Housing crisis- the elephant in the room

ILoveYourVibes

Stephen15 wrote: »

I never said immigrants are taking our jobs.

You did and you say it again in this post.

You are living in the 1800s. There are entire businesses that Irish run that cater to the immigrant market.

Tescos have entire polish sections.

Immigrants CREATE employment.

They are also in highly skilled jobs or often in management.

The entire gambling industry is propped up by the Asian community! It would quite frankly collapse without them!

Russians and Polish throw money around like its snow!

Nigerians always have the latest fashion gear etc.

And no they don't live 8 to a bed.

Stephen15 wrote: »

That's the type of thinking that sees people solely as economic units and not as individuals with families to feed and lives to live.

I never said immigrants are taking our jobs. I said they are willing to put up with poor pay and conditions whereas the Irish want secure conditions and decent pay. In many cases immigrants are happy to work as much overtime as possible in low wage jobs and share the one room with five other immigrants in the same boat so they can split the rent between.

In these cases the only expenses they have are food and rent (which is split up) which is bought as cheaply as possible in the likes of Lidl, Aldi or ethnic shops. This is so they can send money home to their families and with the ultimate goal of going back to their country of origin. As a result Irish people are willing to be unemployed and avoid these conditions as they are resound to the fact they can't compete with immigrants.

The other issue is how can hard pressed Irish families compete rent wise with a number of forgeiners trying to rent the one house/flat all splitting the rent.

I reckon they are here to stay.

They Irish now boy!

ILoveYourVibes

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

You have quite the insight into other people’s minds there. You could maybe do it on stage.

Don't give me any credit. I had it told to me by very great people. I had nothing to do with it.

I have no talent for the stage.

InTheShadows

MrFresh wrote: »

It's about time somebody brought up immigration. It's never talked about.

No politician will touch it with a barge poll in fear of the liberals and lefties attacking them. They would be destroyed by state media RTE and special interest media like Newstalk within days. These people have pundits at the ready to turn anyone who does question it into fully paid up members of the KKK.

FG want to increase the population by a million within a few short years where do people think these lads and lassies will be coming from flipping Harvard?

corner of hells

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Tescos have entire polish sections.

They certainly do.

They have floor polish sections, shoe polish ones and I believe French polish ones too.

ILoveYourVibes

InTheShadows wrote: »

where do people think these lads and lassies will be coming from flipping Harvard?

They're smarter than me anyway.

Stephen15

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are living in the 1800s. There are entire businesses that Irish run that cater to the immigrant market.

Tescos have entire polish sections.

They are mostly run by immigrants for immigrants such as Polish or Halal shops. Tesco would still be in business from native Irish customers even if they didn't have a Polish section.

Immigrants CREATE employment.

They are also in highly skilled jobs or often in management.

And that is why I'm in favour of controlled legal immigration and would like to see an Australian style points system where immigrants that fulfill the nessecary skills and come and work in the jobs where there is a shortage of skilled Irish workers.

Immigration should be used to benefit the host country not the immigrants themselves but that's not what's happening here.

The entire gambling industry is propped up by the Asian community! It would quite frankly collapse without them!

Would be no loss. Gambling is a scourge on society that prays on the poor, weak and vulnerable.

Russians and Polish throw money around like its snow!

Nigerians always have the latest fashion gear etc.

Not what I've seen from any Poles I've come across most I've come across are looking to save as much money as possible for when they go back to Poland on holidays or permanently. Also the Polish economy is growing anyway so more are staying at home.

I'd say most of the latest fashion gear the Nigerians are wearing is obtained on the black market.

ILoveYourVibes

corner of hells wrote: »

They certainly do.

They have floor polish sections, shoe polish ones and I believe French polish ones too.

OMG EVERY TIME I google polish i get that problem. I was trying to google polish saddles ...got saddle polish. :rolleyes:

Stephen15

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They're smarter than me anyway.

Same here I mean they're excellent at finding new creative ways at scamming the system.

ILoveYourVibes

Stephen15 wrote: »

They are mostly run by immigrants for immigrants such as Polish or Halal shops. Tesco would still be in business from native Irish customers even if they didn't have a Polish section.



And that is why I'm in favour of controlled legal immigration and would like to see an Australian style points system where immigrants that fulfill the nessecary skills and come and work in the jobs where there is a shortage of skilled Irish workers.

Immigration should be used to benefit the host country not the immigrants themselves but that's not what's happening here.



Would be no loss. Gambling is a scourge on society that prays on the poor, weak and vulnerable.





