Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

tuxy

tayto lover wrote: »

I don’t believe the washing of the clothes is a big issue.
The natural thing for a mother to do with stained clothes is to wash them ASAP before the stain is near impossible to get out. I seriously doubt either boys told their parents what happened in the days immediately after the murder and before Ana’s body was found. They were still meeting and I doubt either parents would have allowed that if they knew Ana they murdered Ana.

Yeah good points. Some of the reports are a little confusing but I believe it was Garda testimony in court that claimed the clothes being washed was an innocent act. So it was the Guada that wanted to make it clear the mother was innocent, the same Garda that did a very professional job of the whole investigation.

wiggle16

Strazdas wrote: »

Indeed : also, in his earlier Garda interviews he was trying to clear A's name and knock the investigation off track by saying neither person was with Ana when she was killed. Quite bizarre testimony from a supposedly innocent person who knew at this point his friend had murdered Ana.

And said that he met her "afterwards" and she seemed upset, and that he knew her phone was switched on because she told him the time.

He was trying to make them believe that she was still alive at a particular time when he knew she had just been killed.

From his statement:
When I saw Ana this time I said “hey” but she didn’t really say anything, she looked really down, she seemed upset and she had her head down. I walked on in front of her but we did not really talk. I did not see her or speak to her after that. I am not sure where she went but it looked as if she went back towards [where they had come from].
This was about 5.30pm or 5.40pm. I know Ana had her phone on her and it was switched on because I saw her checking it once or twice and she also told me the time at one stage. I did not see Ana or Boy A after that. I went straight home and did my homework. My father was home when I got back. The first I heard there was a problem with Ana was when the gardaí called to our house asking about her. I have no clue what happened to her.

Strazdas

tuxy wrote: »

Yeah good points. Some of the reports are a little confusing but I believe it was Garda testimony in court that claimed the clothes being washed was an innocent act. So it was the Guada that wanted to make it clear the mother was innocent, the same Garda that did a very professional job of the whole investigation.

If Ana's blood had shown up on B's clothes, it would merely have strengthened the case against him - however the jury were satisfied he was indeed present for the murder and did not run away.

Strazdas

wiggle16 wrote: »

And said that he met her "afterwards" and she seemed upset, and that he knew her phone was switched on because she told him the time.

He was trying to make them believe that she was still alive at a particular time when he knew she had just been killed.

From his statement:
When I saw Ana this time I said “hey” but she didn’t really say anything, she looked really down, she seemed upset and she had her head down. I walked on in front of her but we did not really talk. I did not see her or speak to her after that. I am not sure where she went but it looked as if she went back towards [where they had come from].
This was about 5.30pm or 5.40pm. I know Ana had her phone on her and it was switched on because I saw her checking it once or twice and she also told me the time at one stage. I did not see Ana or Boy A after that. I went straight home and did my homework. My father was home when I got back. The first I heard there was a problem with Ana was when the gardaí called to our house asking about her. I have no clue what happened to her.

And in a much later interview, he talks about how he knew A would protect Ana if she came under attack (from the made up attackers). This is a cold blooded killer he is talking about and he (B) is supposed to be completely innocent himself. No wonder the jury found against him.

Lucuma

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Reading again about the stories Boy B told, I wonder if there's bit of truths in amongst the lies.

Like he said Boy A and Ana went into the house and he walked away and then heard a scream that got muffled towards the end.

Could it be that Boy B was there and Ana walked into Boy A and he was wearing the mask and she screamed and he attacked her.

I was initially confused by this too.

No I think what must have happened was B arrived at the location, he sent Ana on in to the house where he told her A was waiting for her (to score with her) and he hung around. Then a few minutes later he also crossed the field into the house to have a look at what was going on

tayto lover

Lucuma wrote: »

I was initially confused by this too.

No I think what must have happened was B arrived at the location, he sent Ana on in to the house where he told her A was waiting for her (to score with her) and he hung around. Then a few minutes later he also crossed the field into the house to have a look at what was going on

I’d say he took his overall and gloves out of his backpack, put them on and went in and joined them knowing he’d leave no trace.

