Death knell for petrol and diesel cars?

corcaigh07

Dreading the next budget, all a ply to dramatically increase motor tax and bump up tax on fuel also. The lucrative cc tax pre 2008 is weakening and the government have to replace it.

Tolls might go up too.

jmayo

Mike9832 wrote: »

How much will it cost the ESB to upgrade the electric network?

You can't charge 950,000 electric cars on current network

That will cost billions upon billions to upgdade

Imagine a big estate or apartment blocks charging 800 electric cars a night at 7kW for 8 hours straight lol

Government talking garbage as usual that will cost the tax payers billions

Hey this is Leo the lovely we are talking about.
Lots of fluff but no real costings and when someone does come up with figures, it comes back as billions.

But hey they will find the money and there will be no cuts to anything else.

Sound familiar to the childrens hospital, national broadband plan ?

Johnboy1951

I guess I should wait another half dozen years before thinking about changing to a BEV ........ from
https://www.dccae.gov.ie/documents/Climate%20Action%20Plan%202019.pdf
Page 91

By the middle of the 2020s EVs will reach TCO-parity with diesel and petrol engines. This means that when a consumer factors in both up-front cost and ongoing running cost, it will be as cheap to have an EV as a petrol/ diesel vehicle.

Agent_47

What I saw yesterday was a Taxation plan not a climate plan, no plan to deal with Agri (45% CO2 contributor) , air transport and industrial emissions.

FG plan to scare people into electric cars and raise property taxes.

This house won't be voting for Greens or Blue shirts in any general election.

Agent_47

Agent_47 wrote: »

What I saw yesterday was a Taxation plan not a climate plan, no plan to deal with Agri (45% CO2 contributor) , air transport and industrial emissions.

FG plan to scare people into electric cars and raise property taxes.

This house won't be voting for Greens or Blue shirts in any general election.

Climate change is the great gravy train for Governments. Just a great excuse to collect revenue.

I'm not going to stop eating beef, it has to come from somewhere, if not from Ireland it will come on filthy oil burning ships from somewhere else and God knows what the quality of it will be but oh the Government won't care because they can boast about how Ireland's Farming community produce less Co2.

The Government would be far better off to give farmers grants to plant real hardwood forest, proper forest not tiny woods scattered here and there, get other farmers to plant forest and merge on different lands with other farmers to make proper big forest people can actually enjoy.

Ireland has shocking little real natural forest and most of what's there is grown to cut down and crappy pine trees, make these new forests protected and turned into parks with real native hardwood trees. There offsets Co2 if people are so concerned but the benefit would be having real forests that are protected for People to enjoy.

Air travel via fossil fuels can't be avoided, there is no alternative and none on the radar.

InTheShadows

Honestly i think politicians live in a complete bubble. A half decent EV costs what 30k euro?? but yet you can buy a perfectly good car that will last for another 10 years for 3k euro. Do they think money grows on trees or something.

InTheShadows

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Dreading the next budget, all a ply to dramatically increase motor tax and bump up tax on fuel also. The lucrative cc tax pre 2008 is weakening and the government have to replace it.

Tolls might go up too.

I think they will tax diesels out of existence tbh. I'm dreading it also as my car has at least another 10 good years left in her i look after it like a baby.

geminiman63

Just wondering here, where do hybrids stand in the grand scheme of things ?

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

Yes. In some other countries it's much earlier. In Norway it's only 5 years away. And only 3 years away for taxis.



EVs are largely charged at night. Up to 75% of Ireland's night time electricity supply is from wind. This percentage increases every year. Should be up to 100% within the next few years (on a windy night of course)

Ireland has used almost zero coal to generate electricity for nearly a year now...

Any comparisons with Norway are completely bogus: they have a surplus of (hydro) electricity. Their electricity is only 5c/unit. They subsidise EV on the back of a cash pile earned on the back of - shock: oil......which has put them in the envious position of the world's largest cash pile.

the incentives for EV are now being unwound with what's nicknamed 'the Tesla tax'
EV incentive's of low tax, use of bus lanes, free parking, tax credits, free ferries etc have lead to the pendulum swinging too far....

