 is not suitable for......

Given that I need a 7 seater could you recommend a more economical option?

How much was the clutch/DMF/timing belt etc? (stuff that you wont need to touch on an EV) This is the sort of stuff that you need to look at over the life span of a diesel to figure out how much its actually costing you.

If you actually need the 7 seats then you are probably looking at the outlander phev for about €40K. It does 45Km on the battery, so if you mostly do short trips but have occasional long ones, for now anyway (and unless you can afford the Model X!) it seems to be they best of both worlds.


And you dont have to worry about getting stranded

creedp

Wibbs wrote: »

THis is a major issue that needs adressing alright P. Whatever about the safety clause insurance companies use today, in ten years time a Leaf, a very safe car, will likely be damn near as safe as anything new in 2029. Let's face it there were plenty of cars in 2009 with very good safety systems and the insurance crowd wheel that BS out. It's not as if we're talking about 1970's Cortinas here.

Plenty people spinning around in so-called 'classis cars' as daily runners with cheap insurance. I haven't heard of them causing deaths and general mayhem on the roads as yet. I though the reason the insurance industry went down this particular road was to prevent lads buying cheap wrecks of cars and staging accidents in then to claim personal injury compensation. I didn't realise they actually jacked up insurance premiums on a long termer already owned by a person.

creedp

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Really limited, Nissan have a 7 seater but nothing that would be described as fashionable.....a small van with doors


We have Multimac system which we can swap between cars depending on needs!!

My eldest is 16 so I'm afraid the multimac is not suitable! The Nissan van doesn't inspire me with automotive love and in any case I'd never get the clan to put up with charging on longer journeys

creedp

GreeBo wrote: »

How much was the clutch/DMF/timing belt etc? (stuff that you wont need to touch on an EV) This is the sort of stuff that you need to look at over the life span of a diesel to figure out how much its actually costing you.

If you actually need the 7 seats then you are probably looking at the outlander phev for about €40K. It does 45Km on the battery, so if you mostly do short trips but have occasional long ones, for now anyway (and unless you can afford the Model X!) it seems to be they best of both worlds.


And you dont have to worry about getting stranded

My understanding is the Outlander Phev only has 5 seats. I would certainly be interested in it if it has 7!

Wibbs

creedp wrote: »

I didn't realise they actually jacked up insurance premiums on a long termer already owned by a person.

Oh god yeah they did. Have a read of some of the tales in the insurance forum. Yes I can understand being loaded on a fifteen year old car someone buys last week for fifty quid, but a car the same person/family has had for ten or fifteen years? I've known a few people who had to update their car because of it and the cars they had to get rid of were just basic transport, nothing you could describe as sporty. Things like Micras, small engined Golfs and the like. They were all over 30 years of age too. I've been loaded to hell too, but TBH can kinda understand that, though last year, out of the blue the premium halved and the broker did say it was because I was the long term owner. Problem is it could double next year. No apparent rhyme or reason to it.

cadaliac

creedp wrote: »

Plenty people spinning around in so-called 'classis cars' as daily runners with cheap insurance. I haven't heard of them causing deaths and general mayhem on the roads as yet. I though the reason the insurance industry went down this particular road was to prevent lads buying cheap wrecks of cars and staging accidents in then to claim personal injury compensation. I didn't realise they actually jacked up insurance premiums on a long termer already owned by a person.

Lets face it. The Insurance industry is a joke. They simply can't justify these hikes without telling bare faced lies. In any case, it's not going to change.
I remember the line they spun about classic cars also. Afraid that people will stage accidents. If they are going to do that, they'll do it anyway, classic car or not.
The insurance industry on a whole, galls me

elperello

creedp wrote: »

My understanding is the Outlander Phev only has 5 seats. I would certainly be interested in it if it has 7!

You are right the PHEV does not come with 7 seats the diesel does.
AFAIK it's a matter of space for the battery.
Even in the diesel the 3rd row is quite small.

biko

Closed for review

Feel free to start threads in Electric Vehicles & Hybrids forum for specific questions in the meantime