Smithwicks Man

Won’t let me quote the previous two posts that replied to me on my phone but have to say they’re both well made and make sense.

Maybe I was overestimating how high the threshold is to prove guilt in this case.

One thing’s for sure, the country is a lot safer with both locked up than on the streets.

Lucuma

rusty cole wrote: »

wind the clock say 10-12 years and they get out. They go home to a family who are 12 years older in their lives and very much changed by past events. For example have their siblings now written them off and resent their very existence having been burdened with carrying that dark stain by association!! surely the siblings friends would not go near the house as you wouldn't want to breathe the same air as the monsters. again, tough on the family to be fair.

They will have no friends and never will, lets be honest. they missed the teen and early 20's when you really grow with your friends from childhood.
They have no life to speak of or refer to, it's not like "eh mam I'm heading to lucan village to meet the old crew and catch up with my wild tales of a decade plus in sunny OZ!" they'll be moving into a spare room with the same death metal posters and everything else. They'll be freaks, all they know is where they've been.. they'll never fit in or recover ever.. and that's providing they're release is not reported and they're actually left alone..it's one thing to join the pack and throw one kick too many under the influence of drink (Annabelles)
or another choke a child in a blind rage.. but what they did before, during and after is something different, something Evil.

Wouldn't be surprised if having grown up in one, that prison is a welcome home to them, free from judgement and surrounded by like minds. A place where being them or like them is the norm or even celebrated.
I see them getting worse, re-offending or ending up dying by suicide..In fact sad as it is, I wouldn't be surprised if a family member takes a turn for the worse either and the whole family fabric tears apart.

Sadly when scum get out of prison they just associate with other scum.
Like this fella

Fall_Guy

Mellor wrote: »

Boy A could very well be a clinical psychopath.
I've no idea why you are making the leap from there to not being in control of their actions? A lack of guilt, empathy, and emotional attachments are traits of psychopathy. There's nothing about being a psychopath that relates to not being in control.

There's plenty of debate over the nature of psychopathy but it's not a completely out there notion that impaired impulse control is an element of psychopathy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3937069/

I suppose the leap I am making is more to do with the fact that none of us, for better or worse, are as in control of our actions as we would like to think. Everything we do / think / believe is the product of the biological / social / cultural /sensory influences that made us who we are up to this point in our life. None of us are completely the authors of our own story. And if there is, as the neurological research seems to suggests, that there is a neurological component that impinges on the behaviour of a "psychopath" who commits a horrific crime, their monstrous acts are not purely an ethical transgression in the way that they would be if a neurotypical person committed the same act. Even if we take the more accepted characterisation of psychopathy as a personality disorder, someone does not choose to have a personality disorder. I have a family member diagnosed with BPD. If I was to try and hold them to account for some of the things they have said to me when in a disregulated state I would have no relationship with them. But the fact is they didn't choose to have the problems they do, and I have no doubt that if they could click their fingers and remove that element of their personality they would, as it has ruined their life in truth.

Now I completely agree with people who have committed such horrific crimes as this one being detained indefinitely as they have proven themselves to pose an unacceptable risk to society. I just can't get behind the notion that they should be continually punished / tortured / treated inhumanely during their detention.

mrjoneill

splinter65 wrote: »

The Scottish schoolboy who was recently sentenced to a minimum of 27 years for the abduction rape and murder of a 6 year old girl was examined by 4 psychiatrists and found to have no mental illness and only a minor personality disorder.Some people just decide to be evil.
There’s no evidence of Ana being groomed at school otherwise we’d have heard about it.

That case in Scotland had commonality with the murder of Ana. In both cases (Boy A) they were acting out ghoulish characters. Boy B was very impressed at the ghoulish mask Boy A made saying it was so cool. There was appalling violence used in both cases too. Obv with Ana she was stronger and fought back harder which made the level of violence used on her so appalling. Hard to get ones head around in this case 2 13yr old & in Scotland a 15yr old A student, having a steady girlfriend.

mrjoneill

tuxy wrote: »

If that's what the Jury believes then they made the wrong decision.
However if they believe he was guilty based on what they saw in the videos then they made the correct decision.