Not what I've seen from any Poles I've come across most I've come across are looking to save as much money as possible for when they go back to Poland on holidays or permanently. Also the Polish economy is growing anyway so more are staying at home.

I'd say most of the latest fashion gear the Nigerians are wearing is obtained on the black market.

Newp designer gear from brown thomas mate ..the real mccoy.

Gambling and gaming industry is like any other.

Poles Russians always the latest phones the latest cars. Spend a lot on hobbies too actually.

I think it's us Irish who are tight with our money.

ILoveYourVibes

Stephen15 wrote: »

Same here I mean they're excellent at finding new creative ways at scamming the system.

Awesome I am a quick study! :cool:

ampleforth

ClintPower wrote: »

I'd very much approve of the dole being replaced with food vouchers for anyone below a certain age if it has become apparent that they view welfare as a career option.

Have you ever been on the dole? Do you actually know how it feels to be in that kind of system? I assume not...but please correct me if I am wrong.

The Satanist

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Immigrants CREATE employment.


Nigerians always have the latest fashion gear etc.

I didn't realise we had knock-off tracksuit factories in Ireland.

ILoveYourVibes

The Satanist wrote: »

I didn't realise we had knock-off tracksuit factories in Ireland.

Yeah dunnes. You never heard of it?:)

The Satanist

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yeah dunnes. You never heard of it?:)

"Latest fashion gear"

Get the ****

ILoveYourVibes

The Satanist wrote: »

"Latest fashion gear"

Get the ****

Where do you people LIVE??

Honestly it's like this weird bubble.

YES nigerians and honestly most africans spend huge amounts on fashion.

corner of hells

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You really think you are about to become a refugee due to immigration??

Besides you CAN FLEE to any country in EUROPE.

Shhhh , let him rant.
He's becoming entertaining.

ILoveYourVibes

I dunno why we have states anyway ...i fancy being libertarian for a while.

the elephant in the room is paddy is addicted to property gambling and not paying his debts and paddys govt knows theres votes in them thar property booms

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

the elephant in the room is paddy is addicted to property gambling and not paying his debts and paddys govt knows theres votes in them thar property booms

Ah but paddy is great craic. :pac:

gw80

Wow, the self hate in this thread from some posters is saddening,

Yurt2

ClintPower wrote: »

Leo said something similar. It's highly subjective.

There's little to no Chinese welfare warriors.

The same cant be said for East Europeans of Roma extraction.

Plenty of Chinese work in the black economy. You think all the people in the kitchens of Chinese restaurants have pps numbers and pay their payroll taxes? Sure, they're not on the scratch, but they still use the roads, send their kids to school etc.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You don't care about declining workers rights unless you can associate them with immigration.

It's yours to use or put down as you see fit. You OWN them.

Immigrants are somehow simultaneously stealing our jobs and our dole money.

Migrants CREATE jobs. Their taxes subsidize hospitals, schools roads etc.

Immigrants are consumers they support Irish business. They BUY things. They go out to the pub. They go out to dinner.

The World Bank has estimated that increasing immigration by a margin equal to 3% of the workforce in developed countries would generate global economic gains of $356bn (€327bn).


One of the most frequent objections to immigration is that immigrants take jobs from locals. This only makes sense if you think that an economy has a fixed number of jobs to be shared around.



Economies don’t work like that. Economies are dynamic and immigrants enhance that dynamism.


What REALLY drained money from our public services and held down our wages was the banking crash. AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

But that does not suit some people's argument.

And WTF don't believe me. Meh no biggie.

I am just gonna sit back and watch you rant about immigration while i live my sweet life.

But I warn you. Irish people don't GIVE A ****.

You're quite correct that the banking crash repercussions are still being felt.

What you haven't mentioned is that all the houses NAMA disposed of were sold to non-Irish buyers (to put it politely).
Add to that the fact that little to no housing was built for almost a decade - and we have a serious housing shortage.

I've said repeatedly on here that I'm in favour of taking in refugees.
Having said that - I'm not in favour of putting said refugees on a pedestal above the Irish people. So, the next time Zappone feels an urge to "bring them all home", or Leo feels the need for praise from Mama Merkel, they need to consider that, in reality, for every refugee that is awarded housing, an Irish person is displaced - unless theres some magic tap they can turn on to produce houses out of thin air....

I'm also in favour of limited Immigration. But I'm not about to pretend that every Immigrant family/group who rent a house doesn't leave one less house for the Irish to rent.

The solution to the housing crises is to build more housing - but let's not pretend that even more people looking to rent doesn't affect the market.