By all means buy EV if it works for you, but comparing the Irish and Norwegian economies is bonkers.

Agent_47

Deleted User wrote: »

Climate change is the great gravy train for Governments. Just a great excuse to collect revenue.

The Government would be far better off to give farmers grants to plant real hardwood forest, proper forest not tiny woods scattered here and there, get other farmers to plant forest and merge on different lands with other farmers to make proper big forest people can actually enjoy.

Ireland has shocking little real natural forest and most of what's there is grown to cut down and crappy pine trees, make these new forests protected and turned into parks with real native hardwood trees. There offsets Co2 if people are so concerned but the benefit would be having real forests that are protected for People to enjoy.

Air travel via fossil fuels can't be avoided, there is no alternative and none on the radar.

Very valid point, only hardwood forest of note near me is Mullaghmeen, shocking poor. too much short sightedness blights Ireland.

Professor Moriarty

Agent_47 wrote: »

Very valid point, only hardwood forest of note near me is Mullaghmeen, shocking poor. too much short sightedness blights Ireland.

Planting trees won't fix climate change.

elperello

InTheShadows wrote: »

Honestly i think politicians live in a complete bubble. A half decent EV costs what 30k euro?? but yet you can buy a perfectly good car that will last for another 10 years for 3k euro. Do they think money grows on trees or something.

Plus there's the 70 grand you will need to update your house insulation and heating.
And don't forget the increase in Property Tax.

GreeBo

Skatedude wrote: »

And that's the elephant in the room, the majority of people cant charge at home,

The majority of people dont have a plug near their car?

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

I can understand your enthusiasm for EV cars but not your apparent blind belief! Can't help feeling that one would have to be a dealer or have skin in the game in some way to be so gung ho, when the current shortcomings are obvious and future potential policy and taxation arrangements are so opaque?

Maybe that's where we are headed but just can't see it happening in the sort of time scales mooted.

Not a dealer.
Can you elaborate on the obvious shortcomings?

Do you think future policy and taxation of ICE vehicles are less opaque??

Gumbo

GreeBo wrote: »

The majority of people dont have a plug near their car?

Some apartment owners and people with town houses cannot fit a charge point or run a granny cable from the dwelling to the car.

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

How much will it cost the ESB to upgrade the electric network?

You can't charge 950,000 electric cars on current network

knipex wrote: »

That's because night time demand is low. Add 1 million EV's plugging in and that changes

InTheShadows wrote: »

People are living in cloud cookoo land if they think Ireland has the infrastructure to deal with charging for all these proposed EV's.

Lads, it will be decades before we have a million EVs on the road in this country. We have plenty of time to work towards it.

billbond4

I smell a DOB company that gets the contract to install all those nightsaver meters that will probably be installed, or they will get the contract for public charge points

unkel

billbond4 wrote: »

I smell a DOB company that gets the contract to install all those nightsaver meters that will probably be installed

ESB Networks installs all night rate meters

It is completely free to get one installed. Your day rate will go up by about 1c from say 17c to 18c per kWh. Your night rate will be about 8c per kWh and your standing charge will go up by about €50 per year

For an average household, with no electric showers, no electric heat pump and no electric car, this is about break even (so it won't save you anything, but it won't cost you anything either. But it will save you money to put on your dishwasher / washing machine etc on a timer to run at night). If you have one of the above, you will save a small fortune.

galwaytt

lalababa wrote: »

I am not happy with my 109BHP car ATM, I really really have to work hard to pass anything out or beat the crowd to the lights, and then double the work beating them away from the lights. Me right foot is f**ked I tell you, and the poor car is stressed out. I think you have me coverted and I will get a 300BHP next time round. And the next time after that sure I'd want a 400BHP. But seriously in what legal/safe driving situation can you actually use all 300BHP? Could you use them if perhaps you are in too high a gear when overtaking? But that wouldn't work 'coz you'd be well over the speed limit if using all those horses in a high gear.

Two cars here : 225bhp and 365bhp.