Brendan Grehan SC for the prosecution said the evidence against Boy A was "overwhelming" and that the case against Boy B was made out by "lies, untruths and half-truths" he told during garda interviews.



Boy B admitted nothing that it could be considered a joint enterprise this was extrapolated by all the surrounding circumstances inc CCTV & witness evidence. Boys B interviews shows of his ability to lie, subterfuge & downright deceit.

AngeloArgue

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I just can't get behind the notion that they should be continually punished / tortured / treated inhumanely during their detention.

Where does that happen in Ireland?

If anything we treat criminals as the real victims

slavetothegrind

are you for real, this is the best country in the world for them in terms of outcome. Soft as you like....guaranteed.

slavetothegrind

At Fall guy

Sardonicat

mrjoneill wrote: »

Brendan Grehan SC for the prosecution said the evidence against Boy A was "overwhelming" and that the case against Boy B was made out by "lies, untruths and half-truths" he told during garda interviews.



Boy B admitted nothing that it could be considered a joint enterprise this was extrapolated by all the surrounding circumstances inc CCTV & witness evidence. Boys B interviews shows of his ability to lie, subterfuge & downright deceit.

Indeed, Boy A's murderous violence horrifies and sickens me but Boy B's cool, manipulative deceit chills me to the core. What a twisted partnership they made.

Fall_Guy

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Where does that happen in Ireland?

If anything we treat criminals as the real victims

Sorry, this thread is understandably, full of many many conversations and the original comment I had replied to that Mellor in turn replied to, was someone saying that they wanted to give "cold blooded killers as hard a time as possible in prison". My opinion differed as I think detention for as long as is necessary is enough (and in many cases (ie - the case of "cold blooded killers") I feel that it is probably a case of the necessary length of time being for the rest of their lives.

The Specialist

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Sorry, this thread is understandably, full of many many conversations and the original comment I had replied to that Mellor in turn replied to, was someone saying that they wanted to give "cold blooded killers as hard a time as possible in prison". My opinion differed as I think detention for as long as is necessary is enough (and in many cases (ie - the case of "cold blooded killers") I feel that it is probably a case of the necessary length of time being for the rest of their lives.

Na in an ideal world these 2 scumbags would be swinging from the rope already. No length of prison sentence is satisfactory, they don’t deserve to exist.

Fall_Guy

slavetothegrind wrote: »

are you for real, this is the best country in the world for them in terms of outcome. Soft as you like....guaranteed.

See above post, I wasn't making a general comment and claiming that the Irish system will treat them inhumanely, I was responding to an earlier poster who was in favour of such. As I said above, I would be in favour of longer sentences than are given out in Ireland for anyone who presents as being a danger to society. I still feel that within the confines of a prison that people's basic human rights should be upheld.

Lucuma

Boggles wrote: »

I know.

Do you think the detectives might have not thought of that too and in examining the Boy B's phone may have raised some suspicion if it had just been activated on May 14th?

But what could they have done about it even if they had discovered that his non-smart-phone had been activated on 14th May? If the evidence is gone, it's gone

slavetothegrind

Fall_Guy wrote: »

See above post, I wasn't making a general comment and claiming that the Irish system will treat them in humanely, I was responding to an earlier poster who was in favour of such. As I said above, I would be in favour of longer sentences than are given out in Ireland for anyone who presents as being a danger to society. I still feel that within the confines of a prison that people's basic human rights should be upheld.

Sorry Fall guy misunderstood you , my fault.

Fall_Guy

The Specialist wrote: »

Na in an ideal world these 2 scumbags would be swinging from the rope already. No length of prison sentence is satisfactory, they don’t deserve to exist.

You know what, I could almost see death penalty being the best option for people who are so damaged that they can commit such horrific acts. But I would be looking at it as a mercy killing rather than any great sense of justice being served.