And that's before we begin thinking about those who abuse the system....

suicide_circus

Yurt! wrote: »

Plenty of Chinese work in the black economy. You think all the people in the kitchens of Chinese restaurants have pps numbers and pay their payroll taxes? Sure, they're not on the scratch, but they still use the roads, send their kids to school etc.

i work with a few chinese people, they all have nixers. A huge gig is buying real (not counterfeit) luxury products here and flogging them on the sly at a huge profit in china where there are massive import duties on luxury goods.

gordongekko

MrFresh wrote: »

It's about time somebody brought up immigration. It's never talked about.

Fair point. We need more immigration as there is a shortage of skilled construction workers to build the houses the entitlement society demand for free

newport2

InTheShadows wrote: »

No politician will touch it with a barge poll in fear of the liberals and lefties attacking them. They would be destroyed by state media RTE and special interest media like Newstalk within days. These people have pundits at the ready to turn anyone who does question it into fully paid up members of the KKK.

FG want to increase the population by a million within a few short years where do people think these lads and lassies will be coming from flipping Harvard?

The UK politicians had the courage to bring up immigration and put it to the people in a referendum 3 years ago. It's going great I hear.

mariaalice

Yurt! wrote: »

Plenty of Chinese work in the black economy. You think all the people in the kitchens of Chinese restaurants have pps numbers and pay their payroll taxes? Sure, they're not on the scratch, but they still use the roads, send their kids to school etc.

How do they send their chidlren to school without a pps number? or how do they use medical services without a pps number?

suicide_circus

said it before, immigrants are not the cause of the housing crisis but they do have an impact on supply, how could they not? but what are you gonna do? have no immigrants? to paraphrase a woman on BBC Question Time, who is gonna deliver my Deliveroo?

Bigbagofcans

mariaalice wrote: »

How do they send their chidlren to school without a pps number? or how do they use medical services without a pps number?

Same way Irish illegal immigrants in America are sending their children to school - they don't need a social security number.

gibgodsman

The thing I find funny about all of this, is an Irish man complaining about Immigration, how Ironic is that? We are literally known as a people for immigrating to other countries, yet we try complain when people do it to ours? Get over it, we have enough of our own freeloaders, the 5% or so additional from other countries ain't making a big dent.

The_Brood

I am technically an immigrant. I believe building higher apartment buildings, affordable living apartments, is much more important than anything else for the housing crisis.

However I will say I find it utterly insane beyond my wildest dreams that Ireland gives doe money to non-nationals. Healthcare is understandable, it should be a human right everywhere.

But for masses and masses in Eastern Europe, being on the doe in Ireland is incredibly more profitable than working hard and even being middle class in some countries. They say money doesnt grow on trees...but for these folks, you come to Ireland, you don't work, and are handed way more money than you can dream about back home working. It is like a miracle, like paradise. I have no idea at all how many other countries do the same thing, but yeah I can promise you many foreigners cannot believe their fortune to be handed so much money for actually not working. Its like rubbing a magic lamp.

The issue is who pays for all that...

mariaalice

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Same way Irish illegal immigrants in America are sending their children to school - they don't need a social security number.

You can not enrole children in a school here without a lot of rigmarole its not like the US, which also make me think they do not want to sort the illegal immigrant issue at all the cheap labor is too convenient.

Cordell

I am an immigrant but I fully support welfare restrictions and even deportation for the work shy EU lads. Also, I fully support discussing the issue at the mainstream media and politics level, even if I don't agree that the immigrants are the main cause of the housing crisis. But if this is brushed away and shut down as xenophobic/racist crap then it will continue in the fringe politics and media and this is how we get into troubles like brexit and trump.

And if you and the polish lad are in a race to the bottom, then chucking him away will not solve your problem.

is_that_so

The_Brood wrote: »

I am technically an immigrant. I believe building higher apartment buildings, affordable living apartments, is much more important than anything else for the housing crisis.

However I will say I find it utterly insane beyond my wildest dreams that Ireland gives doe money to non-nationals. Healthcare is understandable, it should be a human right everywhere.

But for masses and masses in Eastern Europe, being on the doe in Ireland is incredibly more profitable than working hard and even being middle class in some countries. They say money doesnt grow on trees...but for these folks, you come to Ireland, you don't work, and are handed way more money than you can dream about back home working. It is like a miracle, like paradise. I have no idea at all how many other countries do the same thing, but yeah I can promise you many foreigners cannot believe their fortune to be handed so much money for actually not working. Its like rubbing a magic lamp.

The issue is who pays for all that...