It's like I tell people: it's not that they're fast......but they go slow very, very easily....

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

A complete diesel car ban in our cities can't come quick enough. Several other countries have already implemented it, hopefully we will be next.



That's in new houses though. They are so well insulated that you don't need to have a powerful fossil fuel boiler any more. A more efficient, low power (and zero emissions) electric heat pump will do. By then these will be smart enough to mostly run when electricity production is fully renewable (zero emissions again) and as such very cheap (just a few cent per kWh)

There's no such thing as a 'zero emissions' heat pump. The emissions are in Moneypoint, that's all. Its shell games [sic]

unkel

galwaytt wrote: »

The emissions are in Moneypoint, that's all.

Moneypoint, the only coal power plant in this country, hasn't been running for quite some time. Thankfully. Ireland no longer burns coal for electricity.

Ireland's mix at this point is mostly gas, with a very significant contribution from wind. At times wind provides 75% of our electricity. We need to get more wind, and we seriously need to get a lot of solar (we have almost none)

Mjolnir

galwaytt wrote: »

Two cars here : 225bhp and 365bhp.

It's like I tell people: it's not that they're fast......but they go slow very, very easily....

Hp dictates the top speed, torque is responsible for acceleration.

Electric cars generally have a higher than average amount of torque so accelerate quickly.

unkel

Mjolnir wrote: »

Hp dictates the top speed, torque is responsible for acceleration.

Electric cars generally have a higher than average amount of torque so accelerate quickly.

+1

Not only that, the crucial thing about the torque in electric cars is that it is available at idle.

The torque at idle in my 118bhp EV is about the same as what my 320bhp 5l V8 petrol Porsche had. So the initial acceleration away from the traffic light would have been about the same, were it not from the losses in the automatic gearbox of the Porsche

In comparison, modern cars with small engines and turbo chargers are very lame in their initial acceleration because they have tiny torque until they have overcome the time lag before their turbo charger produces significant torque. Their torque at idle is pretty pathetic. Same as the bhp of my EV, which indeed doesn't matter much if you don't want to drive over 170km/h

gctest50

Mjolnir wrote: »

Hp dictates the top speed, torque is responsible for acceleration.

Hp = torque x rpm ÷ 5252

.

GreeBo

kceire wrote: »

Some apartment owners and people with town houses cannot fit a charge point or run a granny cable from the dwelling to the car.

"some"
I was told "the majority" in the post I was replying to.

GreeBo

galwaytt wrote: »

There's no such thing as a 'zero emissions' heat pump. The emissions are in Moneypoint, that's all. Its shell games [sic]

What about a heatpump powered by solar?

GreeBo

Mike9832 wrote: »

How much will it cost the ESB to upgrade the electric network?

You can't charge 950,000 electric cars on current network

That will cost billions upon billions to upgdade

Imagine a big estate or apartment blocks charging 800 electric cars a night at 7kW for 8 hours straight lol

Government talking garbage as usual that will cost the tax payers billions

So we shouldnt do anything that will cost a lot of money?

That would mean no roads, water or electricity yeah?

Newsflash, countrywide capital infrastructure projects cost lots of money.

knipex

GreeBo wrote: »

What about a heatpump powered by solar?

I assume your joking ??

knipex

unkel wrote: »

ESB Networks installs all night rate meters

It is completely free to get one installed. Your day rate will go up by about 1c from say 17c to 18c per kWh. Your night rate will be about 8c per kWh and your standing charge will go up by about €50 per year
.

Current night rate is 10.4 cent per kWh (incl VAT) sdtandard rate is closer to 20 cent

https://www.sseairtricity.com/ie/home/products/electricity/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8tOpkYn14gIVorztCh1IQANdEAAYASAAEgIePPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

ELM327

knipex wrote: »

Current night rate is 10.4 cent per kWh (incl VAT) sdtandard rate is closer to 20 cent

https://www.sseairtricity.com/ie/home/products/electricity/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8tOpkYn14gIVorztCh1IQANdEAAYASAAEgIePPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Interesting because my night rate is below 8c, with bord gais energy
Free to install too.