P.Walnuts

I wonder what percentage of the people asking for the two boys to be hanged from the nearest tree would actually carry out their actions, I'm guessing less than 1%

The Specialist

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I wonder what percentage of the people asking for the two boys to be hanged from the nearest tree would actually carry out their actions, I'm guessing less than 1%

Give me 2 lengths of rope and a tree and I’ll do it without even a second thought.

gozunda

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Can’t help but cringe at people who cry outrage against those who commit heinous crimes under the guise of caring about the aggrieved and then when there are legitimately proposed solutions to limit the grief of the victims relations they cry foul once more.It’s up there with thosesuggesting murders should be hung, drawn and quartered etc. Maybe come into the 21st century for an adult debate on serious topics.

"Outrage"? No. Bunkum" yes - in my own opinion as to some of the wild speculations with regard to this case and illogical questioning of the final verdicts as highlighted. That stands.

But exactly where was 'outrage' (sic) cried? Or 'hung, drawn, quatered' referred to in my comments?

Looks like a lot more hyperbole tbh.

Back on topic though - I am interested in why the crusade to persuade all and sundry the gardai interview procedures require reform, the law was not properly applied, the judge got it wrong and the jury didn't have a clue?

Maybe come into the 21st century for an adult discussion on the murder and conviction of the case in question

tuxy

The Specialist wrote: »

Na in an ideal world these 2 scumbags would be swinging from the rope already. No length of prison sentence is satisfactory, they don’t deserve to exist.

You don't have to look too far to find that ideal world. Vigilante justice is very common in Africa, of course the issue is you also have many innocents handing from rope in these places. Saudi Arabia would also be a good example if you want to see this kind of law imposed but from government and not vigilantes.

Lucuma

Sardonicat wrote: »

It's nothing new. It was reported on at the time. And it was entirely innocent and unrelated.

Boy B said Ana showed him the picture of herself bound & gagged as they walked through the park. Which may not be true - he may have seen it online at another stage. But he had obviously seen it because he couldn't have known about it independent from it being mentioned by Ana's mother in her testimony otherwise.
To me it was just another sad fact of the case. You're allowed to be an insecure, confused teenager that craves attention. You're allowed to do weird things. We're all a bit weird in our own way and can live our whole lives that way!

It doesn't mean anyone else has a right to take your life

gozunda

tuxy wrote: »

Are you planning on turning your fantasies into bedtime story books?

You know he lost the phones well before the incident and that's why his parents had given him a basic non smart phone but he usually left that at home anyway.

Link pls

mrjoneill

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I know the prosecution believed it, show me where they’ve proven it?

His behaviour and comments after the fact seem to have been what has convinced most people of his guilt

I don't agree, the totality of Boys B actions evidence acquired from CCTY & witness statement led to believe he as was active accomplice. As for his interviews they are lie after lie, with half truths interspersed with pure deceit while coming across as the helpful boy next door. He really believed he was so clever he could pull this crime off.



I'm sure Boy A and Boy B planned it down to the last detail with the "mask" being central to their plan, acting out some character. but they overlooked key factors such as CCTV and witness evidence. They never expected such a spirited defense by Ana. Boy A thought he would not even come under suspicion and made no attempt to destroy evidence he had control off. Even if their plan went off without a hitch and Ana was alone at home and her dad didn't see anyone call, witnesses identified her in the park with a boy and CCTV would be trawled to identify who it was. In the end their plan showed such naivety.

mrjoneill

slavetothegrind wrote: »

are you for real, this is the best country in the world for them in terms of outcome. Soft as you like....guaranteed.

They never penciled into it being found out so punishment for the crime never entered the equation

Monumental

mrjoneill wrote: »

They were only found guilty now

Local people would have known who they were from day one , why the sudden need to relocate ,please dont tell me they are looking for sympathy their sons committed the most horrific crime and they stood by them during their trial forcing Anna's parents to listen to horrendous evidence .If relocation could bring Ana back I'm sure her parents would do it in a heartbeat without complaint