Do you have any links to anything that supports this? To claim you need to have been earning.

Jupiter Mulligan

is_that_so wrote: »

Do you have any links to anything that supports this? To claim you need to have been earning.

Why not look up the Razneas case that I mentioned earlier?

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Do you have any links to anything that supports this? To claim you need to have been earning.

Do you mean jobseeker's benefit? Not the same for jobseeker's allowance. From citizen's info:

"To get Jobseeker's Allowance you must be aged over 18 and under 66. You must also:

Be unemployed (you must be fully unemployed or unemployed for at least 4 days out of 7)
Be capable of work
Be available for full-time work and genuinely seeking work
Satisfy the means test
Meet the habitual residence condition"

MrFresh

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

Why not look up the Razneas case that I mentioned earlier?

Do you mean the case where the guy has had both legs amputated and he and his family have been refused social assistance? Isn't that the opposite of the free lunch theory espoused above?

Graham

The_Brood wrote: »

But for masses and masses in Eastern Europe, being on the doe in Ireland is incredibly more profitable than working hard and even being middle class in some countries. They say money doesnt grow on trees...but for these folks, you come to Ireland, you don't work, and are handed way more money than you can dream about back home working.

Employment rates are higher amongst Eastern European immigrants than Irish Nationals.

uck51js9zml2yt

I was expecting a thread about elephants.

vriesmays

gibgodsman wrote: »

The thing I find funny about all of this, is an Irish man complaining about Immigration, how Ironic is that? We are literally known as a people for immigrating to other countries,

Exactly, look at all the Irish who moved to Nigeria during the famine or Georgia in the 1980s.

belfe

ClintPower wrote: »

So cards on the table regarding a few comments here and there people have made on other threads.

To anyone who has a maths ability beyond senior infants, a contributory factor to the shortage of affordable rental property in urban areas in Ireland is migration. It isn't the only cause, but it is the main one, yet not a single one of the politicians who do the loudest ranting about the housing crisis will touch it with a barge pole. Solidarity, PBP, Sinn Fein, they don't want to know. To admit the problem isn't to be racist to anyone- I don't hold a grudge towards anyone for coming here to improve their lot. But at a time of essentially national emergency, the crisis could be cooled nearly overnight with a few simple measures

- temporarily suspend EU free movement. Initiate a system of work permits- migrants are admitted according to their experience/ intended work sector. People are allowed in for specified skill shortage areas like construction and IT. People are not allowed in to work in warehouses for 9.80 an hour. End result- less rental pressure and employers can no longer take the piss with rates offered.

- pull out of any EU refugee relocation scheme that involves us providing housing out of our own taxes. A country that has people on social housing lists for 12 years that suddenly realises it can find Syrians a permanent home within 3 months of arrival is a sick society.

- audit the welfare and social housing rolls for current residents from abroad, to weed out those who haven't put a shift in. If a previous government's incompetence resulted in you being allowed to stay, and an audit shows you've spent most of that time on welfare, home you go.


What is so radical and unspeakable about these ideas? Why won't any mainstream political party of TD address the issue? To my knowledge a handful of SF, Labour and FG local councillors who dared raise the issue were either censured or outright kicked out of their respective parties.

I mean, look at this. Just look (registration required)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/human-rights-challenge-issued-to-social-housing-policy-for-non-irish-f6vhfnr20?t=ie

A gypsy family arrive in the country, work for all of 3 months, spent two years in a homeless hub at god knows how much cost to the state while fighting legal aid cases to be entitled to dole (successfully) and entitled to subsidised housing (pending)

Or where were the pricks from Raise the Roof and Home Sweet Home when Kilkenny council was buying properties, knowing tenants would be evicted, because it decided some folks from abroad were a better class of people?

http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/ferrybank-housing-reshuffle/

What kind of a parallel ****ing universe am I living in where all this is acceptable conduct? Where politicians are so afraid of being labelled as racist that they will stand by and have people kicked out of their homes to make way for new arrivals?

Well, the problem would be worse if you suspend the freedom of movement and you get back the 500.000 Irish living in continental Europe and the 800.000 loving in GB Of do you want to apply it only one way?

vriesmays

Asking someone who's banned a question.

Bigbagofcans

vriesmays wrote: »

Asking someone who's banned a question.

I'm sure "Clint" will be back under another profile.

Mad_maxx

Stephen15 wrote: »

They are mostly run by immigrants for immigrants such as Polish or Halal shops. Tesco would still be in business from native Irish customers even if they didn't have a Polish section.