GreeBo

knipex wrote: »

I assume your joking ??

No, why?

Its an electric pump, like a fridge.
Why can't it be powered by solar or even wind power?

ELM327

GreeBo wrote: »

No, why?

Its an electric pump, like a fridge.
Why can't it be powered by solar or even wind power?

High peak demand
I imagine it would have to be powered by solar + battery storage

unkel

knipex wrote: »

Current night rate is 10.4 cent per kWh (incl VAT) sdtandard rate is closer to 20 cent

https://www.sseairtricity.com/ie/home/products/electricity/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8tOpkYn14gIVorztCh1IQANdEAAYASAAEgIePPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

You are paying way over the top.

I advise anyone to switch every year to avail of the best rates in the market. For an average house you easily save €200-€300 per year for switching gas and electricity supplier compared to staying with your current provider

GreeBo

ELM327 wrote: »

High peak demand
I imagine it would have to be powered by solar + battery storage

Yeah obviously it would need battery for night usage, but there is no reason why it couldnt do it.

Heat Pumps dont really do "high peak demand" as they are designed to run "at medium" constantly...like a fridge.

zilog_jones

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah the problem is our most successful indigenous Irish owned industry that will never leave to find another low tax compliant cheap labour site and provides much needed jobs and export revenue.

Sure lets fook it up. :rolleyes:

If it's not environmentally sustainable, it has to change. Jobs and money will all be a bit academic if the country becomes uninhabitable.

But have they thought how people in apartment blocks and townhouses will manage where they don't have parking spot outside their front door ?

I live in an apartment, I have an assigned parking space and I have power in the storage unit behind my space (that is connected to my meter, so I pay) which I use to charge my PHEV.

Anyone who has assigned parking spaces could theoretically get a charger installed - it doesn't matter how far it is from their home, it can be done (my meter is closer to my parking space than my apartment, for example). The problem is with management companies who may not agree with this - there needs to be legislation in place that gives people the right to get a EV charging point installed.

How much will it cost to put charge points in apartment block parking spaces and who would pay for it ?

Right now, the car owner pays, but there are grants. It may cost slightly more than a household installation, depending on distance from the meter/consumer unit.

And they have to be ones that only the parking spot holder would have keyed access to so not your usual bog standard cheap solution.

Locks are available for standard EV charging points.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Imagine a big estate or apartment blocks charging 800 electric cars a night at 7kW for 8 hours straight lol

Most people don't need anywhere near 56 kWh every day.

The national average distance to work is 15 km (2016 Census). Using a pessimistic efficiency of 20 kWh/100km (most EVs are more efficient than this), that would be 6 kWh required for a round trip. That's similar to running a tumble dryer for 2-3 hours.

I can do my commute (14 km round trip) using less than 3 kWh. I'm using closer to 56 kWh per month, not day!

geminiman63 wrote: »

Just wondering here, where do hybrids stand in the grand scheme of things ?

Non-plug-in petrol hybrids make a petrol engine a lot more efficient, close to or surpassing equivalent diesels while being better in terms of emissions (NOx, particulates, etc.). But there's no long term future in these - the ICE has to go. Plug-in hybrids are better again, but still just a transitionary technology.

I moved to a plug-in hybrid 4 years ago, and the running costs are less than half than my previous diesel. It doesn't make up for the cost of the car (about €19k for a 3 year old Prius Plug-in at the time), but it was the budget I had set for a replacement car anyway. The EVs on the market at the time within my budget didn't suit me - maybe they will next time...

knipex

Mjolnir wrote: »

Hp dictates the top speed,

No it doesn't..

hp is dependent on Torque and engine revs. In an electric car peak HP will allways correspond with peak RPM which will be top speed but top speed HP in that case top speed dictates HP not the other way round. for example, if you made no change to the motors or drive but improved aerodynamics or Tyre resistance then top speed would increase, and as a result Hp. (but if you ran this on a rolling road then the limit would be max motor RPM)

In an electric car torque is a straight horizontal line and HP would be a straight lien with the lowest point at 0rpm and highest point at highest rpm.

In an ICE engine torque isn't a straight line and varies at different points in the rev range normally dropping off at higher RPM's so completely different power curve..

knipex

GreeBo wrote: »

No, why?

Its an electric pump, like a fridge.
Why can't it be powered by solar or even wind power?

1stly do you have any idea of the power demand of a heat pump and the surface area of solar panels required to power just 1.

2ndly you do realise that maximum demand for heat doesn't exactly match with peak solar availability.

I will freely admit that this could be addressed by a sufficiently distributed grid (interconnected with equatorial or desert based solar farms) and sufficient storage (not a powerwall) but none of that is available now or in the immediate future.


So I repeat my earlier comment, a modern demand led electricity system cannot depend on wind (or solar) without a dramatic (and I mean game changing in the multi Twh rage) increase in interconnected power storage

cnocbui

GreeBo wrote: »

No, why?

Its an electric pump, like a fridge.
Why can't it be powered by solar or even wind power?

Averaged over an entire year, there is potentially 6 months of sunlight and 6 months of darkness. Factor in the significant cloud cover in this country and you get only 23% of a year having sunlight. Heating is needed mostly in winter and at night, when there isn't any solar energy to power a heat pump.

If there was enough sunlight to warm houses, Ireland's average annual temperature wouldn't be 10°C. Trying to heat a house via solar in this country is as practical as flying by pulling vertically on your shoelaces.

cnocbui

I knew this country would resort to coercive taxation as a response to so called climate change. Glad I am emigrating, as I have no intention of paying for this nonsense.

is_that_so

Agent_47 wrote: »

What I saw yesterday was a Taxation plan not a climate plan, no plan to deal with Agri (45% CO2 contributor) , air transport and industrial emissions.

FG plan to scare people into electric cars and raise property taxes.

This house won't be voting for Greens or Blue shirts in any general election.

There's a whole section on agriculture and 35 action points and air is rolled up into transport in general. You can avoid those parties as much as you want but pretty much any of the rest of them has the same type of view. BTW this post is a very good example of the challenges that are involved in change management!

is_that_so

cnocbui wrote: »

I knew this country would resort to coercive taxation as a response to so called climate change. Glad I am emigrating, as I have no intention of paying for this nonsense.

Will you move elsewhere if you find similar "nonsense" afoot?

cnocbui

is_that_so wrote: »

Will you move elsewhere if you find similar "nonsense" afoot?

Possibly, but I doubt the two countries I have in mind have a general populace that will stomach the hefty coercive taxation this country seems to tolerate so easily. They already have generally lower rates of taxation so even if they introduced the exact same measures, there would still be a beneficial differential

To be clear, I had already intended to emigrate due to the the tax regime here, this new stuff just has me affirming my existing decision.

GreeBo

cnocbui wrote: »

Averaged over an entire year, there is potentially 6 months of sunlight and 6 months of darkness. Factor in the significant cloud cover in this country and you get only 23% of a year having sunlight. Heating is needed mostly in winter and at night, when there isn't any solar energy to power a heat pump.

If there was enough sunlight to warm houses, Ireland's average annual temperature wouldn't be 10°C. Trying to heat a house via solar in this country is as practical as flying by pulling vertically on your shoelaces.

You aren't heating a house via solar.
You are running an electric pump that is powered by electricity that is generated by solar (or wind, or wave, etc)

Heat pumps dont make heat, the move it from one place to another (i.e. a pump)

A house with a heat pump will be a very highly rated house, probably A.
An A rated house takes very little to heat it.

Solar energy gathered during the day can be stored for use at night, irrespective of whether this in batteries in the home or at the grid level.

Your final sentence shows your ignorance on the subject. No one is advocating using solar energy to heat a house, its using solar energy to run an electrical appliance.

knipex

GreeBo wrote: »

Solar energy gathered during the day can be stored for use at night, irrespective of whether this in batteries in the home or at the grid level.

What size batteries are you proposing ??

Or what level and type of grid base storage ??

Soundbites are fine and dandy but reality isn't quite so nicely packaged...