And that is why I'm in favour of controlled legal immigration and would like to see an Australian style points system where immigrants that fulfill the nessecary skills and come and work in the jobs where there is a shortage of skilled Irish workers.

Immigration should be used to benefit the host country not the immigrants themselves but that's not what's happening here.



Would be no loss. Gambling is a scourge on society that prays on the poor, weak and vulnerable.



Not what I've seen from any Poles I've come across most I've come across are looking to save as much money as possible for when they go back to Poland on holidays or permanently. Also the Polish economy is growing anyway so more are staying at home.

I'd say most of the latest fashion gear the Nigerians are wearing is obtained on the black market.

Poles are as tight as tuppence

SEPT 23 1989

The wide open space that was America in the 19th century needed people badly

How does that compare to a small island in 2019 that can barely look after their own?

Graham

We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe if that's your unusual criteria for immigration.

rosmoke

ClintPower wrote: »

So cards on the table regarding a few comments here and there people have made on other threads.

To anyone who has a maths ability beyond senior infants, a contributory factor to the shortage of affordable rental property in urban areas in Ireland is migration. It isn't the only cause, but it is the main one, yet not a single one of the politicians who do the loudest ranting about the housing crisis will touch it with a barge pole. Solidarity, PBP, Sinn Fein, they don't want to know. To admit the problem isn't to be racist to anyone- I don't hold a grudge towards anyone for coming here to improve their lot. But at a time of essentially national emergency, the crisis could be cooled nearly overnight with a few simple measures

- temporarily suspend EU free movement. Initiate a system of work permits- migrants are admitted according to their experience/ intended work sector. People are allowed in for specified skill shortage areas like construction and IT. People are not allowed in to work in warehouses for 9.80 an hour. End result- less rental pressure and employers can no longer take the piss with rates offered.

- pull out of any EU refugee relocation scheme that involves us providing housing out of our own taxes. A country that has people on social housing lists for 12 years that suddenly realises it can find Syrians a permanent home within 3 months of arrival is a sick society.

- audit the welfare and social housing rolls for current residents from abroad, to weed out those who haven't put a shift in. If a previous government's incompetence resulted in you being allowed to stay, and an audit shows you've spent most of that time on welfare, home you go.


What is so radical and unspeakable about these ideas? Why won't any mainstream political party of TD address the issue? To my knowledge a handful of SF, Labour and FG local councillors who dared raise the issue were either censured or outright kicked out of their respective parties.

I mean, look at this. Just look (registration required)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/human-rights-challenge-issued-to-social-housing-policy-for-non-irish-f6vhfnr20?t=ie

A gypsy family arrive in the country, work for all of 3 months, spent two years in a homeless hub at god knows how much cost to the state while fighting legal aid cases to be entitled to dole (successfully) and entitled to subsidised housing (pending)

Or where were the pricks from Raise the Roof and Home Sweet Home when Kilkenny council was buying properties, knowing tenants would be evicted, because it decided some folks from abroad were a better class of people?

http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/ferrybank-housing-reshuffle/

What kind of a parallel ****ing universe am I living in where all this is acceptable conduct? Where politicians are so afraid of being labelled as racist that they will stand by and have people kicked out of their homes to make way for new arrivals?

Nowhere in that article it's saying they are gypsies.
By calling Romanians gipsies it's like saying all Irish are travellers. How would that make you feel?

You're actually insulting gypsies as well btw, they don't consider themselves Romanians as they don't belong to Romania.

Why do I even bother ..

Cordell

You are right, not everyone from Romania is gypsy (like if that even needs to be said), but these ones are. But what they are does not matter, they should not be provided by the state with anything but a plane ticket back to Romania.

rosmoke

I'm Romanian and believe me, we don't want them there either IF they are gypsy.
Should we say instead let's send them to India? Cause that's where they're from btw if they're gypsy.

I honestly understand the point of this post but I don't think this is a solution.

rosmoke

rosmoke wrote: »

I'm Romanian and believe me, we don't want them there either IF they are gypsy.
Should we say instead let's send them to India? Cause that's where they're from btw if they're gypsy.

I honestly understand the point of this post but I don't think this is a solution.

The point is, though, that certain groups, who shall remain nameless, arrive here, and demand housing, welfare, and everything else they can get, whereas the Irish get to wait in line for services that they may, or may not, receive.

The perception by some people in the UK that it was happening in Britain caused some people to vote for Brexit - so, do we risk that here, or do we have an honest discussion about what is happening?

Graham

So you're saying it's an issue of perception rather than reality?

I think you're probably right.