I repeat for the third time. You cannot build a modern demand led power generation and distribution system based on wind and solar unless you connect vast quantities (multi Twh) of storage..

That is why every wind farm in Ireland is backed up with hugely inefficient single cycle gas turbine plants.

GreeBo

knipex wrote: »

What size batteries are you proposing ??

Or what level and type of grid base storage ??

Soundbites are fine and dandy but reality isn't quite so nicely packaged...

I repeat for the third time. You cannot build a modern demand led power generation and distribution system based on wind and solar unless you connect vast quantities (multi Twh) of storage..

That is why every wind farm in Ireland is backed up with hugely inefficient single cycle gas turbine plants.

The reality *today* isn't so nicely packaged, but we are talking about in 10 years time.

Go back ten years and look how tech in *every* arena has advanced and then try to tell me that the same wont happen around energy production and storage.

unkel

knipex wrote: »

I repeat for the third time. You cannot build a modern demand led power generation and distribution system based on wind and solar unless you connect vast quantities (multi Twh) of storage..

Indeed. But that can be done with tech that's 100 years old (pump up water with solar / wind, let the water fall when there's no sun or wind), we already have a tiny one of these (Turlough Hill that's been running for the guts of 50 years now)

cnocbui

GreeBo wrote: »

You aren't heating a house via solar.
You are running an electric pump that is powered by electricity that is generated by solar (or wind, or wave, etc)

Heat pumps dont make heat, the move it from one place to another (i.e. a pump)

A house with a heat pump will be a very highly rated house, probably A.
An A rated house takes very little to heat it.

Solar energy gathered during the day can be stored for use at night, irrespective of whether this in batteries in the home or at the grid level.

Your final sentence shows your ignorance on the subject. No one is advocating using solar energy to heat a house, its using solar energy to run an electrical appliance.

I know a heat pump doesn't heat, I just went for brevity. There isn't enough sunlight to generate the electricity to run a heat pump for most of a year, at the times it is most needed, given you need about 2.6 MW a year to run one.

The grid doesn't store electricity unless you want to flood some large scenic valleys. The idea that feeding excess domestic solar energy into a grid is 'storage' is ridiculous.

Most of the houses and accommodation that will ever exist in this country, already exist. Useless blather about passive houses and new houses is just as much of a eco-ego stroking sop as thinking the grid stores energy.

Danzy

cnocbui wrote: »

I know a heat pump doesn't heat, I just went for brevity. There isn't enough sunlight to generate the electricity to run a heat pump for most of a year, at the times it is most needed, given you need about 2.6 MW a year to run one.

The grid doesn't store electricity unless you want to flood some large scenic valleys. The idea that feeding excess domestic solar energy into a grid is 'storage' is ridiculous.

Most of the houses and accommodation that will ever exist in this country, already exist. Useless blather about passive houses and new houses is just as much of a eco-ego stroking sop as thinking the grid stores energy.

It is obvious that you are trolling or you genuinely do not have a notion.

Johnboy1951

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. But that can be done with tech that's 100 years old (pump up water with solar / wind, let the water fall when there's no sun or wind), we already have a tiny one of these (Turlough Hill that's been running for the guts of 50 years now)

Maybe this coming emphasis on electricity will get this idea off the ground

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ireland

GreeBo

cnocbui wrote: »

I know a heat pump doesn't heat, I just went for brevity. There isn't enough sunlight to generate the electricity to run a heat pump for most of a year, at the times it is most needed, given you need about 2.6 MW a year to run one.

But there is more than needed during the other half of the year, right?

cnocbui wrote: »

The grid doesn't store electricity unless you want to flood some large scenic valleys. The idea that feeding excess domestic solar energy into a grid is 'storage' is ridiculous.

Better tell the lads in Turlough Hill.

cnocbui wrote: »

Most of the houses and accommodation that will ever exist in this country, already exist. Useless blather about passive houses and new houses is just as much of a eco-ego stroking sop as thinking the grid stores energy.

Indeed they do. And they are all going to get renovated to bring them up to standards over the next few decades.